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The Complete Testimony, 

Affidavits and Exhibits 

Presented before 

The American Commission on Conditions 
in Ireland 

Transcribed and Annotated 



Official Reporter to the Commission 

aoCTOTf x 


Bliss Building 
Washington, D. C. 

SINCE the sole purpose for the organiza- 
tion of the American Commission on 
Conditions in Ireland and the publication 
of this volume of Evidence is to let the 
American people know the facts about the 
Irish crisis, will you not render the service 
of bringing it to the attention of your 
friends? Evidence on Conditions in Ireland 
may he had for $1 in art paper covers, $1.50 
cloth bound; and the supplemental Report 
of the Commission (152 pages, illustrated) 
for 35c per copy. Orders may be sent to 
Albert Coyle, Official Reporter to the Com- 
mission, Bliss Building, Washington, D. C. 



The American Commission on Conditions in Ireland was selected 
by and derives its authority from a committee of distinguished 
Americans brought together through the efforts of the editors of 
the New York Nation to perform the service of ascertaining for the 
American people the truth about conditions in Ireland, which in- 
creasingly menace the friendly relations that have existed between 
Great Britain and the United States. In order to secure an impar- 
tial and distinguished body for this investigation, every United 
States Senator, every State governor, every member of the higher 
clergy of the Protestant, Roman Catholic and Jewish churches, and 
the leading educators, journalists, editors, mayors, and publicists 
of the country were extended an invitation to become members of 
this committee, over 150 of whom accepted, including 5 State gov- 
ernors, 11 United States Senators, 13 Congressmen, the mayors of 
15 large cities, the late Cardinal Gibbons. Archbishop Keane. 7 
Protestant Episcopal bishops, 4 Roman Catholic bishops. 4 Meth- 
odist bishops, and other eminent public men and women, repre- 
senting a broad diversity of racial stocks and political and religious 
beliefs, and covering geographically 36 states of the Union. 

The personnel of the Committee of One Hundred Fifty on Con- 
ditions in Ireland is as follows: 

Jane Addams, Hull House, Chicago, 111. 

Hon. Charles F. Amidon, U. S. District Judge, Fargo, N. D. 

U. S. Senator Henry F. Ashurst, Prescott, Arizona. 

Bishop James Atkins, M. E. Church, South, Nashville, Tenn. 

Mary Austin, writer and lecturer. New York City. 

Abby Scott Baker, Washington, D. C. 

Governor Simon Bamberger, Salt Lake City, Utah. 

Abraham Baroff, International Ladies' Garment Workers' L : nion. New- 
York City. 

Rt. Rev. Troy Beatty, P. E. Bishop of Tennessee. 

Mayor C. F. Beck, Akron, Ohio. 

Mayor Martin Behrman, New Orleans, La. 

Fred G. Biedenkapp, Brotherhood of Metal Workers, New York. 

William Harman Black, former member National War Labor Board, New- 
York City. 

Alice Stone Blackwell, Boston, Mass. 

Harriet Stanton Blatch, New York City. 

Lucy Branham, New York City. 

T. M. Budish, United Cloth. Hat, and Cap Makers of America, New York 

Rt. Rev. Hugh L. Burleson, P. E. Bishop of South Dakota. 

Rt. Rev. C. E. Byrne, Bishop of Galveston, Texas. 

Governor Thomas E. Campbell, Phoenix, Arizona. 

Rt. Rev. John J. Cantwell, Bishop of Monterey and Los Angeles. 

U. S. Senator Arthur Capper, Topeka, Kansas. 

Governor Robert D. Carey, Cheyenne, Wyoming. 



Frank E. Carstarphen, Special Counsel for the Federal Government, New 

York City. 
J. J. Castellini. merchant, Cincinnati, Ohio. 
Parley P. Christensen, Presidential candidate, Farmer-Labor Party, Salt 

Lake City, Utah. 
Professor Arthur C. Cole, Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio. 
George W. Coleman, President of the Open Forum National Council. 

Boston, Mass. 
Martin Conboy, former Director of the Draft, New York City. 
Henry W. L. Dana, Cambridge, Mass. 
Rev. William Horace Day, former Moderator of the National Council of 

Congregational Churches of U. S., Bridgeport, Conn. 
Rt. Rev. E. T. Demby, P. E. Suffragan Bishop of the Colored Race. 

Province of the Southwest, Little Rock, Ark. 
Dr. W. E. B. Du Bois, editor of The Crisis, New York City. 
Professor Horace A. Eaton, Syracuse University, Syracuse, N. Y. 
Governor Edward I. Edwards, Trenton, N. J. 
John Lovejoy Elliott, Hudson Guild, New York City. 
Hon. J. W. Folk, former Governor of Missouri, Washington, D. C. 
Mrs. Andre Fouilhoux, Short Hills, N. J. 

Clemens J. France, former Collector of the Port of Seattle, Wash. 
Royal W. France, lawyer, New York City. 
Governor Lynn J. Frazier, Bismarck, N. D. 
Zona Gale, writer, Portage, Wis. 

John F. Galvin, former Chairman, Board of Water Supply, New York. 
Gilson Gardner, Washington correspondent, Newspaper Enterprise Ass'n. 
His Eminence James Cardinal Gibbons, Baltimore, Md. (deceased). 
Mayor C. P. Gillen, Newark, N. J. 
Arthur Gleason, writer, New York City. 

Hon. James H. Graham, former Congressman, Springfield, 111. 
Mayor Frank J. Hague, Jersey City, N. J. 
William Hard, writer, Washington, D. C. 

Rt. Rev. Robert Le Roy Harris, P. E. Bishop of Marquette, Mich. 
Dr. Gillette Hayden, Columbus, Ohio. 

Professor Carlton J. Hayes, Columbia University, New York. 
Mayor J. J. Hayes, Vicksburg, Miss. 

William Randolph Hearst, newspaper publisher. New York City. 
Charles B. Henderson, former U. S. Senator, Elko, Nevada. 
Mayor Joseph Herman, Newport, Ky. 
Morris Hillquit, lawyer, New York City. 
Rabbi E. E. Hirsch, Professor of Rabbinical Literature and Philosophy, 

University of Chicago. 
Mayor Daniel W. Hoan, Milwaukee, Wis. 
Judge George Holmes, Omaha, Nebr. 
Rev. John Haynes Holmes, President Free Religious Association, New 

York City. 
Rt. Rev. J. M. Horner, P. E. Bishop of Asheville, N. C. 
Frederic C. Flowe, former Commissioner of Immigration of the Port of 

New York. 
Bishop John Hurst, Methodist Episcopal Church, Baltimore, Md. 
Mayor John F. Hylan, New York City. 

Dr. Edmund J. James, President Emeritus, University of Illinois. 
U. S. Senator Hiram W. Johnson, San Francisco, California. 
James Weldon Johnson, Secretary of the National Association for the 

Advancement of Colored People, New York City. 
William H. Johnston, President International Association of Machinists, 

Washington, D. C. 
Rev. Paul Jones, formerly P. E. Bishop of Utah, New York City. 
Dr. David Starr Jordan, Chancellor Emeritus, Leland Stanford Jr. Uni- 
versity, California. 
Most Rev. James J. Keane, Archbishop of Dubuque, Iowa. 
Mayor H. W. Kiel, St. Louis, Mo. 

Edwin P. Kilroe, Assistant District Attorney, New York City. 
Richard R. Kilroy, editor, Anaconda Standard, Butte, Mont. 

Dr. George W. Kirchwey, Head of Department of Criminology, New York 
School of Social Work, New York City. 

Rev. G. S. Lackland, Denver, Colo. 

U. S. Senator Robert M. La Follette, Wisconsin. 

Hon. F. H. La Guardia, President of the Board of Aldermen, N. Y. City. 

John S. Leahy, St. Louis, Mo. 

Owen R. Lovejoy, General Secretary, National Child Labor Committee, 
New York City. 

Professor Robert Morss Lovett, University of Chicago. 

Hazel MacKave, Director of the Bureau of Pageantrv and the Drama, 
Y. W. C. A., New York City. 

Rabbi Judah L. Magnes, Chairman of the Executive Committee, Jewish 
Community (Kehillah) of New York City. 

Mayor James B. McCavitt, Anaconda, Mont. 

Allen McCurdy. Secretary of the National Executive Committee. Commit- 
tee of 48, New York City. 

U. S. Senator Charles L. McNary, Salem, Oregon. 

Bertha H. Mailly, Executive Secretary, Rand School of Social Science, 
New York City. 

Hon. Dudley Field Malone, former Assistant Secretary of the U. S. 
Treasury, New York City. 

Basil M. Manlv. Director of the Scripps Economic Bureau, Washington. 
D. C. 

Mayor Elliott Marshall, St. Joseph, Mo. 

Anne Martin, publicist, Reno, Nev. 

Congressman William E. Mason, Chicago, 111. 

James H. Maurer, President, Pennsylvania State Federation of Labor, 
Harrisburg, Pa. 

Mrs. Katherine M. Meserole, Bellport, Long Island, N. Y. 

John E. Milholland, business man and writer. New York City. 

A. P. Moore, editor of the Pittsburgh Leader, Pittsburgh, Pa. 

Mrs. Agnes H. Morey, Brookline, Mass. 

Bishop H. C. Morrison, M. E. Church, South, Leesburg, Fla. 

William J. Mulligan, Supreme Director of Knights of Columbus. Thomp- 
sonville. Conn. 

Mrs. William Spencer Murray, Catskill, N. Y. 

Professor William A. Nitze, head of the Department of Romance Lan- 
guages and Literatures, University of Chicago. 

Edward N. Nockels, associate editor, The New Majority, Chicago, 111. 

Rt. Rev. John J. O'Connor, Bishop of Newark, N. J. 

Daniel C. O'Flaherty, Richmond, Va. 

Rt. Rev. Charles T. Olmsted, P. E. Bishop of Central New York. 

M. O'Neill. Akron. Ohio. 

Rt. Rev. Edward L. Parsons. P. E. Bishop Coadjutor of California, San 
Francisco, Calif. 

Captain Julius C. Peyser, Washington, D. C. 

U. S. Senator James D. Phelan, San Francisco, Calif. 

Rev. Watson L. Phillips, Shelton, Conn. 

Amos R. E. Pinchot, lawyer and publicist, New York City. 

Mayor Willis H. Plunkett, Phoenix, Ariz. 

Rev. Levi M. Powers, Washington, D. C. 

Mayor George A. Quigley. New Britain, Conn. 

Mayor Edward W. Quinn, Cambridge, Mass. 

Congressman Charles E. Randall, Kenosha, Wis. 

U. S. Senator Joseph E. Ransdell, Louisiana. 

Mrs. James Rector, Columbus, Ohio. 

Raymond Robins, formerly Commissioner in command of the American 
Red Cross Mission to Russia, Chicago, 111. 

Gilbert E. Roe, lawyer, New York City. 

Mrs. John Rogers, Jr., New York City. 

Rev. John A. Ryan, Professor of Theology, Catholic University of Amer- 
ica, Washington, D. C. 


Professor Ferdinand Schevill, Professor of Modern History, University 
of Chicago. 

Rose Schneidermann, Woman's Trade Union League, New York. 

Mavor Cornell Schrieber, Toledo, Ohio. 

Hon. R. O. Sharon, Peoria, 111. 

Congressman Isaac R. Sherwood, Toledo, Ohio. 

Dr. John S. Simon. St. Louis, Mo. 

J. C. Skemp, International Union of Painters and Decorators, Lafayette, 

Mayor E. P. Smith, Omaha, Nebr. 

Mrs. Anna Garlin Spencer, minister, educator, White Plains, N, Y. 

U. S. Senator Selden P. Spencer, St. Louis, Missouri. 

Emma Steghagen, Woman's Trade Union League, Chicago. 111. 

Doris Stevens, New York City. 

Mayor Peter F. Sullivan, Worcester. Mass. 

Rev. Norman M. Thomas, editor of The World Tomorrow, New York City. 

Richard C. Tolman, Associate Director Fixed Nitrogen Research Labora- 
tory, War Department, Washington, D. C. 

Albert B. Unger, Assistant District Attorney, New York City. 

Hon. Tames K. Vardaman, former U. S. Senator. Jackson, Miss. 

Mrs. Henry Villard, Dobbs Ferry, N. Y. 

Congressman Edward Voight, Sheboygan, Wis. 

John H. Walker, President Illinois State Federation of Labor, Springfield, 

U. S. Senator David I. Walsh. Boston, Mass. 

J. Barnard Walton, General Secretary, Advancement Committee, General 
Conference of the Religious Society of Friends, Philadelphia, Pa. 

Dr. James P. Warbasse, President of the Cooperative League of America. 
New York City. 

William Allen White, editor of the Emporia Gazette, Emporia, Kansas. 

Rt. Rev. Cortlandt Whitehead, P. E. Bishop of Pittsburgh, Pa. 

L. Hollingsworth Wood, lawyer. New York City. 


The foregoing members of the Committee on Conditions in Ire- 
land elected from their number a commission of five, with power to 
enlarge its personnel by calling other members of the parent com- 
mittee to aid it in the prosecution of a public inquiry into conditions 
in Ireland. It was thus assured that the Commission entrusted with 
the task of making this important inquiry should be composed of 
persons of national distinction and of ability and integrity beyond 
question. The Commission as finally constituted consists of the 
following members: 

L. Hollingsworth Wood, Chairman — Lawyer and publicist. A graduate 
of Haverford College, Pennsylvania, and Columbia University Law School, 
New York City, Mr. Wood was admitted to the bar of the State of New 
York in 1899, and has distinguished himself in the practice of law in New 
York City. Besides his professional attainments, Mr. Wood has devoted 
himself unselfishly to a number of humanitarian causes. He is a member 
of the American Civil Liberties Union, vice-president of the Board of 
Trustees of Fisk University, Nashville, Tennessee ; member of the Board 
of Managers of Haverford College ; president of the National Urban 
League for the Improvement of Race Relations Within the United States ; 
and an influential member of the Society of Friends (Quakers). Mr. 
Wood has traveled extensively in Europe, Asia, and Africa; he is one of 
the few Americans who have toured England on a cricket team ; and he 
has visited Ireland a half-dozen times to study the development of the 
Irish Cooperative Movement. 


Dr. Frederic C. Howe, J 'ice-Chair man — Author, attorney, economist. 
Dr. Howe is one of the foremost American authorities in political econ- 
omy. His public career began with the practice of law in Cleveland, Ohio, 
serving in turn as city councillor and state senator. He was appointed 
special United States Commissioner to investigate municipal ownership in 
Great Britain (1905) ; professor of law at the Cleveland College of Law; 
special lecturer on Taxation at Western Reserve University; lecturer on 
Municipal Administration and Politics at the University of Wisconsin ; 
director of People's Institute, New York (1911-14) ; Commissioner of 
Immigration of the Port of New York (1914-19) ; director, Conference on 
Democratic Control of Railroads (1919-20) ; and since then he has served 
as executive secretary of the All-American Cooperative Commission. Dr. 
Howe is the author of numerous books on taxation, municipal government, 
and the war. His familiarity with European conditions is derived from 
graduate studies in England and Germany, from frequent trips as investi- 
gator and writer, and recently as an expert on international affairs at- 
tached to the American delegation at the Paris Peace Conference. 

Jane Addams — Author, lecturer, sociologist. Miss Addams is not only 
America's most distinguished woman sociologist, but one whose interna- 
tional contributions have made her as well known in Europe as at home. 
After graduation from Rockford College, Miss Addams spent several 
years in Europe studying applied sociology and political economy, and 
returned to become head of Hull House, Chicago (1889), which became 
the model for the development of social settlement centers throughout the 
cities of the nation. Among many outstanding public services, Miss 
Addams acted as president of the National Conference of Charities and 
Corrections (1909), and president of the International Congress of 
Women in Switzerland (1919). She is now chairman of the Women's 
Peace Party, the International Committee of W'omen for Permanent Peace, 
the Women's International League, and a member of the Executive Com- 
mittee of the American Union Against Militarism, and many other reform 
organizations. In recognition of Miss Addams' high public services, the 
honorary degree of LL. D. has been conferred on her by the University of 
Wisconsin and Smith College, and the A. M. degree by Yale University. 
Miss Addams is the author of numerous well-known books on sociology 
and political economy, and is an eminent lecturer on these subjects. 

James H. Maurer — Labor leader, writer, legislator. Mr. Maurer has 
been for many years the president of the Pennsylvania State Federation 
of Labor, which has become under his guidance one of the most progres- 
sive labor organizations in America. He is a well-known authority on 
workmen's compensation, workers' education, cooperation, and other labor 
problems. He is a member of the Executive Board of Labor Age, and 
serves as director for many other organizations striving for the betterment 
of the working classes. Mr. Maurer represented the Reading district for 
a number of terms in the Pennsylvania State Legislature. 

Major Oliver P. Newman — Journalist, lecturer, sociologist. Major 
Newman was born and reared in the Middle West, where he received his 
education until his appointment to the National Military Academy at West 
Point. He followed the profession of journalism in the Middle West for 
a number of year, distinguished himself also as an author and short- 
story writer. Major Newman's broad humanitarian interests led him into 
social service work, where he made a substantial contribution to American 
sociology as one of the founders of the Social Unit Organization. He is 
now serving as vice-president of the National Community Board, and is 
well known as a lecturer on social service and political economy. He was 
appointed by President Wilson to the Board of Commissioners, the gov- 
erning body of the District of Columbia, and served as President of the 
Board from 1913 to 1917, resigning to take up the command of a battalion 
of field artillery following America's entrance into the late war. Major 
Newman served ten months in France, and since his return to civil life 
has continued in the profession of journalism at the national capital. 


U. S. Senator George W. Norris — Educator, jurist, statesman. Senator 
Norris began his career as a teacher, was graduated from Valparaiso 
University law school, and admitted to the bar in 1883. After serving 
three terms as prosecuting attorney, he was twice elected district judge of 
the Fourteenth District (1895, 1899), which position he held when nomi- 
nated for Congress (1902). Since that time Senator Norris has continu- 
ously represented the people of Nebraska at Washington, serving in five 
successive Congresses prior to his election to the Senate in 1912, and his 
re-election in 1918. His fairness and fearlessness in public life have won 
him the esteem of the nation. 

Rev. Norman M. Thomas — Minister, lecturer, editor. A graduate of 
Princeton University and Union Theological Seminary, New York, Rev. 
Thomas officiated as associate minister of the Brick Presbyterian Church. 
New York (1910-11) ; minister of the East Harlem Presbyterian Church 
and director of the American Parish Among Immigrants (1911-18) ; mem- 
ber of the Fellowship of Reconciliation, and editor of The World To- m 
morrow (1918—). Rev. Thomas is a prominent lecturer on economic 
and political reform, and has rendered conspicuous service since the war 
with a number of reconstruction organizations. 

U. S. Senator David I. Walsh — Senator Walsh's public services in- 
clude membership in the Massachusetts House of Representatives, Lieu- 
tenant-Governor of Massachusetts, and twice Governor of that State (1914, 
1915). He was elected delegate-at-large to the Democratic National Con- 
vention, 1912, 1916, and 1920; delegate-at-large to the Massachusetts 
Constitutional Convention, 1917-1918; elected to the United States Senate, 
1918. Senator Walsh has distinguished himself both in the study and 
practice of law, receiving the Bachelor of Laws degree from Boston Uni- 
versity School of Law in 1897, and subsequently the honorary Doctor of 
Laws degree from Holy Cross College, Notre Dame University, and 
Georgetown University. 


Dr. William MacDonald, Secretary. 
Harold Kellock, Publicity. 
Albert Coyle, Official Reporter. 


District of Columbia, ss.: 

I, Albert Coyle, do hereby certify that I am Official Reporter to the 
American Commission on Conditions in Ireland ; that in said capacity I 
personally attended each and all of the hearings held by said Com- 
mission in the City of Washington, District of Columbia, from November 
18. 1920, to January 21, 1921, inclusive, save and except Session Two of 
the Fifth Hearings, held January 14, 1921 ; that I personally took down in 
shorthand the complete testimony and other proceedings before said Com- 
mission at each and all of the aforesaid hearings; and that the follow- 
ing is a full, true, and correct transcript of the shorthand notes taken by 
me at said hearings, excepting only irrelevant and immaterial remarks 
extraneous to the inquiry. 

I further certify that all affidavits, depositions, signed statements, and 
other documents submitted in evidence to the said Commission by wit- 
nesses and counsel at the aforesaid hearings were given over into my cus- 
tody and keeping; that same were appropriately marked and designated by 
me for purposes of identification ; that I have kept same continuously in 
my care and custody; and that the copies of same reproduced in the fol- 
lowing transcript are true and correct copies of the original documents 
submitted in evidence as aforesaid. 

IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto set my hand and seal this 
eighth day of May. A. D. 1921. 

(Seal) Albert Coyle. 

District of Columbia, ss.: 

We, Alexander H. Gait and Harry G. Wilbur, do hereby certify that 
we were engaged by the American Commission to Investigate Conditions 
in Ireland, on January 14, 1921, to make a stenographic report of its pro- 
ceedings of that day at the Hotel LaFayette in Washington, D. C. ; that 
we made such report and that the transcript is a true and accurate record 
to the best of our knowledge and belief, and was duly verified by the wit- 
nesses after having been reduced to typewriting. 

Alexander H. Gai.t. 
Harry G. Wilbur. 

Sworn to and subscribed before me this 8th day of May, 1921. 

(Seal) Joseph M. Tighe. 

Notary Public for District of Columbia. 

My Commission expires April. 1923. 




The Committee of One Hundred Fifty on Conditions in Ireland Ill 

Personnel of the Commission on Conditions in Ireland VI 

Preface IX 

Attest of Transcript XI 

Index of Witnesses : 

Irish citizens indicated by (I) 

British citizens indicated by (B) 

American citizens indicated by (A) 


Session One — November 18, 1920 

Denis Morgan ( I ) 6 

Chairman of the Urban Council of Thurles 
Rev. Michael M. English (A) 53 

Whitehall, Montana 
John F. Martin (A) 69 

Attorney, Green Bay, Wisconsin 
Rev. James H. Cotter (A) 75 

Clergyman and Editor, Ironton, Ohio 

Session Two — November 19, 1920 

John Derham (I) 92 

Town Councillor of Balbriggan 
Mrs. Agnes B. King (A) 120 

Ironton, Ohio 
Francis Hackett (A) • 137 

Associate Editor, "The New Republic," New York City ; inves- 
tigated conditions in Ireland for the New York "World" 
Signe Toksvig (Mrs. Hackett) (A) 174 

Associate Editor, "The New Republic." New York City 


Session One — December 8, 1920 

Miss Mary MacSwiney (I) 183 

Sister of the late Lord Mayor of Cork 

Session Two — December 9, 1920 

Mrs. Muriel MacSwiney ( I ) 265 

Widow of the late Lord Mayor of Cork 
Miss Mary MacSwiney 303 

Session Three — December 10, 1920 

Miss Mary MacSwiney 345 

P. J. Guilfoil (A) 366 

Pittsburgh, Pennsyhan ia 
Daniel Francis Crowley (I) 376 

Member of Royal Irish Constabulary from November, 1914, 
to June, 1920 
Tohn Tangney (I) 390 

Member of R. I. C, October, 1915, to July. 1920 
Mrs. Anna Murphey (I) 402 

New York City. (Husband an Irish citizen) 
John Joseph Caddan (I) 407 

Member of R. I. C, February to November, 1920 
Daniel Galvin (I) 421 

Member of R. I. C, October, 1907, to July, 1920 




Session One — December 15. 1920 

Miss Ruth Russell (A) _ 428 

Chicago. Investigated conditions in Ireland for the Chicago 
'■Daily News" 

Hon.. Laurence Ginnell ( I ) : 462 

Former Member of British Parliament ; Member of Dail 
Eireann and of the Irish Republican Cabinet 

Session Two — December 16. 1920 

Miss Nellie Craven (A) 506 

Washington, D. C. Cousin of Michael Walsh, murdered Coun- 
cillor of Galway, Ireland 
Paul J. Furnas (A) 517 

Nezv York City. Member of the Society of Friends 


Session One — December 21. 1920 

Mrs. Annot Erskine Robinson (B) 530 

Manchester, England. Representative of British Branch, 
Women's International League 

Miss Ellen C. Wilkinson (B) 578 

Manchester, England. Representative of British Branch, 
Women's International League 

Session Two — December 22. 1920 

Miss Susanna Walsh (I) 627 

Sister-in-law of Aid. Thomas MacCurtain, late Lord Mayor 
of Cork 

.Miss Anna Walsh ( I ) 653 

Sister-in-law of Aid. Thomas MacCurtain, late Lord Mayor 
of Cork 

Daniel J. Broderick (A) 664 

Chicago, Illinois 

Session Three — December 23. 1920 

Mrs. Michael Mohan (A) 684 

Corona. Nezv York 
John Charles Clarke (A) 699 

Corona, New York 


Session One — January 13. 1921 
Hon. Donal O'Callaghan (I) " 718 

Lord Mayor of Cork 

Session Two — January 14. 1921 

Lord Mayor Donal O'Callaghan 798 

Thomas Nolan (I) 852 

Merchant, Galway 
Emil Pezolt (A) 869 

Oakland, California. Junior Engineer on U. S. S. "West 
Henry Turk (A) 879 

San Francisco. Messman on U. S. "West Cannon" 
Harold Johnson (A) 882 

Bucks County. Pennsylvania. Sailor on U. S. S. "West Cannon" 


Ralph Taylor (A) 886 

Scott Township, Pennsylvania, Messman on U. S. S. "IV est 

Peter J. MacSwiney (A) 889 

New York City. Brother of the late Lord Mayor of Cork 


Session One — January 19, 1921 

Frank Dempsey ( I ,) 893 

Chairman of the Urban Council of Mallow 
J. L. Fawsitt (I) 935 

Consul-General of the Irish Republic, New York City 

Session Two — January 21, 1921 

Miss Louie Bennett (I) 979 

Dublin. Secretary of Irish Branch, Women's International 

Miss Caroline Townshend (I) 1015 

Bandon, County Cork. Officer of the Gaelic League 

Exhibit I. Memorandum on English Armed Aggression against the 

Irish People, Resulting in the Killing of Policemen 1053 

Exhibit II. Memorandum on British Atrocities in Ireland, 1916 

through 1920 1059 

Exhibit III. Terrorism in Tuam 1060 

Exhibit IV. Official Falsehood to Conceal Murder: Case of Connor 

Clune 1064 

Subject Index 1069 


Page 167, line 33 : for iogS read 1908. 

Page 205, line 19, and page 206, line 25 : for Sid read Sir. 

Page 336, line 16 : for co-called read so-called. 

Page 417, line 30: for Roddy read Ruddy. 

Page 564, line 4: read And impropriety read Any impropriety. 

Page 635, line 30: for Maura read Maun. 

Page 900, for line 41 read: / happened to be in Tralec at the time. On tin 

first time they came . 

Page 908, line 12: for Police read Military. 







Presented to the 

American Commission of Inquiry on Conditions 

in Ireland 

Jane Addams 
James H. Maurer 
David I. Walsh 


Frederic C. Howe 

Acting Chairman 


Session One 

Before the Commission, sitting at the Hotel Lafayette, Washing- 
ton, D. C, November 18, 1920. 

Session called to order by Chairman Howe at 10:22 a. m. 


Chairman Howe: This is the first session of the hearings of the 
American Commission on Ireland. The American Commission on 
Ireland was conceived of and started by the New York Nation in 
September last as a result of the growing body of public opinion 
in this country that was seriously concerned over conditions in 
Ireland. Something like one hundred fifty people, representing 
all phases of thought, selected from various professions, mostly 
persons who had been identified with public-spirited enterprises in 
this country, were associated into this Committee of One Hundred 
Fifty, which was the body from which this Commission has sprung, 
— elected by this larger Committee. A complete list of the one 

1 The Commission at its first sitting elected Hon. Joseph W. Folk, 
former Governor of Missouri, as Chairman, and Dr. Frederic C. Howe 
as Vice-Chairman. Because Mr. Folk felt that his legal relations with 
the Egyptian Nationalists might embarrass the Commission, he resigned, 
and Dr. Howe served as Acting Chairman until the addition to the Com- 
mission of Major Newman, Mr. Thomas, and Mr. Wood, the latter being 
then elected Chairman of the Commission. 

hundred fifty was sent to all those so selected, and they in turn 
were asked to vote from out of that larger list for a smaller Com- 
mission to hear testimony. It was in the nature of a referendum 
vote. The votes as they came in were tabulated, and this Commis- 
sion came into existence in that way. It was picked by one hundred 
fifty people. 

The Commission immediately got into communication with the 
British Embassy in Washington; with Mr. de Valera; it cabled to 
England and cabled to Ireland to secure witnesses who might appear 
before the Commission and give testimony. A number of those 
witnesses are here today. 


The motives which called this Commission into existence, and its 
purposes as formulated by the Commission, are as follows: 

The American Commission on Ireland, which now opens its first 
hearings, was elected by referendum vote from a larger committee 
of one hundred fifty eminent Americans organized through the 
efforts of the New York Nation. Conditions in Ireland have pro- 
foundly stirred millions of American citizens of Irish descent. They 
have created and are creating a widening rift in the friendly rela- 
tions of English-speaking peoples, not only in America but all over 
the world. No person who shares our common blood and language 
can view unmoved the existence of civil war, the killing of human 
beings, and the substitution of martial rule for the civil state in 
any part of the English-speaking world. As a people we have 
been trained by centuries to a belief in orderly civic processes. 
Only in direst necessity can there be justification of a resort to 
arms for the adjustment of disputes which it has been our custom 
and our pride to adjust by reasoned and amicable means. 

What the world most needs is peace. It needs an ending of hate. 
Discussion should resume its ascendancy and reason should displace 
the employment of force. The orgy of destruction which is now 
ravaging Ireland is sending its repercussions to every corner of the 
civilized world. It cannot fail to postpone indefinitely the return 
of ordered tranquillity to civilization. In addition to all this, the 
political life of America, as well as its orderly social processes, is 
profoundly disturbed by the injection of an internecine war between 
peoples of our own flesh and blood. 


Feelings such as these gave birth to this Commission for investi- 
gating into conditions existent in Ireland. The Commission has 
set itself to the task of ascertaining the facts. " It plans to learn as 
nearly as possible just what the conditions in Ireland are and what 
has brought them about. It plans to conduct a series of public 
hearings in Washington. It will hear witnesses who present them- 
selves representing English and Irish opinion. The Commission 
plans to send a mission to England and Ireland to make an inquiry 
into conditions in the latter country. 1 It will investigate the kill- 
ings and disorders. Quite as important to the permanent adjustment 
of the dispute, it will investigate into the economic conditions in 
Ireland, the extent to which the Irish have developed a self-con- 
tained economic and cultural life, and the extent to which the Irish 
people have evolved their own agencies of self-government during 
the last few years. 

In making these investigations, the Commission has received as- 
surances of cordial cooperation from liberal-minded groups in Eng- 
land, who are also deeply concerned over the state of civil war 
that exists in Ireland. It has received similar assurances from 
British labor groups and from British statesmen, as well as from 
organizations in Ireland. Judging by the expressions that have 
reached the Commission, the creation of this unofficial agency and 
the delegation of this unofficial mission to Ireland have awakened 
a genuine hope that through an impartial inquiry into the facts and 
a disinterested study of conditions, some constructive measures may 
be formulated for ending the chaotic situation that now prevails. 


In carrying out the purposes of the inquiry, the Commission has 
sent, as I stated, a number of communications to the British Am- 
bassador and to Mr. de Valera. 2 Persons representing any phase 
of this subject have been invited to be present this morning. Wit- 
nesses who have been called have been given the privilege of 

1 The Commission selected Major Newman, Mr. Maurer, Rev. Norman 
Thomas. Mr. Arthur Gleason, Dean Robert Morss Lo'vett. and Dr. Wil- 
liam MacDonald as members of this mission. Passports were duly granted 
to them by the U. S. Department of State, but the British Embassy at 
Washington refused to vise their passports, and effectively blocked this 
effort to make a first-hand investigation of conditions in Ireland. For 
correspondence, see Appendix A of Commission's report. 

- See Appendix A of Commission's interim 'report. 

selecting counsel, and the Commission is solicitous that all interests 
that may be involved should be permitted to make such inquiries 
of the witnesses as are germane to this inquiry. 

The witnesses that have been asked to appear for this day's pro- 
ceedings are as follows: Mr. Denis Morgan, Chairman of the Urban 
Council of Thurles, -Ireland; Reverend Father English, of White- 
hall, Montana; Mr. Francis Hackett, of New York City; Miss Signe 
Toksvig, of New York; and Mr. John F. Martin, of Green Bay, 
Wisconsin. I presume that many of these witnesses are here, and 
they will be called in the order named. 

I might say, in order that they may know the nature of these 
proceedings, that we are not a legal body. We have no power to 
subpoena witnesses. We desire only statements of facts. If any 
of the witnesses will indicate that they desire to be examined by 
counsel, we shall be very glad to grant that privilege. We want 
them to feel perfectly free to tell their stories in their own way: 
about the facts, about the background of conditions, about their 
own experiences; so that this Commission, none of whose members 
has been in Ireland for a long time, will get as clear an idea as 
possible of present conditions. 

Is it clear that all of these witnesses, have been invited by the 
Commission? Senator Walsh asks me to emphasize that all of 
these witnesses are witnesses of the Commission. They have been 
invited by it. Their expenses from Ireland have been paid by it. 
These hearings are hearings of the Commission. 

Mr. Frank P. Walsh (of counsel) : May I ask if the petition 
which I presented the other day to your Commission, that permis- 
sion be given to the Commission on Irish Independence to be present 
here and be heard, has been acted upon by the Commission of 

Chairman Howe: The petition has been raceived and granted by 
the Commission. All witnesses coming here can have counsel in 
telling their story. 

The first witness, Mr. Denis Morgan, of Thurles, Ireland. 

Q. What is your official position, if any? 

A. I hold the position of Chairman of the Thurles Urban Coun- 
cil, the governing body of Thurles. 

Q. That is the same as our town councils? 

A. Mr. F. P. Walsh: The same as our town councils. 

Q. Will the witness give his full name? 

A. Mr. Denis Morgan, of Thurles, Ireland. 

Chairman Howe: If you desire, your counsel can conduct your 
testimony. That will be satisfactory. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What kind of a town is Thurles? 

A. The town that I was in in Ireland is a town of about five 
thousand people. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I might say that Mr. Morgan and the other 
witnesses from Ireland have advised with the American Commission 
on Irish Independence. You may make your statement to that 

The Witness: As regards to that, I have spoken to Mr. Walsh 
and Mr. Malone for any assistance that I need in hearing my 

Q. Would you like to have them lead you in stating your case? 

A. I would like to have them assist me in points. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I think a good background for it would be to 
give your own length of residence in Thurles. I could ask you some 
questions that I think would start this. 

Q. You are chairman of the town council of Thurles? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What is the population of Thurles? 

A. About five thousand. 

Q. Has it any industries? Is it a manufacturing place? What 
sort of town would you say it is? 

A. It is a large agricultural center. It isn't an industrial town. 

Q. You say that you are chairman of the town council. Briefly, 
what does that town council consist of and what are its duties? 

A. It is the governing body of the town. There are twelve 
members of them, which are selected by the voters on the principle 
of proportional representation. 

Q. When were you elected chairman of the town council? 

A. On the thirtieth of January of this year. 

Q. Were the members of the town council elected by a vote of 
the people of Thurles? 

A. They were. 

Q. Briefly, who were candidates and what party did you 

A. There were three different parties trying to get representa- 
tion on the council. There were the Republican candidates; ihen 
there was the Labor Party and the Independent Party. 

Q. Is the Independent Party the party that is presumably op- 
posed to Sinn Fein? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. So that three parties had candidates in the field. What party 
did you represent? 

A. I was on the Labor Party. 

Q. Are you affiliated with any labor organization in Thurles? 

A. I am. I am a member of the Teachers' Association on the 
Trades Council. 

Q. It might be apropos at this time to state what your business 
was in Thurles and what you have done there. 

A. I have been there for the past twelve years and have carried 
on the occupation of teaching at the Christian Brothers' School and 
the Diocesan College. 

Q. What branches do you teach? 

A. English, Irish, and mathematics. 

Q. How many students in the Diocesan College? 

A. One hundred and twenty students. 

Q. In the secondary school? 

A. In the secondary school up to one hundred students. 

Q. That has been your vocation while 'you have been in Thurles? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Are you single or married? 

A. I am married. 

Q. If you would, state the situation of the election of last 

A. The election took place on January fifteenth. I was one of 
those elected. There were five Labor men, four Sinn Fein, and three 
Independents. The results of the poll were declared on January 


Q. I am going to ask you a little more about Thurles before 
you get to the actual occurrences. Are there churches in Thurles? 

A. Yes, sir. There are very fine churches there — a cathedral 
and an archbishopric. 

Q. Is there a Protestant church as well? 

A. Yes, sir. It is known as Saint Mary's Church. Canon Wilson 
is there. 

Q. Is there a Protestant population in Thurles? 

A. Yes, sir; quite small. 

Q. How about the surrounding country? 

A. In the surrounding country there are a few more Protestants. 

Q. Do the members of the surrounding country worship in 

A. They do. 

Q. And the cemetery — ? 

A. The cemetery of all of Thurles is here in the grounds of the 
Protestant Church. Saint Mary's Church. The Catholics are in- 
terred there. 

Q. Chairman Howe: How ahout the business population? Do 
non-Catholics carry on trading with Catholics? 

A. Yes, sir. I know of a woman, a non-Catholic, who carries 
on the largest trade in town. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Just a word. Has there been a conflict be- 
tween the people of Thurles at any time since you have been there 
based on religious prejudices or religious differences between the 

A. Quite the contrary. There have always been the most 
friendly relations between the peoples of all religions in Thurles. 
In fact, the chairman of the Urban Council, who had been the whole 
time president for the past twenty-five years, was a Protestant. 


Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: As to the character of the people of 
Thurles: is it a lawabiding place? 

A. Very. 

Q. You say it is a city of five thousand inhabitants? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. During the twelve years of your residence, has there ever 
been a murder trial there? 

A. None. 

Q. Has there ever been a case of assault to commit murder? 

A. No. 

Q. Has there ever been a burglary? 

A. If you mean a petty larceny — 

Q. No, a serious breaking in — 

A. No, I think not. 

Q. Has there been, in the entire time that you were there, a case 
of forgery, rape, embezzlement, or any of the major felonies? 

A. No. not to my knowledge. 

Q. Have there been courts in Thurles? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Please describe, up to the time that I understand what had 
been the regular government courts were abandoned, what sort of 
courts you had and how they were operated? 

A. We have what are known as petty sessions courts, sitting 


about once a week, presided over by one of the R. M.'s — the resident 

Q. What is the character of these magistrates? 

A. The R. M.'s are appointed by the Government. 

Q. Did the resident magistrate who presided over the Thurles 
court live in Thurles? 

A. He did. We have certain gentlemen who get the position of 
justice of the peace. They are allowed to sit on the bench also. 
If the resident magistrate is not present, then the senior member 
of the justices of the peace can take his place. 

Q. Please state to the Commission the general character of the 
litigation that takes place in these courts. 

A. At these weekly petty sessions the general matter is of such 
nature as stray animals on the road, or a man going home at night 
without a light on his car, or a certain man going home that had 
been imbibing during the day too freely. 

Q. What was the nature of the punishments in these courts? 

A. There would be a fine of, say, five shillings imposed. Or, 
if a man had trouble with a neighbor, he might be bound to keep 
the peace. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Who appoints these justices of the peace? 

A. Dublin Castle, the representative of the English Government 
in Ireland. 

Q. Then they are Government officials? 

A. They are. 


Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Are there military barracks in Thurles? 

A. There had not been up to the last two years. The hospital 
we had there was commandeered by the military and has been fitted 
up by them as the military barracks. 

Q. Prior to that time what was the method of policing Thurles? 

A. There were fifteen or twenty police under the district 

Q. Senator Walsh: Who appointed them? 

A. They are Government appointees. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: I wish that in your own way you would 
state to the Commission the constitution of the Royal Irish Con- 
stabulary; whether or not they are residents of the district in which 
they operate; the character of the arms used by them; and a resume 
of the entire organization of the Royal Irish Constabulary. 

A. The system as regards appointing the men to a place is that 


the native of the county where the police are is never appointed 
to that county. If a Tipperary man joins the police force, he will 
be sent to any county outside of Tipperary. So that you have no 
such thing in Ireland, even prior to 1910, as a local police ap- 
pointed by any power in that community. They all came from 
some other place. 

Q. Did the Town Council have any authority over the police? 

A. None whatever. 

Q. So that the administration of justice and the preservation of 
peace and order was entirely under the control of the British 

A. Yes, sir. If a constable of the county married a girl in that 
county, he was immediately removed from that county. 

Q. He was removed? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How do these constables patrol now? 

A. They go in lots of eight, each man carrying a carbine, the 
man on the right with a rifle and the man on the left with a shot- 
gun. They carry revolvers in their belts. 

Q. Where are they located at the present time? 

A. In the barracks, which is at one end of the town. 

Q. Describe what implements of warfare they have. 

A. They are served out hand grenades and rifles and shotguns 
and also revolvers. 

Q. Do they have machine guns? 

A. Yes, sir. They always have machine guns in the barracks. 
All the barracks are sandbagged. 

Q. Do they have materials for barricades? 

A. Yes, sir. They have barbed wire and the like. 


Q. Unless there is some other background in regard to the 
situation you desire to state, I wish you would describe the election. 
Was it an orderly election? 

A. Perfectly orderly. 

Q. Prior to that time, had you had any trouble at your elections, 
or were they always orderly? 

A. Yes, sir, always orderly. 

Q. They were carried on in good temper by the people? 

A. Yes, sir; always. 

Q. Relate what incidents in regard to the situation you think 


would be interesting to the Commission, in regard to the political 
organization. Suggest the method, or begin with your own election 
and the constitution of your council and the conduct of your 

A. As I stated before, the election took place on the fifteenth 
of January and the polls were declared on the sixteenth. There 
were five Labor members, 1 four Republicans, and three independents 

Q. How were they elected? 

A. All elected on the proportional representation system. 

Q. Senator Walsh: That does not mean that these Labor people 
got the largest vote necessarily. It means that under the system 
of proportional representation each party had to have a certain 
number of members on the council ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Does that system prevail all over Ireland? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. All town councils and urban councils and county councils 
use the proportional representation system? 

A. Yes, sir. The poor-law guardians are also elected in the 
same way. 

Q. You stated that a non-Catholic citizen had been chairman of 
the council for the last twenty-five years? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What proportion of the electorate was Catholic and what 
non-Catholic during those years? 

A. The non-Catholic amounted to about twelve. 

Q. Twelve per cent? 

A. No, twelve persons. 

Q. During the twenty-five years that a non-Catholic was presi- 
dent of the town council? 

A. Yes, sir. The same gentleman carried on one of the largest 
businesses in the town. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh : Now, go ahead with the organization of 
the council. 

A. The first meeting of the council was fixed for the thirtieth of 
January in order to appoint a chairman. 

Q. Were you acting under the English statutes or under the 
statutes of the Irish Republic? 

A. We were acting under the rules for elections laid down by 
the Local Government Board. 

The Irish Labor party is officially committed to Irish independence, and 
national issues is allied with the Republicans. 


Q. What is the Local Government Board? 

A. The Local Government Board is a system brought in by the 
English Government for extending to the Irish people more freedom 
in their own affairs. It has been in force for many years. 

Q. So that the Local Government Board could arrange the elec- 
tion under the proportional representation principle? 

A. \es, sir. 

Q. And it was under that Board that you elected these officers? 

A. Yes. sir. 

Q. And the Local Government Board were officials appointed by 
the British Government? 

A. Yes, sir. In fact, that proportional representation law was 
passed in the House of Commons. 

Q. And this election was held under laws and machinery that 
had been existing in Ireland for many years? 

A. Yes, sir. 


Q. Now, about the election of a chairman? 

A. The election of a chairman was fixed for the thirtieth of 
January, fifteen days after the polls were declared. At that meet- 
ing a chairman was to be elected by majority vote of the council. 
On the night it was to take place, just as I was going to the meeting. 
I was arrested. 

Q. Where were you arrested? 

A. In my own home. 

Q. By whom? 

A. By the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary. 1 

Q. How many? 

A. Eight armed men. 

Q. Describe just what took place, what hour it was, and how 
they approached you and your family. 

A. It was just about the hour of six-thirty in the evening. The 
meeting was fixed for seven. I remember it well. I heard a knock 
at the door, and as I opened it a hand was placed on my shoulder. 
A member of the Royal Irish Constabulary said, "I arrest you." I 
said, "On what charge?" He said, "On the orders of His Majesty's 

Q. Did he read a paper, any paper? 

1 The Royal Irish Constabulary is the Imperial British police force 
Ireland. See index. 


A. No, sir. 

Q. Describe your own home and the members of your family 
who live there. You live there with a wife and two children? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. The ages of the boys? 
A. One five years and the other was two. 


Q. Were your wife and children in good health at that time? 

A. Yes, sir. The child of five years was very healthy. My wife 
was approaching her confinement. On the twentieth of January, 
before the arrest took place, about eleven ten, my wife was in bed 
and my boy of five years was in the cot. I had put out the light 
and had got ready to go to bed when I heard shooting going on in 
the town. My house is about five hundred yards from the Royal 
Irish Constabulary barracks. It is on one of the corners of the 
street facing up toward the town. The town contains a large square 
— Liberty Square, they call it. 

Q. What had been the name of it prior to this? 

A. It was known as the Main Street, but it was changed by the 
new council, which changed most of the names of the streets. 

Mr. Walsh: Proceed. 

The Witness: On the side of the house facing toward this Liberty 
Square there are seven windows. All the rooms are exposed toward 
it. On the front there are six windows looking out into the street. 
When I heard the shooting first I thought it was only isolated shots, 
and then I heard heavy volleys. So I said to my wife, "We must 
get out of this room immediately. If there are any stray shots, we 
shall be in danger." We hastily got out of bed and got down to 
a lower basement where it was fairly good protection from the 
side and also from the front, because we were in the back. I went 
back and got the youngster out of his cot. I had to go on all fours 
lest a bullet should come in. I dragged him down and had to go 
back for some clothes to cover us. All that time the firing was 
going on heavily. And it got nearer and nearer. 

Q. Had any of the bullets struck your place? 

A. Not up to that time. Just as I got inside the basement with 
the clothes I heard bullets hitting the house. There was a door 
there facing the street. The bullets came in through the hall and 
swished by the door where we were standing. We heard the glass 
going and the plaster falling off the ceiling. 

Q. The glass of your own house? 


A. Yes, sir. I placed my wife and the little boy flat on the 
floor. We tried to^protect ourselves as well as we could. It was a 
miserably cold night. My wife, in her condition, being within 
two weeks of her confinement, was in a terror-stricken state. We 
lay there. The firing continued. The heavy volley we heard out- 
side seemed to pierce every window in the house. Then the firing 
moved back to town again. It lasted altogether for about an hour, 
and it stopped. We remained in the same position, anxious to know 
if it would break out any more. In half an hour's time it started 
again, but on the second occasion it did not last so long. Only about 
ten minutes. We could not stir from the position we were in 
because we did not know at what moment it would break out again. 
So that we had to lie on the stone floor all night. 


Q. Did you go out in the morning to make an examination of 
the city? 

A. Yes, sir. There was a crowd outside my house looking up 
at the front of it and wanting to know if we were all alive. I 
examined the front there, and every window in the house had been 
pierced by bullets. Some struck the doors. I counted twenty-one 
of them. Inside the rooms the ceilings were all torn and the wood- 
work was all shattered. There was debris lying on the floor and 
all around. I proceeded up town to see who had been killed, and 
the whole street was littered with plate glass shattered by shots 
along the side of the large square — both by breaking and by rifle 
shots. The newspaper office, to which I proceeded, had been shat- 
tered by hand grenades. Just inside the window you could see the 
large holes in the floor where they bursted. In several shops the 
glass was completely broken. 

Q. Could you see who carried on this firing? 

A. I did not attempt to put out my head. 

Q. All you know about it was what you ascertained the next 

A. Yes. The statements made by the inhabitants were that the 
Royal Irish Constabulary had come out of the barracks and had 
gone down the street, and were acting under orders. Several people 
told me they had orders given to them. 

Q. Were there any soldiers employed in addition to the Royal 
Irish Constabulary? 

A. There were. 


Q. Who was the District Inspector? 

A. District Inspector Golden. 

Q. He was in charge of the military proper? 

A. No, sir; I could not tell you that. 

Q. That was on the fifteenth? 

A. On the twentieth — the night of the twentieth and the morning 
of the twenty-first. 

Q. And your election came on the thirtieth? 

A. Yes. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: It would he well to carry this on chronologi- 

Q. Senator Walsh: The election was on the fifteenth? 

A. Yes. 

Q. But the election of the chairman was on the thirtieth? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. The chairman is elected at the first statutory meeting of the 
council, is he? 

A. Yes, sir; at the first statutory meeting. 


Q. Chairman Howe: Prior to January twentieth and those dis- 
turbances that you have described, were there any actions on the 
part of the people of that town of a lawless character, or any dis- 
turbances of the peace, or anything that would appear to be a 
justification for an attack on that town? 

A. In the morning I ascertained that a member of the Royal 
Irish Constabulary had been shot the evening previous. 

Q. Where was he shot? 

A. Back of the main square, this Liberty Square. 

Q. Do you know by whom he was shot? 

A. Oh, no. 

Q. But the night before there had been a member of the Con- 
stabulary shot? 

A. Yes, sir. That was what I heard the next morning. 

Q. And the attack was made following the shooting of one of 
the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was there a row, an open fight, over the killing of this 
member of the Constabulary? 

A. Oh, no. 

Q. Was there any disturbance of any kind? 


\. No. >ir. In the country towns people arc not <>nt late like 
in the large cities. By half after ten the houses are all closed and 
the people in bed. Yon would nol meet anyone in the streets. By 
half after eleven the town was perfectly quiet — no one on the 

Q. Were there any other disturbances of any kind or any assem- 
blies or gatherings of a lawless character previous to these two 
events ? 

A. Oh, no. 

Q. So that after the shooting of a member of the Royal Irish 
Constabulary the next night following this shooting up of the town 
was done? 

A. The same night. It all occurred on the same night. 

Q. You learned the next morning that it all occurred on the 
same night? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What area of the town was covered by this shooting? 

A. The area was directly along the main thoroughfare. 

Q. About a mile? 

A. A mile and a half. 

Q. Was every house attacked along that thoroughfare? 

A. No, only certain houses were attacked. 

Q. Senator Walsh: About how many in number? 

A. To the number of ten. I would say. 


Q. Were there any business houses attacked? 

A. Yes, sir. Most of them were business houses. A man with 
a large trading establishment had the front windows shot out and 
bullets through the upper rooms. Two licensed premises on the 
opposite side of the street had the same — plate-glass windows shat- 
tered. Two private residences — mine and another member of the 
Urban Council — shot up. I may mention that of the members of 
the Urban Council, there were four members whose houses were 
attacked^on that night — four newly elected members. 

Q. Was it appparent that these houses were picked out because 
of the political opinions of the owners? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What was known to be the political opinion of the members 
of the Council whose houses were attacked? 

A. They were all known to be associated with the movement for 
national independence. 


Q. And they were all among the local leaders of the movement? 

A. Yes. 

Q. So it was apparent that they picked out those who were 
associated with this movement? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: You spoke that a member of the Irish 
Constabulary was shot. Is that merely hearsay, or do you know 
definitely that a member was shot? 

A. Yes, sir; we knew afterwards that there was. 

Q. You knew afterwards? 

A. Yes, sir. He was shot about an hour previous to that time. 

Q. You are satisfied that one was shot? 

A. Oh, yes. There was a funeral afterwards. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Were these Labor members who were elected 
to the Council in favor of a republican form of government for 

A. Yes, all of them. 

Q. How many were in favor of a republican form of gov- 

A. Nine. 

Q. They were unanimous? 

A. No; nine out of twelve. But one of the independent men, 
who was in opposition to a republic, is now in favor of it. 

Q. Where is the town of Thurles? 

A. In the heart of Ireland, in Tipperary. 

Q. Is it a seaport town? 

A. No; well inland. 

Q. In what province? 

A. Province of Munster. 

Chairman Howe: That takes us to the approaching election of the 
chairman of the Town Council and his arrest. 


The Witness: Previous to that let me state that the morning after 
the shooting we had a visit from the members of the English Labor 
Party, who were sent over to Ireland to look into affairs. It hap- 
pened that they came along at twelve o'clock of that day and passed 
through the town on their way to the hotel from the station. They 
saw the damage and issued a statement that evening. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Who were the members of this mission? 


A. Mr. Arthur Henderson, Mr. Adamson, and several others. 

Q. Have you their statement? 

A. I did not bring it with me. I did not know whether it would 
be permitted to bring papers with me. 

Q. What was the nature of that statement? 

A. They said that they had been in Flanders, and the scene they 
saw in Thurles that day was worse than anything they had seen 
in Flanders. 

Q. What was the effect of this on the people in your own home? 

A. My wife suffered a nervous breakdown. 

Q. And the child? 

A. The little boy was very frightened. He was in a very nervous 
state as a result. 


Q. And your arrest? 

A. On January twenty-third I happened to be investigating one 
of the houses that had been shot up. I was talking to the man at 
the door when eight members of the Irish Constabulary came along 
and asked me what I was doing on the streets after six in the 
evening. I told them that I was talking to this man. They said I 
had no business to be on the streets. 

Q. Were you then a member of the town council? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You were elected on the fifteenth. Had you yet taken the 
oath of office? When did you officially become a member.? 

A. On the date of the election, the fifteenth. 

Q. So at the time these eight officers intercepted you, you were 
performing a duty of an officer of the town? 

A. Yes, sir. I was ordered to proceed home. I met my wife 
and child coming up the street. She asked me to come back to one 
of the shops. They came along after me. We crossed the square 
and they followed us and remained outside. I said to my wife 
that we had better go home. And they followed us until I got inside 
my own house, and then they departed. 

Q. Were there any disturbances at that time? 

A. Oh, no. All the disturbance was over. That was two days 
after the shooting. 

Q. Were you not allowed on the streets at night? Was that a 
continuous order of the authorities? 

A. It was no order at all. Everybody was doing their business 


on the streets. I was accosted because I was talking to this man 
at the door. 

Q. Were you ever on the town council before? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. But you were a school teacher in the town for twelve years? 

A. Yes. On the morning of the twenty-fourth I received a letter 
in a disguised handwriting saying: "You will depart this life if 
you do not leave this town within twenty-four hours," signed 
"Vengeance." I received that on Saturday morning, the twenty- 
fourth, I think it was. I did not pay any attention to the letter. 
Things kept on quietly for the next week. 

Q. You have no knowlege of the authenticity of that letter? 

A. INo, sir; no direct knowledge. But I have a very good idea 
of where it came from. On the thirtieth this meeting of the council 
was to take place, the statutory meeting at which the chairman was. 
to be elected. I was arrested, as I said. I asked the charge. They 
said there was no charge; only Government orders. I was marched 
up to the town surrounded on both sides by the Royal Irish Con- 
stabulary. I was marched away up to the other end of the town to 
the police barracks. I was brought inside and all the contents of 
my pockets turned inside out. This threatening letter I got on the 
Saturday previous was among the letters I had in my pockets. All 
these documents were taken away after being gone through by the 
police. I afterwards received them all back with the exception of 
the threatening letter. I never received that threatening letter back. 

I was left about an hour in the cell in the police barracks, and 
then I was taken to Templemore, about seven miles from our place, 
to the large military barracks there. We were surrounded by armed 
soldiers in motor lorries. 


Q. How many prisoners? 

A. There was Mr.Tulane, another member of the Urban Council. 

Q. What is his business? 

A. He carries on a large business as a seller of hides. 

Q. What party was he elected on? 

A. He was elected on the Republican Party. And then there 
was a Labor member. He was organizer for the Thurles Irish 
Transport Workers' Union. 

Q. What was his name? 

A. Eamon Hayes. And then another chap named Eustice. 


Q. What parties did these two others belong to? 

A. The organizer was a Labor man and the other chap was- a 

Q. The whole four were in favor of a Republic? 

A. Yes. We were handcuffed in pairs, placed in motor lorries, 
and taken to Templemore and thrown into cells there. At midnight 
we were taken out by armed soldiers, handcuffed all the time in 
pairs, and proceeded to Limerick, which we reached about three 
o'clock in the morning. 

Q. How far is Limerick? 

A. About forty miles. We were handcuffed there until about 
eight in the morning. We were then put in motor lorries, again 
handcuffed, and carried to Cork jail, which we reached about eight 
in the evening. We were put into cells there. The second of 
February we reached Cork. On the fourth of February I got a 
telegram announcing the birth of the son. 

Q. You got a telegram on the fourth of February? 

On the fourth of February. 

And you were arrested when? 

On the thirtieth of January. 

That was the first word you had received from home? 

Yes, sir. 

How did they know where you were? 

There were people who had seen us on the way and it was 

announced in all the papers. 


Q. Up to this time was there any information given you or any 
other man with you as to the reason why you were arrested, or the 


charge against y 

A. No. They refused to give us that. In fact, we did not know 
our destination. We were simply taken away. 

Q. Your family or the townspeople were not advised? 

A. Oh, no. Nobody knew. 

Q. Was there any indictment against you? Were you ever tried? 

A. Oh, no, sir. We were taken from Cork on the eighth of 
February at about four-thirty in the morning. We were told to pick 
up. I asked the warden where we were going, and he said he did 
not know. We were lined up in a procession of fourteen motor 
lorries preceded by an armed car. Four prisoners handcuffed in 
pairs were put in each motor lorry, and the car was then filled up 
with armed soldiers wearins helmets and fixed bavonets. 


Q. How many prisoners? 

A. Fifty-five in our batch. We were brought down to Cove, that 
was formerly Queenstown, and we were put on two lighters, two 
tenders, and shipped out into the bay, where there were two war 
sloops waiting for us. We went aboard the first sloop and had to 
cross from the deck of this sloop onto the next sloop. The hand- 
cuffs were not removed. The captain of the second sloop said he 
would not permit any prisoner to pass the gangway of his sloop 
until the handcuffs were removed, because it was too dangerous. 
We were brought across to Milford Haven, where a special train 
was waiting for us, and carried us on to London. As we went 
aboard the war sloop an officer came along and read out a document 
which said that whereas I was an individual who had acted or was 
acting or was about to act in a manner prejudicial to the peace of 
the realm, I was a fit person for deportation. That was the purport 
of the document, but it did not state any charge. 

Q. How long were you handcuffed continuously? 

A. Practically twenty-four hours. 

Q. Handcuffed to the other men? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Where did they put you in the ship? 

A. Down in the hold. Away down in a little square hole just 
large enough for a man's body to go down. 

Q. How many in the hold? 

A. Thirty-five prisoners. 

Q. And ventilation? 

A. No sort at all. 

Q. None otherwise than the hatch? 

A. No, sir. Some of the men were practically lifeless when 
they got across. One of the members of the Royal Irish Constabu- 
lary force came down with us before we started, and he had to be 
carried out in about five minutes. 

Q. The air was foul? 

A. Very foul. 


I was interned up at Wormwood Scrubbs prison about the second 
of April. There was sickness in my family. If a man interned 
there had one of his relations who were sick, it was the common 
custom that a man would apply for leave to go home, giving his 
parole that he would come back by a certain date. There had been 
about six paroles before this date. Every one had been kept. One 


chap got a telegram that his mother was — 

Q. Senator Walsh: Where did you say you were? 

A. In Wormwood Scrubbs prison. 

Q. Where is this prison located? 

A. In London, in Shepherds' Close district. 

Q. How large is it? 

A. Very large. I think it would hold about two thousand 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Have they workshops in it — make brushes 
and the like? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. It is a combined jail and penitentiary then? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. About paroles? 

A. Oh. yes. This chap got word that his mother was dead in 
Cork. He just had time to ask for leave and to catch the Saturday 
boat, and had to take a motor about forty miles into the country. 
He just got there and met the funeral of his mother. He came back 
in three days, and had previously applied for extension of parole 
and had not got word of it. He reached the prison gate and was 
just talking and shaking hands when he learned that his parole 
was extended, and then he went off again. That was the system. 
Every man got a parole who had reason for it. On the second of 
April I got word that my son was dying. 

Q. Which son was that? 

A. The oldest. I immediately applied for a parole to go home 
because my little boy was dying. No reply came to that applica- 
tion; it wasn't granted. Another telegram came. 

Q. Meantime, had you heard of the condition of your son? 

A. Yes, I got word from my wife that he was still dying. On 
the ninth I got a telegram that the child was dead. I sent in another 
application for parole. He had died on Friday night, and was to 
be buried on Sunday, so that I just had time to get there. I got no 
answer until five-thirty in the evening. Then the warden came along 
and said, "I'm very sorry, I've got this document to read to you." 
The document was that the Irish Government could not see its way 
clear to grant the parole to Mr. Morgan. 

Q. The Irish Government? 

A. Yes, the Irish Government, the government set up at Dublin 
Castle by the English — what we call the Castle. 

Q. The child was buried in your absence? 

A. Yes. I tried to get word through to my wife. I sent her 
word, but she did not get it. The first word she got was from the 


stop press news in the papers. The child was buried the next 
evening in the cemetery of the Protestant church of which I spoke. 


Q. Did the election of the chairman of the council proceed? 

A. Yes, sir. The night I was arrested, while I was still in the 
lockup in the Irish Constabulary barracks, the news reached me 
that the election had taken place and I was elected chairman. There 
were two candidates, myself and Mr. Tulane, who was along with 
me in the cell. 

Q. Was it known that there were two candidates? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was it known before you were arrested that you were can- 

A. Yes, sir. Everyone knew it. 

Q. So that the two men arrested were known to be the candi- 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Had it been published in the local press? 

A. In the Star, yes. 

Q. How many votes did you receive from the eleven members 

A. There were not eleven members present. There were two of 
us in the lockup cell and there were two men on the run. 

Q. You mean by that there were two other members who were 
eluding the Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A. Yes, sir. They were being looked for. The police went 
down and looked into the meeting and did not find the men they 
wanted and left. 

Q. What was the vote? 

A. Four to three was the vote. 


One thing more about while we were in prison. On the twenty- 
fifth of April we put in a demand to the Government that we be 
tried oh some charge or other. We demanded to be brought to trial 
or else released. They refused. We got no answer to the demand, 
and we went on hunger strike. We refused to take any food in the 
prison until we were released or tried. Two hundred of us went 
on hunger strike at this time. When some of the men began to get 
exhausted and were collapsing, we asked the governor of the jail 


if he would leave the cell doors open in the night-time so that those 
of us who were not in as had state as the rest, we could look after 
them. That request was refused, and we broke down the doors that 
night. So we were taken out of the cells where we were and thrown 
into what are called punishment cells. We were three days on 
hunger strike at this time, and were getting pretty weak. These 
punishment cells are in the basement, low down. They had not 
been opened for twenty years, I think. They were very small and 
close and the dust was thick in them. 

Q. What was the size of those cells? 

A. Twelve feet by eight, I suppose. We were left there for four 
days. The conditions were bad there. We were never given any 
water to wash ourselves or anything else. We were left in a filthy 

Q. How many days were you in those cells? 

A. Four. I was taken out of the cells in the low basement and 
placed in the very top of the house, up four flights of stairs. We 
could take a little exercise at certain times of the day, walking out 
of the cells and down into the yard and walking back again. I used 
to do this until my legs gave way due to hunger. I was then locked 
up. None of the doors were ever opened after that. The doctor 
came along and asked me to take some medicine, and I said, "No, 
not so long as I am in the prison. As soon as I am out of the prison 
gate, I will take medicine." He tried to force it down my lips, but 
I threw the glass out of his hand. The next day at twelve o'clock 
a man arrived and said to me that an ambulance was waiting outside 
for us. He did not tell us where we were going or anything else. 
They brought us to the ambulance and took us to St. James Hospital. 

Q. What hospital was that? 

A. St. James Hospital, in London, near Wormwood Scrubbs jail. 
We were in the hospital then for about three weeks. We never got 
a thing when we left. I may tell you that upon leaving the jail, 
we were simply taken out of the bed and put into the ambulance. 
We had no clothes. The money we had on us when we were arrested 
was taken at the prison gate. Our watches were also taken. When 
we came out, we got back none of our property or our money. We 
were three weeks in the hospital. 

Q. Did you ever get your money back? 

A. Oh, yes, eventually. Another thing was that if a man was 
released from a prison in England, he had to be sent back to Ireland. 
You got a voucher to bring you back to the place where you were 
arrested. When we came out of the hospital we asked for a voucher 
and for our watches and our money. They were all refused, 


Q. How, then, did you get back home? 

A. Fortunately some of us had friends in London, so that we 
got some money and got home. We kept applying and applying, 
and finally after six weeks I got my money back. But we were never 
paid for our railway fare. 


The result was that I took up my position on the Urban Council 
in June. There was a great assembly called of all the public bodies 
in the county to appoint judges for the Republican system of arbi- 
tration courts. The government courts of Thurles had fallen into 
disuse for about twelve months past. These courts were all practi- 
cally falling into disuse altogether. 

Q. By reason of the fact that the military authorities were assum- 
ing control of all disorders? 

A. No, by reason of the fact that the people were refusing to go 
into these courts. 

Q. Senator Walsh: That means in civil cases. But were not the 
police arresting citizens and bringing them into these other courts? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. These petty offenses of which you spoke, where were they 

A. In these petty sessions courts. 

Q. But all the civil cases were not tried there? 

A. No. The weekly sessions fell through. They were not held 
any more because of the fact that there was nothing for them 
to do. The people wouldn't use them. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Are there any lawyers in Thurles? 

A. Oh, yes. We have four lawyers. 

Q. They formerly practiced in these petty courts? 

A. Yes, they did. 

Q. What do they do now? 

A. They go into the Republican courts. 

Q. How about this meeting, this assembly? 

A. We called a meeting of the whole constituency. That is, a 
village area takes up the whole council. We called a meeting of all 
the governing bodies. 

Q. What governing bodies? 

A. The urban council, the district council, the labor bodies, and 
other public bodies. We got them all to send representatives to the 
assembly at Thurles. At that meeting they appointed five judges. 

Q. Who were these judges? 


A. Five citizens — Mr. O'Byrne, Mr. Dwyer, Mr. Leady, Father 
O'Brien, and Mr. Hassett. 

Q. Could vou give the husinesses of these men? 

A. Yes. Mr. O'Byrne is a barrister, Mr. Dwyer a farmer, Mr. 
Hassett is also a farmer, and Father O'Brien is a local priest. 


Q. Chairman Howe: May I ask the witness? You said there 
were two hundred people in the jail at the time you were. Were 
two hundred men arrested as you were? Where were they from 
and what was the cause of their arrest? 

A. Yes, sir; there were fifty-five deported on the first occasion. 
Every day there were batches coming in from Ireland, just as we 
were, on deportation orders. 

Q. They were under indictment? 

A. No, they were all deported. There was just a deportation 

Q. Senator Walsh: Who were they signed by? 

A. Mine was signed by Ian MacPherson. Others were signed by 
\ iscount French, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. 

Q. Were they all on hunger strike? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did any of them die? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. How long were they on hunger strike? 

A. Some of them were on hunger strike for twenty-four days. 

Q. Were they all released as you were? 

A. Yes. 


Q. Chairman Howe: I should like to ask about the killing of 
the policeman in Thurles. That happened the night of your arrest? 

A. It was a few days before that. 

Q. What reason had they to connect that with the leading Re- 
publicans of the town? 

A. You mean why we were shot up on account of the shooting 
of the constable? 

Q. Yes. 

A. I could not say. This is only a theory of mine: they thought 
they would make prominent members of the town suffer for it. 

Q. Did they make any inquiries into the cause of his death? 

A. Oh, there was an inquest. But he did not die on that night 


of the shooting-up. He died two days after. There was a coroner's 
inquest — a coroner and a jury of twelve men. They found he was 
shot by some persons unknown. 

Q. This took place in the town itself? 

A. In the town itself. 

Q. Do you know of any reason, any enmity or animosity, that 
would lead to his being murdered? 

A. No. 

Q. Was he conspicuous in any work there among the British 
officers that might make his particular actions offensive to the people 
of the village? 

A. Well, you see, I could not really tell you what his duties 
were. In these cases we have no control whatever over the Royal 
Irish Constabulary. We have no control, we know nothing about 
the duties they were performing. 

Q. Did you personally know this particular officer? 

A. I did. 

Q. What was his name? 

A. Constable Finnegan. 

Q. Had he been obnoxious in any way? Had he been over- 
zealous in his duties? 

A. I really could not say. 

Q. At that time had they abandoned the coroner's inquest? 

A. No, not at that time. 

Q. The finding was merely that he was shot down by persons 
unknown. No other finding? 

A. No other finding. 

Q. It v 

A. No. 

Q. What were the circumstances of his shooting? Was he on 
his beat? 

A. I think so. I think he was going home. 

Q. Was he a citizen of that town? 

A. No, he could not be. No constable is ever sent to his home 

Q. Did he have any quarrel with the neighbors? 

A. I do not know. It could happen, but I do not know about it. 

Q. What was the best information you obtained as to the time 
when the officer was shot? 

A. The time that he was shot was about half aften ten. 

Q. Where was he when he was shot? 

A. He was going toward his own home, 

Q. That was about half past ten? 


A. Yes. sir. 

Q. How long after this, policeman was shot did the shooting up 
of the town take place? 

A. About an hour. 

Q. And everybody in town was practically in bed or in his home 
at that time? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You said that there were two hundred men in that particular 
jail under arrest with you. Were there men in other jails? 

A. Oh, there were. In Brixton prison, the scene of the late 
tragedy, there were five more. 

Q. How : many all told? 

A. About three hundred all told. 

Q. From different parts of Ireland? 

A. \es. different parts of Ireland. 


Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: The elections to which you referred under 
the Local Government Act which resulted in the return of Labor 
men and Republican men: do you know what the results generally 
were of the elections throughout Ireland at that time? 

A. Oh, yes. There had been a great sweeping at the polls in 
favor of the Republic. 

Q. About what per cent, of the urban councils went Republican? 

A. I would say about ninety per cent. 

Q. All over Ireland? 

A. All over Ireland. 

Q. North as well as south? 

A. Not so much in the north; but if you take the whole of 
Ireland — 

Q. Ninety per cent? 

A. Ninety per cent. 

Q. What per cent of the councilmen were Labor men and what 
per cent. Republicans and what per cent. Unionists? 

A. Our own council is a good case: about five Republicans to 
four Labor men, and three who are for union. 

Q. On the whole, do the men who run as Labor candidates 
adhere to the principle of Republican organization for Ireland? 

A. All of them. 

Q. But they maintain their own party organization? 

A. Yes, sir. 


Q. It is a political party, just like the Labor Party or the 
Liberal Party in England? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. But do the individual members all adhere to the principle 
of a Republican government in Ireland? 

A. All of them. 

Q. When you say that ninety per cent, are Republicans, you 
mean that ninety per cent, of those voting indicated their preference 
for those candidates? But in every council there must be a minority 
of non-Republicans because of the proportional representation 

A. Yes, sir. Under the old system there would have been no 
minority representation at all. 

Q. Did other arbitration councils organize as yours and proceed 
as you did? 

A. Yes, sir. In the larger cities they have a different method. 
But in the towns and smaller cities they are organized along these 

Q. About ninety per cent, of the local agencies are Republican? 

A. Yes, today. 

Q. On the night that they shot up the town, was anyone killed? 

A. No. 

Q. Anyone wounded? 

A. There were some very remarkable escapes, though. 

Q. Just property destroyed? 

A. Property destroyed. For instance, the bed in which I was 
sleeping was struck. Had I not the good sense to get out of the 
bed, I would have been struck. 

Q. Had you any personal knowledge of the facts surrounding 
the killing of this constable, or do you know of any resident of 
Thurles that had such knowledge? 

A. No. 

Q. You do not know whether it was a private feud, or whether 
he was executed? 

A. No, I do not know. 

Q. Direct or indirect, by hearsay or personal knowledge? 

A. No, I could not give you any idea. 

Q. What was the popular sentiment in that town? How did 
the people feel about it? 

A. The people were so terror-stricken and absorbed in their 
own safety that they did not have time to think about anything else. 

Q. Since then it must have been discussed among the neighbors. 

A. Yes, but the people do not know who committed it. 


Q. I do not mean who committed it, but the fact that it occurred. 
How did they feel about such an occurrence in your town? 

A. I could not say. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Do you, Mr. Walsh, wish to continue? 
Is there anything more? 

A. Mr. F. P. Walsh: If you please, yes. 


Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Has there been any further shooting up of 
the town since you came back? 

A. Oh, yes. While I was in prison it was shot up twice, similar 
to the first time. 

Q. I wish you would detail anything you had knowledge of in 
the immediate vicinity — for instance, in Templemore, the killing 
of the men. Would you detail? 

A. First of all, while I was in jail in March, there was another 
member of the Urban Council named McCarthy who was very 
prominent in demanding an inquiry into the shooting up of the 
town. At the Urban Council he put forward a resolution that some 
inquiry be held as to the importance of the damage done and 
everything else in the shooting up of the town. This chap got a 
letter informing him that if he came up Pryor Street in the direc- 
tion of the barracks they would give him all the information he 
wanted. Naturally he did not move. But there was a sad sequel to 
it. A few nights afterward, after the family was in bed — they live 
off the Liberty Square — the family was in bed about two o'clock in 
the morning. A knocking came at the door, and they asked who 
was there, and they said they were looking for one McCarthy. The 
member of the Urban Council is Michael McCarthy. The brother, 
a lad named James, who never takes part in public life in any way, 
simply a chap who is fond of going around with dogs and sporting, 
he said he would go down and answer the door. As he answered 
the door the men asked him what his name was. Immediately two 
shots were fired, and he fell back dead in the hall. His sister and 
brother came down. The sister said she would go to the priest's, 
and she ran down the street in her bare feet. As she proceeded, 
two shots were fired after her. 

Q. Did they hit her? 

A. No, she luckily escaped. There was a coroner's inquest held 
over him. The verdict of the jury was that he was murdered by 
men dressed in the uniform of the Royal Irish Constabulary. 

The next night, at a place named Ragg, three miles from Thurles, 


there was a chap there named Dwyer. A knock came at the door, 
and his sister, a married lady, opened the door, and they demanded 
her brother. 

Q. What was his position? 

A. He was a licensed trader. She said he was upstairs. He 
came down with a candle in his hand. Two shots were fired and he 
fell. A man at the door said, "I think I will finish him." And he 
fired another shot into him. The verdict in that case was, "Wilful 
murder against the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary." 

Q. Wilful murder against or by? 

A. Against them. The verdict was against them. 

Q. In other words, the verdict was that this young man's death 
was caused by wilful murder by the members of the Royal Irish 

A. Yes. In the case of this chap Dwyer, the members of the 
Royal Irish Constabulary came through in motor lorries about three 
days afterward shouting: "Dwyer is dead and a very good job." 
They came back to the house where this sister, this married girl 
lived, and smashed all the bottles in the house and fired shots 
through the ceiling. The result was that she had to leave the shop 
altogether. The shop was shut up for several weeks. She came 
back after a time and a similar occurrence happened. The shop 
was shot up again. 

There was a case at Holy Cross, about three miles from the old 
abbey of Holy Cross, where a wake was being held. A girl had 
died, and a wake was being held at the house. At a wake in Ireland 
the neighbors assemble and they say the mass for the dead and sit 
up all night with the corpse. At the wake there was a poor old 

Q. What was his name? 

A. Mr. Rooney. He happened to go out of the corpse house 
about three o'clock in the morning. He was riddled with bullets. 
Shots were also fired through the doors and windows of the corpse 
house. There was another man, the village postman, who was 
brought out and told to look at the body of the dead comrade. He 
expected to be shot too, and he said, "But you know me; you know 
who I am. I am the village postman." They said, "No, we don't 
know who you are." 

Q. Who were "they"? 

A. They were the men who came in lorries. They were not from 
Holy Cross. Finally one of the men spoke up from the lorry and 
said, "Yes, I know him. He's the postman." The verdict again 
was wilful murder. 


Q. Who returned that verdict? 

A. The coroner's jury of twelve men. 

Q. Who selects those twelve men? 

A. The police; that is, the Royal Irish Constabulary. 

Q. Was that verdict rendered by a jury established by the Re- 
publican government of Ireland, or by the Roval Irish Constabu- 

A. By the Royal Irish Constabulary. 

Q. So that the verdict of a jury called and convened by the 
Royal Irish Constabulary pronounced that crime as wilful murder? 

A. Yes. wilful murder committed by the armed forces of the 

Q. What could be the motive and reason for shooting up a house 
where there was a dead body? 

A. I was just coming to that. The next morning there was an 
official notice appearing in the papers coming from Dublin Castle. 

Q. Dublin Castle is the representative of the British Government 
in Ireland? 

A. Yes. This report stated that there had been an attack on the 
police barracks in Holy Cross and one of the members had been 
shot dead. 

Q. Had there been an attack on the barracks? 

A. No. None at all. 

Q. And this chap was a poor simpleton? 

A. Yes, just a poor simpleton. 

Q. How old was he? 

A. About sixty years of age. 

Q. Were there any other shots fired or persons killed? 

A. No other persons were killed, but other shots were fired, lots 
of them, through the house. 

Q. What was it that prevented them from killing others in the 
house? Was there any person who intervened? 

A. There was a man who was a cousin of the person who was 
dead. He was an ex-army officer. He came out, and they asked him 
what business he had there. He said he was an ex-army officer — 
he explained who he was. I think his presence saved the other 
men from being shot also. 

Q. Was there other shooting at Holy Cross besides at the place 
where the dead body lay? 

A. No, but at a place about seven miles away there was an attack 
on a police barracks, but not there. 



Q. If it will not interrupt your narrative, when was the Lord 
Mayor of Cork killed, Mr. MacCurtain, with reference to your con- 
finement in jail? 

A. He was killed in March. 

Q. And you were then in Wormwood Scrubbs prison? 

A. I was. 

Q. Did you have any advices prior to the death of Mayor Mac- 
Curtain that he was to be killed? Please tell that incident. 

A. On the sixteenth of March there was a prisoner from Ireland 
arrived in Wormwood Scrubbs. I happened to know this man. 
He was Mr. Dwyer, a member of the arbitration court. When he 
came in, I shook hands with him. He was telling me about home 
affairs. He said, "By the way, I heard something coming over on 
the boat, that yourself and Lord Mayor MacCurtain were sentenced 
to be shot by the Royal Irish Constabulary." 

Q. He said that Mayor MacCurtain was to be shot to death by 
the -Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A. Yes, by the Royal Irish Constabulary. 

Q. When was that date? 

A. The sixteenth of March. 

Q. When was his life taken? 

A. He was shot on the twentieth. 

Q. Did you receive any information from any member of the 
English Labor Commission who was present in Thurles the day 
following the first shooting as to what information he had from the 
Royal Irish Constabulary as to their future movements in your 

A. Yes, I did. I had an interview with the members of that 
Commission, and was talking with Mr. Arthur Henderson. Just as 
he was leaving the town he called me aside and said to me: "Mr. 
Morgan, I want to speak to you a minute. When I arrived at the 
station this morning I was speaking to a member of the Royal Irish 
Constabulary. I said the shooting up of the town was terrible. He 
said, 'Well, they deserved it for shooting one of our men, and it is 
nothing to what we will give them tonight if he dies.' " That was 
Mr. Arthur Henderson of the British Labor Party. 


Q. Do you know of any further disturbances in this locality? 

A. Of what nature? 

Q. Violence, disturbances, and shootings. 


A. Oh, yes. Templemore, seven miles from us, was shot up and 
the town hall completely gutted. 

Q. By fire? 

A. By fire, incendiary bombs. 

Q. Did you examine the premises? 

A. I did. Only the four walls remained. 

Q. What was the occasion for attacking that building? Was it 
an attack? 

A. The same day there had been a district inspector shot in the 
town of Templemore. 

Q. So that as soon as a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary 
is shot they proceed to fire up the town? 

A. Yes. That night they shot up the town. 

Q. Are there other instances of that sort? 

A. \es, they are quite common. 

Q. Is that what is meant by reprisals? 

A. Yes. These are what are meant by reprisals. Something 
happens. Any town in that vicinity will be attacked in a similar 
manner: shooting and everything of that kind; big motor lorries of 
troops arrive. 


Q. Does the Royal Irish Constabulary do this, or the military? 

A. They are so mixed now it is difficult to tell. The original 
Royal Irish Constabulary forces are now supplemented by what are 
known as the Black-and-Tans. They are police who have been 
recruited in England in large quantities and sent across to fill up 
the forces in Ireland. They did not have uniforms enough of the 
original kind to give them, so they dressed them in khaki and put 
R. I. C. caps on them, which are black, and a black belt; so the 
black and khaki together made what is called Black-and-Tan. 

Q. Have they had difficulty in recruiting members for the Royal 
Irish Constabulary? 

A. Yes. They could not get them to enlist in Ireland. As a 
result this Black-and-Tan has been introduced. 


Q. Has any person in your vicinity been arrested or tried or even 
accused by the public authorities for the commission of any of these 
murders or assaults upon officers? 

A. No. 

Q. So that the method which has been invoked to attempt to 


stop or to bring to justice the perpetrators of these murders has been 
to fire upon the town? 

A. Exactly. There has been no trial in our vicinity of anybody 
on any of these charges. 

Q. Discussing the wake where the simpleton was shot, you said 
that that same night, about seven miles distant from the wake, the 
barracks of the police had been attacked? 

A. Yes. 

Q. What was the nature of that? Was anyone shot or any 
damage done? 

A. No one was killed. The barracks were just shot up. 

Q. You described the report made by Dublin Castle on the kill- 
ing of this simpleton. Was it at Templemore where some buildings 
were set fire to and people burned to death? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Just describe that. 

A. About two days after Templemore had been shot up, an 
officer who had taken part in it, named Captain Beattie, died. A 
report appeared in the papers that Captain Beattie had lost his life 
in a gallant attempt to save an inmate's life in a burning building 
in Templemore. 

Q. Is that all? Did they say what burning building? 

A. Oh, no; they did not say what building. 

Q. What was the result? 

A. The urban council of Templemore met and issued a repudia- 
tion of that statement. They said that Captain Beattie did not lose 
his life in rescuing an inmate of a burning building, but had lost 
his life in attempting to burn the town hall. 

Q. What were the facts? 

A. The best of my information is that Captain Beattie and a 
private soldier entered the building to burn it, and before they could 
get out, it was set afire from the outside. There was just a window 
from which they could escape. The window was a good height. 
A person could jump out from it into the street. What I imagine 
happened is that the soldier lifted the officer up to the window to 
jump out, and then he could not get out himself because he had 
no one to help him, and his body was found inside. 

Q. Do you know where the soldiers got the petrol to burn this 

A. Yes, sir. The soldiers went to a petrol shop in Templemore 
and demanded petrol. The owner said he would not give it to them, 
and they took it anyway from him and threw some of it back lighted 
and burned the shop down. 


Q. Commissioner Maurer: Demanded what'.-' 
A. Petrol, petrol. 
Chairman Howe: Gasoline. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Who was the owner of the shop? 
A. He was a Protestant gentleman. 

Q. Were there any inmates of the town hall at the time the 
attack was made upon it? 

A. No; fortunately it was night time and no one there. 


Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: I would like to go back for a moment to 
the constitution of this arbitration court. After this court was 
formed, did the people of Thurles submit their cases to the arbi- 
tration court? 

A. Oh, yes; hundreds of cases were tried. 

Q. Hundreds of cases. Do the lawyers of Thurles practice in 
the arbitration courts? 

A. They do. 

Q. Are they allowed to carry on their business without restraint 
on the part of the military? Do they do it in public or do they 
have to do it in private? 

A. Oh, they have to do it in private. 

Q. Are the decrees of this court respected by the people of 

A. Absolutely. I may say that at first the court did sit openly, 
and then a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary came along and 
closed the court, and since then they meet surreptitiously. 

Q. Do the people submit their controversies to them and respect 
their decisions and abide by them? 

A. Oh, yes, absolutely. 

Q. There are now no other courts in Thurles? 

A. No, nor have there been for several months. 

Q. They are abandoned? 

A. Yes. The petty court has quit sitting and the court house is 
falling into dilapidation. 


Q. Are there any creameries in your neighborhood? 
A. Oh, yes. 


Q. You might sketch how they are gotten up. 

A. Yes, these creameries are started by the farmers' cooperative 
societies. They take all their milk there. These have been very 
successful for the last several years in Ireland. 

Q. About how long? 

A. Thirty years, I suppose. I am not quite sure on that point, 
but I think about thirty years. 

Q. The farmers started them themselves? 

A. Yes. These creameries: the petrol that was taken from this 
shop this night at Templemore, the motor lorries took this petrol 
the same night and went around the country burning the five 
creameries systematically. 

Q. Were these large creameries? 

A. Yes, very large. 

Q. Was butter stored in these creameries? 

A. Yes, sir. 


Q. What has been the effect of this terrorism upon the life of the 
people in the market towns? What effect has it had upon the price 
of necessities? 

A. In the first place, many people are afraid of their lives and 
are leaving business and giving up their places for sale. The roads 
of the district are patrolled. Armed motor lorries are rushing 
along day and night. The people are afraid to go on the roads at 
all. Only in case of necessity are people using the roads at all. 
People do not go on the roads except in day time when they have to, 
and they go straight home. 

Q. What effect has this had upon the price of products? 

A. It has sent up the price. Often necessary food cannot be 
brought in from the country because the people will not venture on 
the roads. 

Q. What effect upon the people? 

A. The people, naturally, are living in a state of terror. Take 
the case of my wife. She finds it very hard to sleep at night. At 
the least noise she is startled and rushes out of the house thinking an 
attack is to be made. 

Q. At the time of the shooting up of Thurles your little boy was 
in good health? 

A. He was a very strong boy. 

Q. Did this seem to have a profound effect upon his nerves? 

A. Yes, it shocked him profoundly. 


Q. How about the people of the town, the rest of them? 

A. I have not been able to stop at my own home since January 

Q. Where do you stop? 

A. I stop at friends' houses. 

Q. And your wife? 

A. She usually sleeps in the house, but any noise sends her 
flying from the premises. 

Q. Is that common in Thurles? How about the prominent 

A. Yes, no man who is prominent will stop in his own home 
over night. 

Q. For fear of attacks? 

A. Yes. 

Q. I was asking about the little boy. Subsequent to this, when 
was the first notice you had of any condition of the boy's heart? 

A. We never had any trouble with him. We never had a doctor 
for him. 

Q. After this shooting, what was the course of his life? 

A. He was a great favorite of my own. He was a little chap 
whom I was bringing up in his own language. 

Q. Irish? 

A. Yes, Irish. I kept him with me so that I could talk to him 
in his own language. When I was taken away the poor little fellow 
was constantly calling for me. The week that he was dying, he 
used to look at the mother and say, "When is Daddy coming home?" 
and "Daddy, oh Daddy!" 

Q. What is he said to have died of? 

A. Heart trouble. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I think that is all. 

The Witness: As regards the town hall. We have a very fine town 
hall in Thurles that is used as a place of recreation for the young 
men of the town. That hall a year ago was commandeered by the 

Q. Is there any social life left in Thurles at all, any intercourse 
between the inhabitants, educational meetings? 

A. Oh, no. We used to hold classes in Irish, and they have all 
had to be discontinued. 

Q. Prior to that time was there social intercourse? 

A. Yes. We used to have classes, Irish and other classes. 

Q. And that has all been wiped out? 

A. Yes, tha^ has all been wiped out. It is scarcely safe for 
traders to keep open. I have seen the armed forces of the Crown 


come along and enter a meat shop and take down all the quarters 
of meat, put them down on the block, cut them up, and take them 

Q. Did they give any payment for it? 

A. They offered payment, which was not accepted. In the case 
I spoke of it was not accepted. 


Q. Senator Walsh: I would like to ask you some questions 
about the government of Ireland and the changes which have taken 
place there. I understand that some years back the government of 
your town consisted of a town council elected by the people, and an 
Irish Constabulary appointed by the British authorities, and 
magistrates and justices of the peace appointed by police authorities; 
that there came a time when there was brought to Ireland a British 
army, and this hospital you spoke of was taken over for barracks, 
and the town hall also. When was the date of the coming into 
Ireland of the British army? 

A. The British army? 

Q. Yes, the British army. 

A. You know we have always had British garrisons in Ireland. 

Q. When did they take over the hospital? 

A. The hospital was taken over two years ago. 

Q. The town hall? 

A. A year ago. They do not have it now, but they had it that 

Q. In speaking of garrisoned towns, you mean recruiting stations 
where officers and soldiers are drilled and trained for the British 

A. Yes. 

Q. But there was no actual operating on the part of the British 
army until the past two years? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. They did not assume any authority or police the streets? 

A. Oh, no. There would be none of the armed lorries going by. 

Q. When did the Black-and-Tans appear in Ireland? 

A. The Black-and-Tans appeared in Ireland some six months 

Q. How far had the people of Ireland proceeded in their 
attempts to establish an Irish Republic when the British army began 
to take an active part in attempting to preserve law and order? 


A. The establishment of the Irish Republic would dale back to 
the time of the election in December, 1918. 

Q. Two years ago this next month? 

A. Yes. sir. 

Q. About that time the British army became active in Ireland? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. It has been active ever since? 

A. Ever since. 


Q. So it was the advent of the Republican form of government 
that brought the British army to Ireland? 

A. Yes. 

Q. They have established barracks in every large town and city 
all over Ireland? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. So that they had in your town this large 1 building you 
speak of? 

A. Yes. 

Q. What was that building used for before they took it? 

A. A fever hospital. 

Q. And you say they took over by summary process the whole 
building and turned out the inmates? 

A. Yes, and turned out the inmates. 

Q. And also the town hall? 

A. Yes, the town hall. 

Q. What appear to be the duties of these British soldiers? 
What are they doing by clay and night? 

A. It seems to me that they are a garrison. 

Q. Are they acting in the capacity of police officers? 

A. They are going around on all these raids. 

Q. Mr.'F. P. Walsh: Eight of them go together? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You say soldiers. It is no longer the Irish Constabulary? 

A. It is all soldiers now. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What do the Black-and-Tans do? 

A. I really could not tell you. They do not do anything. 

Q. Where are they lodged? 

A. In the police barracks. You must discriminate between the 
police barracks and the military barracks. 

Q. The Black-and-Tans are taking the place of the Royal Irish 


A. Yes. Irishmen refused to join them. Resignations have 
been taking place constantly and continuously. 

Q. How are they dressed? 

A. They are dressed in khaki the same as soldiers, with a black 
cap and black police belt. 

Q. Do they carry any weapons? 

A. Rifles in their hands. 

Q. How many Black-and-Tans are there is your town? 

A. I could not tell you. It would be -dangerous for anybody to 
ask. You might be sent to two years in prison for asking such a 

Q. Has not the Town Council any authority to ask about how 
many British soldiers there are in the town? 

A. Oh, no. 

Q. What is your best judgment as to the number of Black-and- 
Tan officers in the town? 

A. I suppose there would be forty there. 

Q. And how many British soldiers? 

A. I really could not tell you. It is constantly changing. The 
units are changed. I really could not say what number. 

Q. Are these officials practically all British or Englishmen now? 

A. Oh, yes. All Black-and-Tans. Of course there is a corps 
now known as the Auxiliary Corps. 

Q. What is that? 

A. This is a corps that has been recruited from what has been 
described in the House of Commons as ex-army officers in England. 
I think they are principally for raiding purposes. They dress in 
civilian clothes and in soldiers' clothes. They dress in every way. 
You can never tell them. They go around in motor lorries every 
day raiding houses and raiding streets and holding them up. 


Q. Back of all this disorder and the conditions you have de- 
scribed is an attempt of the British authorities to wipe out and 
stamp out and eliminate from Ireland the efforts of the Irish people 
to organize the Irish Republic? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And as soon as the people of Ireland would give up any 
effort to establish a republic and agree to accept British authority 
all this would end? 

A. That is apparently the case. 


Q. Chairman Howe: These local bodies to which you were 
elected a member, are they not British statutory bodies? Were 
they not elected in accordance with an Act of Parliament? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. And the people were authorized to use them? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Thev were legalized political agencies that had been used by 
the people for a long time? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. And when they used them to elect Republican members, this 
attack intervened? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And I understand you to say, Mr. Morgan, that you had not 
slept in your own home since this happened? 

A. I have not slept in my own home since January twentieth, the 
night of the shooting. 

Q. How many people in Thurles do that — of how many is it 

A. I know of my own personal knowledge that it is true of over 
a dozen, I am sure. 

Q. Do you show yourself on the streets of Thurles? 

A. Yes, in the day time, but not after dark. 

Q. You have been back in Thurles? 

A. Yes. 

Q. You do not sleep at night where you may be found? 

A. Yes. 

Q. All these massacres take place at night? 

A. Yes, sir, always at night. The day I was coming away I was 
in Dublin, before I came here. The night before I came the whole 
block where I was staying was hemmed in by Black-and-Tans. I 
was afraid I would be detained, and so I left early in the morning. 
I came down in a taxi cab to see my sister. The motor car was 
held up by two armed soldiers by the road and I was ordered out by 
the side of the road to be searched. The officer came along and 
looked me over and said, "I guess we will have to go back." And 
so I made the boat just in time. 

Q. You had a passport? 

A. Yes, I had a passport. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did you come here in response to the 
invitation of this Commission? 

A. Yes, sir. 


Q. Has the Republican organization in any way of your knowl- 
edge aided or abetted or encouraged the commission of murders 
of officers? 

A. Never. 

Q. Has there been any action taken, secretly or in any way, to 
wreak vengeance upon English soldiers who are implicated in re- 

A. No. 

Q. As conditions are such as you have described, it is but natural 
that there have been excitable Irish citizens who engage in assaults. 

A. But they control themselves. In the town of Littletown there 
was a police barracks. About three weeks ago that barracks was 
attacked on Sunday afternoon and taken without a shot being fired. 
The members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, men who were there, 
were taken out and never molested, and told to wait for a time until 
the men took away the stuff in the barracks, and they were never 
injured. That was a case where they captured the whole barracks 
and had all the men in their hands, and none of them were ever 

Q. Has the movement in Ireland for an Irish Republic been 
based upon orders that murders or the loss of life shall never be 
tolerated or committed? That is, has the campaign of the Irish 
Republican authorities been one of passive resistance? 

A. Yes, certainly. The organization is there for the establish- 
ment on a permanent basis of the Irish Republic if possible. 

Q. To what extent have they proceeded to organize by passive 
resistance? What is their plan? 

A. They set up their own executive bodies. The arbitration 
court is an instance of it. In our council, for instance, we have 
repudiated the authority of England to hold any dictatorial power 
over us or forbid us to do this or to do that. We have our own 
government now, established with what is known as all the public 
representatives of the people assembled. We have a regular 
executive organized. 

Q. In a word, your organization has appealed to the people of 
Ireland to make known through their votes their wishes to abandon 
any association with the British Government and to establish a 
government of their own? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And you were elected to form a town council to notify the 


British authorities that you would not recognize the British Govern- 
ment but would establish an Irish Government? 

A. Exactly. We repudiated any connection with Britain. 


Q. To what extent have you gone in warning and preventing 
your supporters and aids from doing violent acts, and what steps 
have you taken to prevent lawlessness in Ireland? 

A. We have established in Ireland our own police, who have 
been very effective in bringing to account those who have been 
guilty of burglary and assaults and larceny and everything of that 
sort. They have captured the criminals in several cases of hold-ups 
of banks in Ireland. The streets of Dublin at night time are 
policed by our men. 

Q. Is there any other authority appointed and named and elected 
by the people of your town and the towns of the vicinity, other than 
what has been elected by the people with a desire to have a republic 
in Ireland? 

A. Is there any other authority in operation? 

Q. In operation elected by the people? 

A. No. 

Q. The only other authority is the British army and the Royal 
Irish Constabulary? 

A. Yes. 

Q. No civil authority? 

A. No, there is no civil authority now with the exception of the 
Republican executive bodies. 

Q. There is no other group of civilians, either elected or named 
by the British Government, seeking to administer to the people 

A. No. 

Q. How many British soldiers or members of the Roval Irish 
Constabulary in the last two years have been assaulted, killed, or 
murdered by unknown parties in your vicinity? 

A. In the vicinity? In the town there have been two cases of 
shooting in or near the town. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: In the last two years did the Repub- 
lican police try in any way to investigate or protect the constables? 

A. Do you mean on this particular occasion? 

Q. On any occasion? 

A. On the first occasion our police were not operating. That 
was a good while as;o, two years ago. But thev have been very 


active since. I have known of cases of soldiers rescued from the 
hands of mobs; that is to say, drunken soldiers who are taken and 
apt to be maltreated. I have known them to be taken and rescued 
by the Irish police officers. 

Q. Are they known as such? 

A. Oh, no. They act secretly. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: What would happen to a man who was 
known to be acting as an Irish police officer? 

A. He would be arrested on the spot. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: I mean about policing the town 

A. There is more terror struck into criminals now than ever 
before. They know they cannot escape from the Irish Republican 

Q. What happens to a man who is taken by your police? 

A. He is taken to what is known as an unknown destination. If 
the destination was known the army would swoop down on them. 

Q. Has he a regular trial? 

A. Yes, a regular trial. 

Q. What happens to him? You have no jails. 

A. Sometimes there are jails. A secret house will do. And 
there are fines. And we order them to leave the district. They 
may be deported out of that, and sent away. Very often they are 
taken down to the boat and sent away to the other side, for very 
often they are from the other side. 


Q. Commissioner Maurer: To what extent is the town you live 
in organized? 

A. I beg your pardon. 

Q. To what extent is the town you live in organized as far as 
labor is concerned? 

A. All the labor possible in our town is organized, and then we 
have a trades council, which consists of elected members from the 
trades unions. 

Q. Is this council molested in any way? 

A. Oh, yes. There has been a meeting of the Irish Transport 
Workers broken up by the police. 

Q. Are the organized labor groups in sympathy with the Re- 


A. Oh, every one of them. One hundred per cent. Every one 
of them. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Can you give us a financial statement of 
the amount of damage that has been done to property in your 
vicinity by attacks on your town? 

A. By attacks on the town? 

Q. What that represents in dollars and cents? 

A. No, I would not attempt to do that. That would be a 
financial matter that I could not answer. 

Chairman Howe: It is now one o'clock. We will adjourn until 

2:25 P. M. 
Chairman Howe: Will the hearing please come to order? Are 
there further questions that members of the Commission want to 
ask the witness? 


Q. Senator Walsh: There is one question I want to ask the 
last witness. To what extent, if at all, have restrictions been put 
upon the printing in the press of Ireland of news items relating to 
the activities of the Republican movement and the officials of your 

A. All the papers have been warned from the English Govern- 
ment that if they publish any news like that they will be suppressed. 

Q. Have you any specific instances where there has been a re- 
fusal to print propaganda in favor of the Republican movement? 

A. On the occasion of the floating of the Republic Loan, any 
paper that published the advertisement, the prospectus, was im- 
mediately suppressed. 

Q. Were they suppressed? 

A. Yes, there and then they were suppressed. 

Q. Do you know how many papers were suppressed? 

A. One of the leading papers in Dublin, the Freeman, published 
it and was suppressed immediately. 

Q. Was that one of the papers of largest circulation? 

A. Yes. 

Q. To what extent has freedom of speech been restricted? 

A. No such thing as a public meeting is now allowed. 

Q. For how long a time has that been in force? 

A. For eighteen months or two years. 


Q. Has there been any interference with the religious rights of 
the people? 

A. Oh, yes. On my own experience, a fortnight before I left 
for here. I was leaving a church. The whole street was suddenly 
blocked up by motor lorries and soldiers, and every man coming 
out of the church was held up and searched. 

Q. How many were thus held? 

A. There must have been thousands. 

Q. When was that? 

A. About a Sunday before the seventh of November. 

Q. Just this year? 

A. Just this year, just before I left. 

Q. What were they searching for, arms or documents or some- 
thing else? 

A. It must have been arms. I presume arms. 

Q. Has there been any interference of your personal knowledge 
of the holding of religious services by any religious denomination? 

A. Not of my own experience. 

Q. Do they have religious services at night? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Are they still held at night? 

A. They are. 

Q. What if any effect upon the attendance is due to this con- 
dition you have described? 

A. We have missions in Ireland, perhaps once a year, for a 
particular parish or a particular church. It has happened that as 
the people came out of the churches, it might be a bit late, they 
have been stopped and searched. 

Q. Apparently to find out if they are carrying arms? 

A. Yes, sir. 


Q. Chairman Howe: Much of your testimony related to the 
early part of this year? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Are the conditions improving or getting worse? 

A. Getting worse. As to that there can be no question. There 
is now no end of suppression of freedom of speech. 

Q. How about the military authorities? Are there more clashes 
with their men than two months ago or not? 

A. It is constantly reported in the papers daily that more 
troops are coming over, coming by thousands. 


Q. You mean that troops are being massed by the thousands? 

A. Yes, sir, 

Q. Do they come organized as a military expedition or more 
as a police force? 

A. It is very hard to place this Auxiliary Corps I spoke of 
under any head. It is not a police force. It is more for raiding 
purposes. It seems to be particularly the duty of the Auxiliary 
Corps to carry out raids on houses. 

Q. You have described conditions around about Thurles. How 
is it elsewhere? 

A. I have had experience at Dublin for the past few weeks 
before I left. You might be going down the main streets any time 
of the day, and suddenly you hear a shout, "Whoop," and suddenly 
both ends of the street are stopped up. Shots are fired over the 
heads of the bystanders and then everyone is searched. Now they 
are always accompanied by armored cars carrying machine guns. 
The armored cars drive right up on the foot path where the people 
stand so that they have to clear out in all directions in order to 
escape. On almost any street of Dublin you can see these armored 
cars going along with bayonets sticking out, and very often they 
fire shots, apparently to see the women and people scream and fly 
in all directions. 

Q. Very often they fire in the air? 

A. Yes. 

Q. The reason for searching persons is to see if they have any 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How do they do it? 

A. They take a particular street or a particular section and 
search that. There was D'Olier Street a short time ago. Both ends 
of the street were cut off by a cordon. No one was allowed to go 
inside it. They were raiding some house inside that area. A shot 
went off. Immediately an officer gave orders to his men and they 
immediately lay flat on the ground with their guns pointed on the 
ready. Suddenly a man rushed out of his office and said to the 
officer: "Hold, that shot was fired by one of your own men." The 
officer had the presence of mind to say "Hold" to the men. And it 
was found that a soldier had accidentally dropped his rifle and it 
had gone off. It was only the presence of mind of the man who 
rushed out of the office that saved the situation. 



Q. Commissioner Addams: I would like to know whether, in 
your official position as executive of the town, if there should 
be another of these killings of constables, you would feel it a part 
of your official duty to go into it and try to apprehend the man 

A. You must remember that that does not come within the 
scope of my duties. We do not have that power now and we did 
not have it under the old regime. We cannot do anything of that 
kind. We have no control over this Irish Constabulary force. We 
cannot direct them to do this or to do that or anything else. 

Q. But if he is injured on the streets of the town of which you 
are acting mayor, you can do nothing about it then? 

A. No. We have nothing to do at all about that. We have no 
power to do anything. 

Q. Under the old system could you call upon the Royal Irish 
Constabulary to preserve order? 

A. Anybody can do that. 

Q. But you had no authority under the old system? 

A. No. 

Q. Under the present system you are looked upon as outlaws 
and as enemies of the British Government? 

A. Yes. 


There is a point about the coroner's inquest that I spoke of this 
morning. Now there are no coroners' inquests allowed. 

Q. Chairman Howe: When did they stop? 

A. Within the last couple of months, when this latest emergency 
legislation came out. The coroners are warned not to hold any 
inquests in case of a shooting. Instead, a military inquest is held 
and an official account is later issued. In fact, English newspaper 
reporters writing up the situation have been threatened openly by 
the police. 

Q. Can you give a specific instance of that? 

A. Mr. Hugh Martin, who represents some big English paper, 
was across in Ireland for his paper, and he wrote up an account of 
a shooting by the Constabulary, and he reports that his life was 
threatened on the streets of Tralee. 


Q. What kind of a threat? 

A. That if he did not clear out he would be taken. 


Q. To what extent have the Irish citizens refused to serve in the 
British courts? 

A. They have absolutely refused to obey the summons of these 

Q. Is that practically unanimous all over Ireland? 

A. Yes. 

Q. The same thing is true about the Irish Constabulary? 

A. Yes. 

Q. So it is practically impossible for the British Government 
to get a citizen of Ireland to serve on a jury or in the Irish Con- 

A. Yes, sir; quite difficult. 

Q. Are there any other civic bodies where Irishmen formerly 
rendered service under British authority where they have protested 
against it now, other than police and jury service? 

A. Of course the magistrates have all handed up their magis- 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh : Are there any magistrates now except the 
R. M.'s — that is, the resident magistrates, who are paid officials? 

A. No. 

Q. So the protest has practically gone to the extent of every 
Irish man and woman refusing to hold a position of authority in 
Ireland under British rule? 

A. Yes, they refuse to recognize the functions of the other party 
in Ireland. 


Q. Are there any other points you want to bring out? 

A. There is just one other case in regard to shootings, which 
happened in Thurles. There was a man named Cleary. I happened 
to be in Dublin at the time. This night his brother by some means 
got word not to sleep in his own house. His name was John — 
John Cleary. So he did not go home and sent word to his mother 
not to allow his brother to sleep in his house either. Michael 
stopped out until one in the morning, and then thought that every- 
thing was quiet and safe and proceeded home. At one-thirty there 
was a knock at the door, and he went down in his trousers and 
opened it. He was immediately confronted by four armed men 
wearing trench helmets, and was asked something about whether he 


knew anything of the killing of a policeman, and immediately he 
was fired upon. The bullet entered his chin and penetrated the 
shoulder and came out of his back. He had a very narrow escape 
with his life. Fortunately, he has not died. He was not the man 
they wanted. They wanted his brother. The same night the as- 
sistant town clerk of Thurles was looked up, about a half hour 
subsequent to that. He was not at home at the time. 

Q. Who was Cleary? What was his position? 

A. He was a coach builder in the town. 

Q. A reputable citizen? 

A. Yes. He was only a young chap, an ex-pupil of mine. 

Q. How old? 

A. About twenty-three. 

Q. Was he a Republican in politics? 

A. ^es, he was known as a Republican. He did not have a 
very prominent part, however. 

Q. What was the date of this shooting? 

A. I cannot give you the exact date. However, it would be about 
five weeks ago. 

Q. Had any British officer been injured or shot previous to that? 

A. No. 

Q. Was it, to your knowledge, due to any act of assault or 
murder committed by the citizens of your town? 

A. We could not find anything at all happened. 

Q. So far as you know, what was the motive for these British 
officers to call at this house, either for Cleary or his brother? 

A. They probably considered that his brother was a member of 
the I. R. A., the Irish Republican Army. They probably intended 
to take him out and shoot him. He was not there, and so they shot 
the brother instead. 

Q. What was the question they asked him? 

A. Did he know anything about the shooting of a policeman. 

Q. Had there been any policeman shot? 

A. No, not since the preceding January. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is there any other testimony? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: We have one question we would like to ask 
him. You detailed a number of coroners' inquests wherein the 
verdict was that it was a wilful murder. Was there any action 
taken after the coroner's jury verdict by the British Government? 

A. No. 



Chairman Howe: I might say that the cablegrams asking witnesses 
to come here were sent to officials of towns and cities which were 
quoted as towns in which outrages of some kind were carried on. 
The Commission cabled to Belfast and thirty-four other towns, to 
the mayors of those towns. It was an impersonal cable rather than 
a personal cable. 

Q. Senator Walsh: You personally received a cable from this 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When did you receive it? 

A. On the Sunday before I left. 

Q. So no Irish society brought you here? 

A. No, I came only at the request of the Commission. I re- 
ceived a cablegram and immediately proceeded the following Sun- 
day morning. 

Senator Walsh: I am asking you because I want it a matter of 
record that you are brought here and your expenses are paid by this 
Commission, and you came as a witness for the Commission. 

( The witness was thereupon excused. ) 

Chairman Howe: There are three Americans who have recently 
been in Ireland who are here and want to testify and get away this 
afternoon. They are Father English and Mr. Furnas and Reverend 
Cotter. The testimony of these American witnesses will be con- 
ducted by the Commission. Father English. 


Q. Chairman Howe: Father English, will you please state your 
name and residence and your professional position and any other 
preliminary facts? 

A. My name is Michael M. English. I live in the town of 
Whitehall, Montana. I am the pastor of the Catholic Church there, 
the only Catholic Church in the town. 

Q. Where were you born? 

A. In Ireland. 

Q. How long have you been in America? 

A. I have been in America for thirteen years. I came to this 
country in 1907. 

Q. Where did you get your education? 

A. In Saint Paul. Minnesota. 


Q. Are you an American citizen? 

A. I am. 

Q. When did you become an American citizen? 

A. Just one year ago. The reason the citizenship was postponed 
was that because, when I arrived in this country, I was just sixteen 
years of age, and waited until I was twenty-one before getting my 
first papers. Then I made a visit back to Ireland, and I found upon 
my return that I could not get my citizenship papers because of 
my absence from the country on my trip to Ireland. I had to 
take out my first papers again, and became a citizen just as soon 
as possible. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Are there any other preliminary facts? 

A. No. 

Q. You have been recently in Ireland. Now proceed and tell 
what you saw. 

Senator Walsh: What was your reason for going to Europe? 

A. First of all, to visit my parents in Ireland and to visit in 
England some friends of mine, and to visit France, Italy, and espe- 
cially Rome. I arrived in Ireland about the third of May of this 
year. I sailed from Cove in Ireland about the first of September. 
I was in Ireland all of this time with the exception of about five 
weeks, which I spent in France and England upon two occasions. 

Q. Proceed with the story of your experiences in Ireland. 


A. The part of the story I wish to relate first is the most intimate 
experience I had in Ireland. It occurred on the evening of Mon- 
day, the twenty-ninth of August. I left my father's home on Tues- 
day, the thirtieth of August, to go to Cove and take the boat for 
America the next day. 

Q. Cove was formerly Queenstown? 

A. Yes. That is the name it legally has now, even under 
British law. 

Q. Did you not state where your father's home was? 

A. In the County of Limerick. 

Q. The parish? 

A. The parish is Templebredan. The nearest town is Hospital, 
four miles away. On this evening, while my baggage was being 
made up, consisting of two grips and a trunk, I was in my father's 
house, which is about a hundred yards from the road. About half 
past five a military lorry came down the road from the direction 
of the town of Hospital and stopped at the gate. The soldiers ran 


into the avenue and surrounded the house. There are two doors 
in the house, a kitchen door and a hall door facing the road on the 
other side. I came to the hall door just in time to see the troops 
form a circle around that end of the house. These troops, I might 
explain, were dressed in khaki and wore trench helmets and carried 
rifles with bayonets on them. Two men who seemed to be officers, 
whom we afterwards discovered to be officers, were armed only with 
revolvers in their belts. One of these officers came to the door and 
demanded that all of the men in the house must come out on the 
lawn in front of the house and be searched. They told my mother 
that the ladies and myself did not need to come out, because I was 
a priest. My brothers were all searched except my small brother, 
about seventeen, who said, "I refuse to come out." And the officer 
pulled his revolver and said: "You come out or I will give you 
the contents of this." Then the search went on. As my father's 
watch was taken out of his pocket he said, "I want you to return 
the watch." The officer said: ''Escort this man to the lorry." The 
search of the other men proceeded. The body search was finished 
in about fifteen minutes. Then the officers attempted to enter the 


I was standing in the hall door. I said: "I want to know who 
the commanding officer is." He said, "I am." I said, "I have 
property in this house, my personal belongings. As an American 
citizen I require that these be immune from search." He said, 
"Your American citizenship does not count here. You are on Brit- 
ish soil." I said, "Still I am an American, and subject only to 
the ordinary civil courts." He said, "That does not count. Your 
citizenship does not entitle you to any privileges here." He re- 
peated, "It does not count here, and your property will be searched." 
Then I said, "I am anxious on my return to America to enter a 
protest to my government against this. In order that my protest 
may be intelligent, I want to know your name, your rank, and the 
name of your regiment." He said, "I absolutely refuse to give you 
any information." I said, "Do you mean that I am not going to 
know who is searching me?" He said, "I will give you no infor- 
mation whatever. I have been forbidden to do so. I cannot do it." 
I said, "Then I require you to produce your authority for searching 
me." He tapped his revolver and said. "This is my authority." 
I said, "That is not enough." He said, "Do you want to see a little 
more of it?" 

The search of the house proceeded. They started on the lower 


floor. There is a parlor, a large room, and a little breakfast room 
on the lower floor. One of the officers, whom I afterwards dis- 
covered to be Captain V. H. Wells (the other one, with whom I 
held the conversation, was afterward discovered to be Major Gray), 
— the captain went into the little breakfast room accompanied by 
my mother. The major asked me to accompany him on his search. 
In the parlor he took the rug off the floor. I also wish to state 
that during the search no property was damaged in any way. He 
removed the rug off the floor, lifted up the tablecloth, examined 
all papers in the room, took the pictures off the wall and removed 
the cardboard off the back of them. Evidently he was looking for 
documents. On the mantel piece were also some letters of mine 
addressed to me, containing nothing but social and personal cor- 
respondence. These the major took in his hand. I said, "All these 
letters are mine." He said, "I am going to read them." He put 
them in his pocket, although I requested him to hand them over 
to me. Those letters were never returned. The captain, who 
searched the other room, reported that he was through. Then all 
four of us went upstairs. On one side of the stairway upstairs are 
two rooms, one the room that I had been using, and the other room 
used by a couple of my brothers. I stood again in the door leading 
into the room which I had been occupying, and I said, "This is my 
room. There is nothing in here that is not my property, and I insist 
as an American citizen that it be not searched, at least without a 
proper warrant." The major stated again that that made no differ- 
ence, and the protest was unavailing. My mother accompanied the 
captain during the search of my room. I went into my brothers' 
room with the major. In that room is a wardrobe with coats and 
vests and trousers hanging in it, and one bed. He searched the 
wardrobe. In a pocket of the wardrobe he discovered a card of 
membership in the Irish Volunteers, made out in the name of 
Patrick English, a brother of mine. He showed me this card at 
the time he found it. He said, "Who is Patrick English?" I re- 
fused to give him any information whatever. He said, "We will 
take every man here until we discover who he is. We will remove 
them all." He proceeded with the search. He took the bedclothes 
off the bed, including the mattress, removed the rug again off the 
floor, looked on top of the wardrobe and under it (it was a loose 
wardrobe, not attached to the wall), and then he sounded the ceiling 
with the butt of his revolver, and he sounded portions of the floor 
and the wall. In the meantime, the captain, as I have stated, was 
conducting the search of my room. I went in there with the major. 
This captain who was conducting the search in mv room never at 


any time appeared in the room where we were. I discovered that 
things were considerably upset, but nothing damaged, indicating 
that a very thorough search had been made. I found that other 
letters which were only of a personal nature were taken, that a 
photo which had been taken of myself in Butte, Montana, many 
years ago had also been taken, and that notes of mine from my 
trip around England, Ireland, and France had also been taken, i 
asked the major again for the return of these notes, but he again 
refused. They also searched the rooms on the other side of the 
stairway. As far as I know, nothing was taken. Then we all went 

The major said. "Who is Patrick English?" My brother stepped 
out. He said, "You are under arrest." They removed my brother 
down to the gate. My mother, my brother, and myself went down 
to the gate to see him off. He said, "What charge have you against 
me?" The major refused to reply. As we were going down to the 
gate. I warned the others to go back. I said, "They might fire on 
us. They are liable to turn the machine gun in the lorry on us. 
We had better go back." 


As a continuation of this, the next morning, as I was leaving for 
Cove to take the boat, the next morning about half past ten a young 
man who lives in a house about three miles from there named Kirby 
came up there and said to me privately, "Our house was raided last 
night at midnight. They asked where you lived and one of them 
said, 'We are going to shoot English on the morrow.' " That was 
the last I heard until I got to Montana, and I got a letter which 
said that my brother had been sentenced to six months. I also got 
a letter from my father, who said that on the next evening the 
Black-and-Tans came and surrounded the house and fired on my 
brothers, who were out in the fields around the house, but they did 
not get hurt. The District Inspector was in charge, and he asked 
for the Reverend English. He was told that I was on my way to 
America. The District Inspector swore that if ever he got his hands 
on me. it would be a long time until I saw New York. On the 
mantelpiece was a picture of George Washington. 

Q. Who was this District Inspector? 

A. He was the district inspector of police from a place called 
Pallas. He took the picture of George Washington, threw it on 
the floor, and put his heel on it and said, "This is what ought to 
happen to all these bloody Americans." 

That is all of my personal experiences. 


Q. Senator Walsh: Did you at any time during your presence 
in that town participate in any way in political matters? 

A. No, I made up my mind that I would not take any part in 
politics. I was asked to speak on one occasion in Limerick, but 
refused on that ground. 

Q. Did your father or brothers participate in any way in any 
attacks upon British officers or authorities? 

A. No, not at any time. 

Q. Can you give us any information why they singled out the 
house where you were for this raid? 

A. The explanation which I think is feasible is that, like other 
people in that part of the country, my father is known to be de- 
sirous of a Republican government in Ireland. He has made no 
secret of it, and has advocated it on all occasions. He happens to 
be one of the most prominent farmers in that part of the country. 
I suppose that was one reason. Another reason is, and I forgot to 
state it, in the course of the search a telegram was found in one of 
the rooms — an old telegram. It was sent by me to my brother. It 
was sent from Lisdoonvarna, in the County of Clare. I sent it about 
the first of August to my brother Patrick, who was arrested that 
night. There were races taking place in Galway. I had been away 
from home about two weeks, and had wired to my brother to join 
me at the race meeting. Everybody goes to the race meetings in 
Ireland. I wired him: "Will you be able to come to the meeting 
in Galway? Bring New York papers." The major discovered this 
and called the captain's attention to it (he carefully refrained from 
calling him captain), and said, "Here is something." That was 
pocketed. This bore out a suspicion they might have had that I was 
a medium for communication between New York and Ireland. 

Q. This meeting was a race meeting and they interpreted it as a 
political meeting? 

A. Yes, evidently. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: You mentioned that when your 
father's watch was taken, he asked that the watch be returned, and 
then the officer in command ordered that he be taken away. What 
happened to your father? 

A. He was sent back when the lorry left. He was only taken to 
the gate. He was not injured in any way. 


Q. How old is your father? 

A. About fifty-one years of age. 

Q. A farmer? 

A. Yes, a farmer. 

Q. How large a home have you there? 

A. It is about sixty acres, which is a fair-sized farm in that part 
of the country. 

Q. Did your brothers work upon the farm? 

A. Yes, with the exception of the one who is going to college. 

Q. This young brother of seventeen was going to college? 

A. Yes, he was going to Rothwell. 

Q. There was nothing in the conduct of the members of your 
family that would justify such a raid? 

A. Absolutely nothing, except that our sympathies were well 

Q. Did you find out that the sympathies of the other people in 
that village were of the same kind? 

A. Yes, the sympathies of all the people in that part of the 
country are Republican. 

Chairman Howe: Now you may proceed. 


The Witness: I will try to give a chronological account of my 
experiences. I remained in Ireland all the time, except for a brief 
visit in France and England, up to my departure for this country. 
In traveling around to visit my friends it was an ordinary experience 
to be held up by the military on the country roads. A motor lorry 
would be alongside the road surrounded by soldiers, and everybody 
in the car was searched and the car itself was searched, all except 
myself. I never was searched, although I was held up many times 
with others who were searched. These lorries drive along the prin- 
cipal roads almost every day, going to and fro at a high rate of 

Q. Will you describe these lorries? 

A. The lorry is a large truck with an automobile engine. It is 
very large. It seats between twenty and thirty. In the large ones 
they have machine guns, and soldiers or Black-and-Tans ( it depends 
upon who is going in the lorries), silting along the side and in the 
back with rifles at the ready. These soldiers and Black-and-Tans 
frequently fire on cattle or horses and destroy them on their trips 
around the country. I will give one example of which I have per- 
sonal knowledge. About a half mile from my place lives a neigh- 


bor in a cottage by the road. He has about a half acre of ground. 
His hogs are generally along the road by the house. The road itself 
is about twenty-five feet wide, and on either side there is a hard 
surface. Along the side by the hard surface is a grassy surface 
about eight to ten feet wide on either side. One afternoon a lorry 
was passing along, and two pigs were on the hard surface between 
the road and the fence. It was a big heavy lorry filled with sol- 
diers. The lorry turned in off the road and ran over the pigs, 
breaking the back of one and the legs of the other, so that they had 
to be butchered. I came along about a half hour after this, and 
the young man showed me that the lorry had turned off the road 
and ran almost into the fence in order to run over the pigs. I give 
this as an instance of the mischief they do. 


On the night of the fourteenth of August there was a shooting in 
the town of Hospital. On the morning of Sunday, the fifteenth of 
August, I went from my own place to the town of Hospital, and 
there I found the people in a state of terror. I discovered upon 
investigating that upon the previous night a number of soldiers had 
entered the house of a man named Lynch, Patrick Lynch, a harness 
maker, a single man forty years of age living with his two sisters 
and a blind father. These soldiers had entered his house at eleven- 
thirty on Saturday night, the fourteenth of August, while they were 
on their knees saying the rosary. They dragged him — or rather 
they first asked him to come along. He said, "Just a minute until I 
get my cap." They said, "You will not need your cap in the place 
to which you are going." They took him out about a hundred 
yards to a place called the Fair Green, the village square. And 
then they shot him. 

The local doctor lives in a place about fifty yards from where he 
was shot, and they dragged him out and told him a man was shot. 
He had lived in this town about thirty years, almost as long as 
Lynch himself. The doctor saw that Lynch was dead. There were 
about four wounds in his head. His body was badly battered. The 
powder marks were on his face in such a way that the doctor did 
not recognize him. He asked the military who the man was. He 
said, "Does he live in this town?" The doctor knew Lynch, but 
he did not recognize the body, and he could not understand why he 
should be shot. So he went clown with the military to Lynch's 
house, and knocked on the door and asked the sisters and said. "Is 


vour brother home?" They said, "No, the military took him out 
about half an hour ago." He then knew it was Lynch. 

Q. Had they notified the sisters? 

A. Yes. The next day a report was made public by the police 
that Lynch was shot by the forces of the Crown in attempting to 
escape from arrest. An inquest was arranged for. This was before 
the abolition of coroners' inquests in the county of Limerick. I 
believe it was called for the following Saturday, which would be 
about the first of August, I think. At the request of the county 
coroner, who corresponds roughly to what we call the county at- 
torney, the inquest was postponed for two weeks. 

Q. At whose request? 

A. The county coroner, the representative of the British Gov- 
ernment, requested that the inquest be postponed. At the end of 
two weeks it was held. I was present at the inquest in Hospital 
on Monday, about the twenty-second of August, if Monday was the 
twenty-second of August. It was called for one o'clock in the 
afternoon. The coroner was there. A jury was there, which had 
been summoned by the Head Constable of the Constabulary at the 
next police barracks, which was about five miles away. The wit- 
nesses were there, and the audience. 

Q. The jury was not from that town? 

A. No, the jury was not from that town, but summoned by the 
police from five miles away. They waited for the appearance of 
the Crown Solicitor until three o'clock, and for the appearance of 
the witnesses of the military. Then a telephone call came from 
Limerick from the Limerick County Solicitor, Gaffney, stating that 
his side would put in no witnesses. The inquest was held. The 
doctor, his sisters, and all the other witnesses who saw how the man 
had died and the nature of his wounds, testified. The verdict was 
"wilful murder" against the military stationed in Hospital at that 
time. As far as I could discover, before I left Ireland and since, 
I have heard of no action whatsoever that was taken against any 
of those men who shot him, although a verdict of wilful murder, 
brought in under all the rules of English law in Ireland, was 

Q. Did the soldiers give any reason to the doctor, when they 
called him to view the body of Lynch, for murdering him? 

A. No, they gave no reason whatever. 

Q. Do you know from your personal inquiries and investigation 
as to whether Lynch had been active in doing anything that would 
anger or create any hostility against him? 

A. I know that Lvnch, in the first place, was a man who was 


not in full possession of his faculties; he was not insane, but he was 
slightly what they call over there simple. I knew him when I went 
to school there at the age of sixteen. I knew him as a very harmless 
individual who never took part in politics of any nature, not even 
in the old days. 

Q. What explanation do you give for the murder of Lynch? 

A. The explanation that I heard around there from the people, 
and which has since been verified to a certain extent, was that they 
were looking for some Lynch or for another Lynch. They found 
that he was the only man of that name in Hospital, and they shot 

Q. Some Lynch that they thought was prominent in the Repub- 
lican movement? 

A. Yes, some Lynch that was prominent in the Republican 


Also in the town they seized the house of the man to whom they 
came first, of a man named Sullivan. His house overlooks the three 
short streets of the town. They seized this house about the middle 
of July — from the first to the middle of July. On the street in front 
they built a barricade of sand bags and stones, and in this barricade 
they placed a machine gun. This blockade and the hollow square 
inside it were always manned by some soldiers. One afternoon 
about a week after they had occupied this house, they turned the 
machine gun on one of the streets of the town and raked the streets 
of the town for fifteen minutes. Fortunately, the people got word 
in some way of what was going to be done, and there was no one 
injured, except glass broken and walls injured where they were hit. 

Q. Had any attacks upon soldiers been made in that town? 

A. No, absolutely none. The condition in Hospital was that 
that was a police barracks in Hospital until about the fifth of May. 
The police evacuated the barracks about the fifth of May and left 
for some other town. On the night that they evacuated the police 
barracks, it was burned. That was all that had happened in that 
part of the country at any time since 1916. 

Q. Had these men who had occupied these barracks and evacu- 
ated resigned? 

A. No, they had not resigned. They were moved from this 
barracks and taken to larger quarters. 



I live fourteen miles from the city of Limerick. Frequently 
during the summer I visited the city, staying over night or for 
three or four days, for I had some friends there. In the city of 
Limerick there is a large military barracks containing on an average 
perhaps six hundred soldiers. And then there are two police 
barracks, large ones, containing possibly four hundred, three- 
fourths of whom are Black-and-Tans, and the other members were 
the old members of the Royal Irish Constabulary. During the 
months in which I visited Limerick, it was a frequent occurrence 
for the Black-and-Tans to go out through the streets at night, and 
especially in one section of the town, Pennywell is the name of it, 
and there about eleven or twelve o'clock let loose their guns, firing 
in the air or at some house. Anyway, nobody was personally in- 
jured. I was present myself in Limerick one night. I was staying 
with a clergyman on the outskirts of the city. We had to walk 
through this district of Pennywell. As we were proceeding home 
some Black-and-Tans passed by us. Just as they turned into another 
street we heard firing, and concluded it was the Black-and-Tans 
firing there. And so it was. They were not attacked. They did 
not state that they were attacked. They were firing to terrorize the 
people. To such an extent was that true that this disrict of Penny- 
well was called the Pennywell sector of the city of Limerick because 
it was so often under fire. 

Then again, on Sunday, the fifteenth of August, on the day on 
which I had discovered about the shooting of Lynch, I went home 
to my father's house, about four miles away. I heard that a part 
of Limerick was on fire. On Monday I went to the city of Limerick 
to investigate the matter. I remained in Limerick on that occasion 
for three days. I went out to the Pennywell district and there I 
saw that, according to my estimation, about two hundred houses 
had been injured, some slightly and others more seriously. I 
found there the marks of bullets, and in a number of instances the 
marks of bombs, where bombs had been hurled through the win- 
dows and exploded on the floors; and other places where the fire 
was still smoldering. Whether the fires were set by matches or 
by direct application of bombs, I do not know. I discovered thai 
all that had been done on the day before by the Black-and-Tans. 
They also returned to the city proper and set fire or hurled bombs 
into two business houses, one of which was known as the Railway 
Bar, near the railroad station. 


Some time previous to that, on Queen Street in Limerick, a house 
belonging to a man named Hartney was destroyed at about mid- 
night. The members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, or men in 
their uniform, were seen running away from the house about mid- 
night. Immediately a tremendous explosion took place and blew 
the whole front of the house down, to such an extent that the second 
floor leaned down on the first floor. Fortunately, this was a tea 
shop, where tea and light lunches were served. There was no one 
in the house on this night, and there were no lives lost. 


Then again, in regard to the burning of creameries. On Tuesday, 
the twenty-second of August, I was passing through the town of 
Knocklong, in the County of Limerick, and there I discovered that 
the creamery was partially destroyed. It was a creamery belonging 
to a man named Cleeves, Sir Thomas Cleeves, a Unionist in politics. 
He lives in the city of Limerick, and had been knighted by the late 
King Edward. This creamery was one of the largest in the south 
of Ireland, probably hiring about fifty or sixty men, and was worth 
about three hundred thousand dollars. I stopped off there when I 
saw the crowd around. It was partially destroyed. I inquired from 
those around what had happened. They told me that at about two 
o'clock on that morning a lorry containing men in the uniform of 
the Royal Irish Constabulary appeared in town, entered the cream- 
ery, and threw bombs in the engine room, which was the center of 
the creamery, and attempted to set fire to other rooms in that 
creamery, and then left. The people, on the departure of the police, 
all turned out, and they extinguished the fire in a very short time 
in the other part of the building, but the bombs had already de- 
stroyed the machinery in the engine room. The central engine 
plant of the creamery was a total wreck, and the creamery was out 
of business and is as yet. The result is that the farmers in that part 
of the country — it is a dairying country — the farmers have been 
compelled to feed the milk which they sent to the creamery to the 
pigs and calves or throw it away. They can no longer supply it to 
the creamery, have it made into butter and cheese, and get a return 
for it. 

I must also state that no compensation has at any time been made 
by the British Government for any of the work of destruction that 
has been proved against its own forces in Ireland, especially in the 
line of the destruction of creameries and the blowing up and burn- 
ing of houses. 


Q. Did you hear of any explanation for ihe destruction of this 

A. Yes, I did. About the date that I arrived in Ireland, a fresh 
correspondent there, one of the representatives of the Paris Matin. 
had an interview with Lord French, the Lieutenant Governor of 
Ireland. This was published in the papers over there, the English 
and Irish papers. He asked French what the trouble was in Ireland. 
French said the difficultv in Ireland was two hundred thousand 
young men who should have emigrated. I believe that the only 
possible reason and the explanation that I heard around there was 
that the reason for the destruction of these creameries and other 
business houses was to throw out of employment the young men 
and compel them to leave the country — in addition, of course, to the 
auxiliarv reason, the attempt to terrorize out of the minds of the 
people their hope for independence. 

Q. Did the owner of this creamery, whom you state was a 
Lnionist, do anything there in that part that would create a hostile 
feeling toward him? 

A. Nothing except that he has been known as a Unionist in 
politics. He has taken no part in politics, however. He owns large 
creameries all over the south of Ireland, and large business estab- 
lishments in Limerick. 

Q. Has he made any statement of this matter? 

A. I am sure he has made a statement to the British Government, 
but no statement of his has been published. 


Q. Commissioner Maurer: May I ask the question: You have 
been close to some of these soldiers, these Black-and-Tans. Ireland 
is not dry. Have you noticed any drunkenness among them? 

A. I have. I have noticed in the city of Limerick a number of 
soldiers and Black-and-Tans that were very ostensibly under the 
influence of liquor. I have heard it stated in their barracks that 
they were given in their barracks free drink, in addition to their 
ration, especially just before going out on a raid. But I have seen 
them myself very much under the influence of liquor. 

Q. Chairman Howe: On duty or off duty? 

A. It is very difficult to tell. I know that they are almost always 
on duty. 

Commissioner Maurer: Oh, yes; a soldier is almost always on 
duty except when on leave of absence. 



The Witness: Then again events occurred over there while I was 
in Ireland. There was a charge made by Divisional Commissioner 
Smyth, of the Royal Irish Constabulary, to members of the police 
force in Listowel, in the County of Kerry. This charge was made 
about the fifth of July. It was a statement he made, a speech he 
made to them in their barracks. There were sixteen police in the 
barracks at the time. They published an account of the statement 
that Mr. Smyth made to them. They signed it and it was published 
in some of the Irish papers and English papers on Saturday, the 
tenth of July. 1 

Q. Senator Walsh: After these police officers had resigned? 

A. After they had resigned. The statement was made while they 
were official members of the police force. Afterwards they made 
it public. I have -the statement here. It is brief. I am going to 
read it for you, with your permission. The statement says: 

Mr. Smyth, the Divisional Commissioner, addressed us as fol- 
lows: "Well, men, I have something of interest to tell you, some- 
thing that I am sure you would not wish your wives to hear. I 
am going to lay all my cards on the table. I may reserve one 
card for myself. Now, men, Sinn Fein has had all the sport up 
to the present, and we are going to have the sport now! The police 
have done splendid work, considering the odds against them. The 
police are not sufficiently strong to do anything but hold their bar- 
racks. This is not enough, for as long as we remain on the defen- 
sive, so long will Sinn Fein have the whip hand. We must take 
the offensive and beat Sinn Fein with its own tactics. Martial law 
applying to all Ireland is coming into operation shortly. I am 
promised as many troops from England as I require: thousands 
are coming daily. I am getting seven thousand police from Eng- 
land. Now, men, what I wish to explain to you is that you are 
to strengthen your comrades in the outstations. If a police barrack 
is burned or if the barrack already occupied is not suitable, then 
the best house in the locality is to be commandeered, the occupants 
thrown out in the gutter. Let them die there — -the more the merrier. 
Police and military will patrol the country roads at least five nights 
a week. They are not to confine themselves to the main roads, but 
take across the country, lie in ambush, and when civilians are seen 
approaching, shout 'Hands up!' Should the order be not obeyed, 

1 The charge in question was made on the nineteenth of June, but was 
not published until several weeks later. See Report, Appendix "E." 


shoot and shoot with effect. If the persons approaching carry their 
hands in their pockets or are in any way suspicious-looking, shoot 
them down. You may make mistakes occasionally and innocent 
persons may be shot, but that cannot be helped, and you are bound 
to get the right parties sometimes. The more you shoot, the better 
I will like you; and I assure you that no policeman will get into 
trouble for shooting any man. Hunger strikers will be allowed to 
die in jail — the more the merrier. Some of them have died already, 
and a damn bad job they were not all allowed to die. As a matter 
of fact, some of them have already been dealt with in a manner 
their friends will never hear about. An emigrant ship left an Irish 
port lately with lots of Sinn Feiners on board. I assure you, men, 
it will never land. That is nearly all I have to say to you. We 
want your assistance in carrying out this scheme and wiping out 
Sinn Fein. Any man who is not prepared to do so is a hindrance 
rather than a help to us, and he had much better leave the job 
at once." 

This statement was made by Commissioner Smyth about the first 
of July in Listowel, before the members of the R. I. C. Their 
spokesman stood out and said: "We are Irishmen. It is evident 
that you must be an Englishman. We will not obey these orders." 
Smyth turned to the others and said, "Arrest this man ! " The others 
refused and said, "If this man is arrested, this room will run red 
with blood." This matter caused considerable comment even in 
England. The subject of conducting an investigation was broached 
in the House of Commons. The speaker of the House refused to 
allow the motion for an investigation to be put, on the grounds that 
it was outside of their sphere and not a matter of very great impor- 
tance. Smyth himself did not deny the statement that had been 
made. He simply said that his words had been misinterpreted. 1 


Another experience that I wish to give you is one that I had in 
England. It pertains to the affairs in Ireland. On my way on the 
train from London to Holyhead — 

Q. Senator Walsh: Do you think it pertains to this inquiry? 

A. Yes, it does. About the fifteenth of July I met a young man 
on the train who told me he was an army officer, a first lieutenant, 

1 In consequence of this speech. Divisional Commissioner Smyth was 
later shot and killed "by parties unknown" at the Cork County Club 
July 18, 1920. 


about to be sent to take command of his company in Ireland in the 
County of Roscommon. He told me he had been over there before 
and was home on a furlough for two weeks. He said, "I wish to 
God I never had to go over there again." I said, "Why?" He 
said, "Because it is the most distasteful work I have ever done." 
He looked young. I asked him, "How old are you?" He said, 
"I am not quite twenty-two yet, and only out of the military school 
a short time." I said, "What is the nature of your duties in Ire- 
land?" He said, "I command a body of about one hundred fifty 
men in the County of Roscommon. I am to look after that part 
of the country." I said, "Are you given full jurisdiction there?" 
He said, "Yes." I said, "How, for instance, would you act in the 
case of a riot or in case your men were going through the country 
and stones were thrown at them, or you saw people who looked sus- 
picious?" He said, "I have the right to order my soldiers to fire." 
The reason I introduce this is to show that a young man not yet 
twenty-two years of age has the power of life and death in that part 
of the country. 


In regard also to the law under which the people of Ireland, the 
British law under which they are living today, I wish to quote a 
couple of clauses from the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act. 
This order was promulgated and put in force in Ireland on the 
twenty-first or twenty-second of August last. 

"Regulations 2 and 3: Ordained that any Irish subject may be 
arrested and tried by court martial for an act done at any time in 
the past, which act was not at the time it was done but which is 
now an illegal act." 

"Regulation 3, Paragraph 6: Ordained that any Irish subject 
arrested may, on an order made by the competent naval or military 
authority, be detained in any of His Majesty's prisons until thence 
delivered by order of the competent naval or military authority." 

"Regulation 14, Paragraph 2: If any person has in his possession 
any document relating or purporting to relate to the affairs of any 
such association (these are proscribed associations) he shall be 
guilty of an offense against the regulation. Where a person is 
charged with having in his possession any such document and the 
document is found on the premises under his occupancy or under 
his control or on which he has resided, the document shall be pre- 
sumed to have been in his possession unless the contrary is true." 

Commonly known as the Coercion Act. 


Regulation 16 abolishes the coroners' inquests. Regulation 4, 
the fifth paragraph, ordains that any Irish subject can be sentenced 
to death for political offenses by these courts martial. 


Q. Senator Walsh: For the sake of having it appear in the 
record, we would like to ask you to say who invited you to testify. 

A. Mr. William MacDonald, the secretary of this Commission. 

Q. Have you come here solely at the request of this Com- 
mission ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. So that no Irish association has invited you? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. The reason for inviting you is that you have recently been 
to Ireland and know what is happening there? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You have spoken to none of the members of this Commission 
until today? 

A. No, I have not. 

Q. So that vou have not even communicated with Mr. Mac- 

A. No, sir; I have not. 

The witness was thereupon excused. 


Chairman Howe: Mr. John F. Martin, of Green Bay, Wisconsin. 

Q. Now, Mr. Martin, will you please qualify yourself profes- 

A. My name is John F. Martin. My residence is Green Bay, 
Wisconsin, and my profession is an attorney-at-law. 

Q. Are you an American citizen? 

A. Born in Green Bay, Wisconsin. 

Q. Born and always lived in Wisconsin? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You have recently been in Ireland? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When did you return? 

A. I sailed from Cove on the twenty-third of September. 

Q. When did you land in Ireland? 

A. I was in Ireland seven days. I might say that I went to 


Europe not specifically to visit Ireland, but as a member of the 
Commission of the Knights of Columbus to present the statue of 
La Fayette and incidentally to visit France and to present to King 
Albert and Cardinal Mercier a medal from the Knights of Colum- 
bus, and to the latter a check. I went from the duties of that 
Commission to Malignes and Brussels, and from there over to 

Q. How long have you practiced law? 

A. About twenty-five years. 

Q. What offices have you held in Wisconsin? 

A. I have never held any office in Wisconsin. 

Q. You have always been a plain practitioner of the law? 

A. Yes, very plain. 

Q. What office have you in the Knights of Columbus? 

A. I am a member of the Supreme Council of the Knights of 

Q. How long were you in Ireland? 

A. Seven days. I went into Dublin on the sixteenth of Septem- 
ber. My observations in Dublin would probably be not worth 
while. They were similar to those of Mr. Morgan. I wanted to 
visit Limerick, which was the birthplace of my mother; but I was 
advised that there was railway trouble. I wished also to visit 
Tipperary, but was informed that I could do that better by auto 
than by train. So I arranged to go by auto, accompanied by a 
British subject, Mr. J. J. Leary, of Saskatoon. 

Q. You say he was a British subject? Of what nationality? 

A. He was a Canadian of Irish parentage. 


We left our bags in Dublin and went by auto over to Tipperary, 
and then sought a conveyance to Limerick. We had considerable 
difficulty in procuring a conveyance to Limerick, but finally, after 
very diligent search, we got a man who promised to take us over. 
When he came to the hotel he had a very dilapidated Ford car, 
with half the hood gone and with one headlight that would not 
work. Without knowing anything of the experiences to encounter, 
we went along to Limerick Junction and Oola. We suddenly came 
across a great stone wall built across the road at Pallas. This 
stone wall was about six feet high and three or four feet thick, with 
an opening in the center just wide enough to permit a car to pass 
through. To the right-hand end of it, it circled around a house 
built up close to the road. I might say that many houses in that 


country are built up close to the road. It was about a two-story 
house with a flat roof. We got within perhaps a hundred feet of 
this stone wall when we saw six or eight men in uniform back of 
the wall. Three of them stepped to their rifles, which were resting 
on the wall, and one to a machine gun. One man was parading 
on the rather flat roof with a rifle, and all four were trained directly 
on us. The men behind the wall were aiming at us, and the man 
with the machine gun as well. They yelled at us, accompanied by 
the command to halt. I might suggest that less would have stopped 
us. After they had us thus covered, three men in uniform came 
out to search us. They did a very thorough job, searched the car, 
asked some questions, particularly of the driver. , They wanted 
especially to learn where we were going, and if we expected to come 
back through there that night. They finally let us go with the 
statement that we must get back by nine o'clock if we expected to 
get through there. We decided we would be back before nine 

We went over to Limerick and passed about an hour driving 
about Limerick. Owing to the nine o'clock restriction at Pallas, 
we abandoned my intention of visiting a little town not far from 
Limerick. On the streets we observe'd not hundreds but thousands 
of men in uniform, it seemed to me. As we were driving along, 
suddenly there sped out in the street in front of our car six, seven, 
or eight large fellows dressed in black uniforms. One whipped a 
revolver out of his back pocket and commanded the driver to halt. 
He did not stop the engine, because it was almost impossible to 
start the old engine after it was once stopped. They insisted, and 
the officer in charge of them commanded him to stop the engine. 
The officer became very abusive, and asked the driver some questions 
about his permit to drive about in that part of the country. The 
young man was not the owner of the car, but only the driver. It 
seemed that his permit was in the name of the owner. The official 
spokesman said, "Young man, you will go along with us." This 
was a little disconcerting to us, in view of the fact that our baggage 
was at Limerick Junction, twenty-five miles away. I ventured to 
say something to the officer: "Perhaps you overlooked the fact that 
I am an American citizen. I am here under a passport" — which I 
produced and showed to them — "and this young man is under my 
employ. We hired him this afternoon to take us over here and 
bring us back to Limerick Junction. This man with me is a Cana- 
dian citizen. I presume that he has a right to travel here. I am 
going to object to your right to interfere with my progress. I am 
due back at Limerick Junction tonight." He examined my passport 


and rather insolently tossed it back to me. I said, "I have further 
proof" — a ticket that I bought at Dublin for Mallow. He looked 
that over and finally he turned to the driver of the car and said: 
"On account of these men with you, you may go on this time, but 
don't let us find you here again or you will not get through." 

We hastened back to get through Pallas before the curfew hour. 
Incidentally, the lights did not work, and we had some tire trouble. 
We got to Pallas a little late, but explained that tire trouble had 
detained us, and we were allowed to go through without headlights. 
A little later we observed a lorry coming down the road with great 
large headlights. Our driver pulled alongside the road. The lorry 
stopped and searched us, but found nothing objectionable. We 
were allowed to go on, and got back to our hotel. 


The next day we went down to Killarney. We found the largest 
hotel there — I think it is the Southwestern, the largest hotel there — 
commandeered by the military and surrounded by a barbed-wire 
entanglement, around which were soldiers and officers parading. 

The next morning at ten o'clock we saw in front of that place 
eighty or ninety soldiers, and saw them march down and make a 
raid on the Presentation Convent, a place where they manufacture 
a very special brand of Irish lace, the excuse being that they sus- 
pected that firearms were there. 

We went from there to Cork, where we saw a greater number of 
motor lorries than at any other place. They were driving through 
the streets at a rapid rate of speed, sending the people helter-skelter, 
and promiscuously bent on frightening them. They were loaded 
as has been described to you before. The rear part of the lorry 
has a body, say, three feet high. In this the men were standing or 
looking over the top of the body, all with their rifles ready. We 
were told that night that two men were shot because they had failed 
to comply with the curfew law, which hour is ten o'clock there. 

We went to Cove, from which we were going to sail on the 
twenty-third. We learned down there that the town had been sacked 
and a reprisal made because of the killing of a soldier at a little 
town, I think Midleton, about fifteen miles outside of Cove. Hav- 
ing the conditions described to us by the young lady in the hotel, 
we walked down the street to make some observations. I personally 
counted, beginning at the Queen's Hotel and going up the street, 
within five blocks eighty plate-glass windows broken on both sides 


of the street. The little round holes in the broken windows looked 
like bullet holes, but we were informed that they were not; that 
they were made by what they call trench hammers. The lady who 
lived up at the end of where this district began said that late at night 
a band of soldiers came charging up the street. The officer in 
charge said, "Not a window left from here down to the station," 
and the work began. 

Q. Chairman Howe: They were broken by mallets? 

A. Yes; most of them were small, round holes, apparently like 
the hole of a stone. They said it was a small, round hammer that 
struck it. 

That is all that I think would be of any interest to you. I left 
there on the afternoon of the twenty-third. 


Q. Commissioner Maurer: What did you find among the people, 
a spirit of terror? 

A. Yes, I found that. But if I may give the results of my 
conversations, there was an absolute unanimity of opinion among 
the people that they were going to stick it out until they got the 
right to govern themselves. I talked, going out of Dublin on the 
train, with a man who appeared to be a very distinguished gentle- 
man, who told about the raid that took place at his home about 
a week before, while he was away at the races. A dozen or more 
men, all masked, came about midnight, searched his house for 
munitions and firearms, and finally found one sporting gun. His 
daughters were very much aroused and excited. The next day the 
military came along for the same purpose. I said, "I assumed that 
when you told about this first raid, you were speaking about the 
military?" He said, "Oh, no, I was speaking about the Sinn 
Feiners, and I was damn glad they got there first, for I would 
rather have them get it than the military. They probably heard 
the military intended to raid my house for arms, and so they beat 
them to it." He said, "My name is Kirk. I am not a Catholic. 
You Americans think that we are not in agreement over here because 
in some places there have been religious differences. But when it 
comes to politics we are all Irish, and we believe in the right of 
Irishmen to govern themselves." 

At Killarney we stopped at the Glede Hotel. Mr. Graham, a 
Scotchman, was the proprietor. He said, "We are all of one thought 
politically, and religion does not enter into it at all." 



Q. Senator Walsh: How did you happen to become a witness 

A. I don't know. I got a telegram from here signed William 
MacDonald. 1 

Q. That was all? 

A. Yes. I am a little curious to know how you knew that I 
was in Ireland. 

Q. It was through newspaper reports. You came solely at the 
Commission's request? 

A. I came at Mr. MacDonald's request; at his request only. 

Q. Chairman Howe: How much territory did you cover in 

A. I went to Dublin for two days, and then down to Limerick, 
about one hundred miles, and then down by train to Killarney, and 
over to Cork, and then down to Cove. 

Q. Two or three hundred miles altogether? 

A. I should think so, about that. 

Q. These conditions you have described are fairly typical in 
those towns? 

A. I think they are much worse in the north of Ireland. By 
reading the newspapers after I got back I find that we are not 
getting very much information over here. They are much worse 
in the north of Ireland. 


Q. Do you think the people are forming their own civil 
processes there? 

A. Yes. A young man of our party was fortunate enough to 
get into a Republican court, and he found that the people of Ireland 
are submitting their questions to their own courts and are perfectly 
glad to do so. 

Q. There is a de facto political life there? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Do you know anything about the 
industrial conditions of Ireland? 

A. Yes, a little. 

Dr. William MacDonald, Secretary of the Commission. 


Senator Walsh: Don't you think that a witness like Mr. Hackett 
could give us more about that? 

The Witness: The industrial life was very prosperous until the 
attacks on the creameries got in vogue, and that, of course, is putting 
them out of business. 

The witness was thereupon excused. 


Chairman Howe: Reverend James H. Cotter, of Ironton, Ohio. 

Q. What is your full name? 

A. Reverend Doctor James H. Cotter. 

Q. Where are you stationed? 

A. Saint Laurence Church, Ironton, Ohio. 

Q. You are the pastor there? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long have you lived in that town? 

A. Thirty-one years, over thirty-one years. In addition to being 
pastor, I would say that I am on the staff of The Columbiad, the 
Knights of Columbus organ. 

Q. That is to say that you are a member of the editorial staff 
of the Knights of Columbus official organ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long have you been a Catholic priest? 

A. Thirty-eight years. 

Q. All of that time your work has been confined to the State 
of Ohio? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where were you born? 

A. County Tipperary, Ireland. 

Q. How old were you when you came to America? 

A. Fifteen years. 

Q. Have you recently visited Ireland? 

A. Yes, sir. I have been there for eight weeks exactly. 

Q. What months? 

A. From the twenty-third of July to the twenty-third of Sep- 

Q. How long since you last visited Ireland? 

A. Twenty-three years. 

Q. What was the occasion of your visit to Ireland at this time? 

A. I went to visit Ireland because I was anxious to see for my- 
self the conditions there. 


Q. Not for the purpose of printing in any newspaper? 

A. Only as a result. I was for six years the editor of the Union 
and Times, of Buffalo, and I was then for three years editor of the 
Columbia, of Columbus, Ohio, and then for a while I was on the 
staff of the Columbiad. 

Q. So that you were desirous, for personal reasons and also 
for newspaper purposes, of studying the conditions in Ireland? 

A. Yes, so that I would know the questions intelligently and 
could discuss them editorially. 

Q. Will you relate to us your personal investigations of lawless- 
ness and military conditions in Ireland? 

A. When I went to Ireland first I landed in Dublin on the 
twenty-third of July. I was not long in Ireland before I learned 
that England's sole purpose was to tempt the Volunteers * into the 
open in order to mercilessly shoot them down. Ireland's sole pur- 
pose — it was a surprise to me, knowing that they were an enthusi- 
astic and political race — was to curb their passions, their indigna- 
tion, and anger. 


The first question that I desired to study was the religious ques- 
tion, naturally, as a sequence of my own profession. As my mother 
was a Protestant, I went to see my niece, who was married to an 
Episcopal rector, Reverend William Stewart, of Keenish Rectory, 
Enniskillen. That was as far north as I dared to go. 

Q. How far north is that? 

A. It is in Fermanagh, one of the nine counties of Ulster. 

I went to see my niece, who is married to this gentleman, and I 
was very curious to fathom his mind, since he lived in the north 
and differed from me in religious principle. I found him very 
much in sympathy with the Republican movement, and disowning 
the fact that there was anything like a religious difference in the 
movement. I in his presence drew the distinction between the 
Protestants of Ireland and the Orangemen. I held that the Protes- 
tants of Ireland were good and very sincere men, who served their 
God through their fellow men; while the Orangemen had only a 
creed of hatred begotten by the devil. 

I also went to see some relatives in Ballyeagan. I found the 
same conditions there. They did not ask what their neighbor's 

1 The Irish Volunteers, the nucleus from which the Irish Republican 
Army has been formed. 


faith was when it was a question of devotion to country and a desire 
for liberty. And at Ballingarry, where I have some more Protes- 
tant relatives. I found the same thing is true there. 

I also met some editors, or rather authors, since I was an author 
myself. I met Darrell Figgis, a Protestant author in Ireland. He 
holds a position in the Republican Government of Ireland. I also 
met Erskine Childers, whose book, "Military Rule in Ireland," I 
have here and with your permission will place in evidence. 

Q. Is that recently published? 

A. It is a revised edition of "Military Rule in Ireland," pub- 
lished not long ago. 

Q. What is the date of publication? 

A. Mr. MacDonald: Here is the date, 1920. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is the author of that a member of the Re- 
publican Party? 

A. He holds a state office in the Republican Government of 

Q. Do you happen to know his religion? 

A. Protestant. These are all Protestants. 

Q. You are now dealing with your experiences with Protestant 
people in Ireland? 

A. Yes. As far as I have gone they are all Protestant people in 
different parts of Ireland, in the north and in the south. Mr. Figgis 
lives in Dublin. Mrs. Bryce entertained me for an afternoon in her 
home in Bantry Bay. Mrs. Bryce is the sister-in-law of Ambassador 
Bryce, who was in this country. She was such a radical Sinn 
Feiner that I have learned she was once put in jail. She was going 
to Wales to lecture on the labor question, and while going she was 
arrested and put in jail for five hours. Then I met Mrs. Waddell, 
of Achill, in western Ireland. She is one who is heart and head 
with the Republican movement. 

Q. She is a Protestant also? 

A. Yes, Senator, I saw Protestants especially because I wanted 
to get the other side of the question, to see if there was any truth 
at all in the assertion that it was a religious question. 

Q. Chairman Howe: This Mrs. Waddell? 

A. Mrs. Waddell is a very wealthy lady whose estates are in 
Russia. She lives in the west of Ireland. Her estates there are in 

Then there is Mr. Biggs, a Protestant gentleman of Bantry, who, 
because he put a notice in the paper sympathizing with the move- 
ment and deprecating English propaganda, particularly the brand 
Americans got, his store, valued at thirty thousand pounds, was 


burned immediately afterwards — I think it was the next day or the 
next night, immediately after his declaration in the local paper. 
Then his magnificent home was commandeered by the military 
some short time after the burning of his store. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was any judicial action taken to determine 
who burned and destroyed his store and place of business? 

A. It was generally understood, and although no court was ever 
held on it, it was understood that it was the work of the military 

Q. What was the date of that destruction, approximately? 

A. It was previous, Senator, to my going to Ireland. 

Q. Do you know how long before? 

A. Something like a week before. 

Q. Did you see that man himself? 

A. No, I did not interview him. 

Q. Just talked with him? 

A. No, I did not see him, but it was very well known there. It 
was taken as a maxim that it was the work of the military as a 
matter of revenge. 

Q. For his public utterances of sympathy with the Republic? 

A. For his public utterances of sympathy. 


To Ulster I did not go, but I learned that the condition there 
was laboriously artificial — I mean as an argument against the Re- 
publican form of government for Ireland. It is a mixture of fanati- 
cism and the cry, "To hell with the Pope," in order to keep the 
laborers in the linen factories of Belfast away from the realization 
of the hell from which they themselves were suffering. Some of 
the girls there are working for a miserable pittance in water up 
to their ankles all day. It is well known that these linen factories 
are the subjects of great profit. Among the proprietors are Sir 
Edward Carson and Bonar Law. Regarding what I saw myself — 

Q. Senator Walsh: Before you take up that, Doctor, did you 
learn from these people with whom you had interviews as to the 
sentiment among their neighbors and parishioners, among people 
of Protestant faith? 

The Witness: Will you kindly repeat the question? 

Q. You have told us of the sentiment that these individuals have 
produced to you. Did they communicate to you the sentiment 
among their Protestant neighbors and parishioners? 


A. Yes, they remarked that their neighbors did not know what 
the faith of their other neighbors was; that they were all for the 
Republic. They were not interested in the other things. It was an 
issue which they met on common ground, and did not bother their 
heads about inquiring as to the religious convictions of the other 
parties interested. 

Q. Did you meet any Protestant men or women, or did you hear 
of any, that are out of sympathy with the Republican movement? 

A. Not one. As I stated, it is a laboriously artificial condition 
that they have a great difficulty to preserve in its present artificial 
state in the north. 

Q. You indicated that that is due to the efforts on the part of 
the manufacturing interests to divert their employees' attention from 
organizing so as to better their conditions? 

A. Yes. And that was confirmed by a passenger coming over, 
a Protestant gentleman who was leaving Belfast because of the 
fanaticism that was guilty of such wild work there. He was leaving 
Belfast forever and coming to this country. He confirmed the 
thought that I had got elsewhere. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Now will you continue? 


A. Yes. I want you to know, Senator, very particularly about 
the murder of Mayor MacCurtain, of Cork, for the reason that a 
thousand pounds reward — oh, yes, here it is; this affair, the burn- 
ing of Mr. Biggs's place of business was on July twenty-sixth — 
a thousand pounds reward was offered in the American papers for 
the arrest and conviction of the Sinn Feiners that murdered Mayor 
MacCurtain, of Cork. I was very anxious to know how that ques- 
tion stood, because of the hypocrisy that cloaked the crime. So I 
went to Cork and interviewed one of the jurors. I will not mention 
his name, for the reason that I would be fearful that something 
might happen to him as a result of the interview. He said: "Dr. 
Cotter, that street was guarded by the military. The converging 
street was guarded by the police. And in from the band of police 
went eight policemen and murdered the mayor of Cork" — Mayor 
MacCurtain, who preceded immediately Mayor MacSwiney; as 
afterwards his sister-in-law told me in Brixton Prison in London, 
murdered him with his babe in his arms. A policeman's button 
was found on the floor, but never was the circumstance considered 
at all. The verdict of the jury was that Mayor MacCurtain was 


murdered by Lloyd George, by Field Marshal French, Lord Lieu- 
tenant of Ireland; by Ian MacPherson, by Swanzy, the district in- 
spector of police, and some unknown members of the Royal Irish 

Q. Was that the verdict of the coroner's jury? 

A. That was the verdict of the coroner's jury. 

Q. Formed under English law? 

A. Yes, before they were abolished. They are abolished now. 

Q. I suppose that the verdicts were so often against the English 
Government that they thought it wise to abolish them? 

A. I do not know why, but the fact is that they were abolished. 

Again I say that I have a hesitancy in mentioning names of per- 
sons, because I believe it would be productive of disaster to them. 
Just as you know of men whom you have summoned and who will 
not get their passport, and who are in jail; like the guard of honor 
of eight who were sent over to accompany the remains of Mayor 
MacSwiney and are now in jail; they never came back from Eng- 


In Cork I was shown by Miss Mary MacSwiney, the sister of the 
late Lord Mayor, I was shown by her a bullet that flattens as it 
strikes. It was fired and intended for her, but went wide of the 
mark. This was a dum-dum bullet. It was not made in Ireland. 
There, instead of having a munitions factory, if you carry a gun 
you get two years or anywhere around that. 


The curfew is the cloak for night work. In Cork first came down 
from the barracks armed lorries, armed motor cars. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did you see these yourself? 

A. Yes. At ten o'clock or a little before ten — ten o'clock was 
the hour for the curfew, but they used to come a little before — 
these motor cars filled with soldiers with their guns at the ready and 
fixed bayonets. They would be accompanied often with tanks and 

Q. And this happened every night? 

A. Every night. And then the night made hideous with shots 
and shouts, making you tremble because of the indifference of the 
parties themselves and the lack of responsibility, as the sequel 

A. Down Patrick Street, the principal street in Cork. 


Now, to give you an instance of the way they found a pretense 
for what they called reprisals. A reprisal is a word that has an 
English and not a general meaning. It is an elastic term not found 
in our dictionary, but used by England at the present hour to justify 
any barbarity that has no connection whatsoever outside of manu- 
factured reason. Right opposite the Victoria Hotel, on the side- 
walk, there was a hand grenade thrown — on the sidewalk! The 
soldiery made this a reason for raiding the Cork Examiner's office, 
directly opposite the Victoria Hotel, and a shop called the Black 
Thorn Shop, where one hundred pounds' worth of stuff was taken. 
That night the raid was made, and they made the hand grenade 
the reason for that action. The hand grenade, however, came on 
the sidewalk. You have to suppose either one of two things: either 
that the man who owned the house had thrown a hand grenade from 
his own house at his own window, or that a man on the sidewalk 
threw it at his toe. It evidently came from the center of the street 
because of its marked destination. And yet that was made a reason 
for raiding the newspaper office and the Black Thorn Shop. I give 
this as an instance of a manufactured reason for wanton conduct. 

Q. Do I understand that the claim was made that this hand 
grenade was thrown from the window of this establishment at a 
soldier or at an officer? 

A. It could not have happened. 

Q. But was that the claim made? 

A. Yes, that was the claim made. 

Q. But you are saying why the claim was invented? 

A. Yes; the claim was that they were justified in the reprisals 
because the hand grenade was thrown at them. How, nobody could 
figure out. 

Q. But this happened while you were there? 

A. Just the day before I came to Cork they were raiding the 
Cork Examiner s office. When Mr. Ryan, who owned the Black 
Thorn Shop, reported the theft of one hundred pounds' worth of 
his property to the general in charge of the troops, he was told 
that his application was not mannerly. The letter was pasted up in 
the shop window, and that was the gist of it all. 



From Cork I went to Queenstown. It was about the end of July 
or the first of August. I went to the boat regatta that they have 
there. In the evening the little boys, as part of the play of the 
day, had a donkey race. They raced down the street on donkeys. 
They had to go through a line of soldiers with loaded guns and 
fixed bayonets. I saw that from the window of the Rob Roy Hotel. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did you learn that that was a nightly occur- 
rence for these soldiers with fixed bayonets to be on the main 

A. ' They are always on the main thoroughfares whenever they 
can accommodate them. For instance, in Limerick they were having 
a mass in one of the churches at — 

Q. Did you see that? 

A. Yes, I saw it. 

Senator Walsh: We only want what you saw personally. 

The Witness: I was on the outside. The crowd came out of the 
church onto the street. While they were saying mass the soldiers 
came and stacked arms and fixed bayonets and made sounds to 
indicate to people that they were there. And then they picked up 
their arms and passed on. It was really an interruption of a re- 
ligious service. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is there anything else in Queenstown besides 
the instance you refer to? 

A. Nothing, except that when they were having their little dance 
— some little girls had a step dance on the platform after the boat 
race; — the soldiers were massed on the platform right near with their 
loaded guns and fixed bayonets. 


In Limerick five times in succession they raided at two o'clock 
in the morning the house of a lady and her three daughters. The 
last time the Black-and-Tans came in there perfectly drunk. They 
did not know what they were doing. One of them took a bayonet 
and was ripping up an oak floor. 

Q. From whom did you get this information? 

A. From the parties themselves. 

Q. You visited the house? 

A. Yes, I visited the house. 

Q. How soon after these raids had been made? 

A. About a week following. 


Q. What was the pretended purpose of these raids? 

A. The pretended purpose was to search for arms or for persons 
carrying arms or for those who were on the run — that is, those who, 
if they were caught, would be put in jail, and so they sleep away 
from their homes. 

The curfew was put on in Limerick after two drunken soldiers 
had been relieved of their revolvers. A whole street called Kerry 
Row, a street where everybody was exceedingly poor, was raided in 
reprisal. I went into their houses and saw the results and sympa- 
thized with them. The windows were all broken and everything 
smashed. The butts of guns and bullets did not have far to go in 
order to destroy everything those poor people had. 

Q. What was the occasion of this destruction? 

A. The taking of two revolvers from drunken soldiers. 

Q. This followed that act? 

A. This followed that act. I mention it to show that there is no 
comparison between the occurrence of the act and its punishment. 
This whole street had nothing to do with the couple of boys who 
took away their revolvers. Besides the houses which were fired 
there, a beautiful window set in a tower opposite the Dominican 
Church was destroyed. 

Q. By what was it struck? 

A. By the military. 

Q. By what weapon? 

A. I would suppose by hand grenades. 

In Galway I saw what was to be seen. I was in the railroad 
station after returning from the Islands of Aran. The boat was 
very late. It was nearly twelve o'clock. Suddenly we heard a sharp 
report. I was with Father Kelley, of Spiddle, a place near Galway. 
I said to him, "These are shots." Three to five shots were then 
heard. Then a pause and six or eight more shots. Then very 
quickly a Black-and-Tan went out on the platform that leads to 
the back door of the railway hotel, and when the people were 
coming to get the papers off the train at midnight, he used his 
revolver in any way, shooting in any direction. He shot a young 
fellow named Mulvoy. I saw him the next day. He was shot 
directly through the temple. 

Q. Where was this young boy? 

A. On the platform getting the papers with the rest. They had 
brought up the papers giving the news of Mayor MacSwiney's con- 

Q. The train comes in at midnight and they were trying to buy 


A. Yes. . 

Q. Did you see him the next day? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you talk with him? 

A. No, he was dead. 

Senator Walsh: I beg your pardon. I thought he was only 

The Witness: A civilian jumped on the back of the Black-and- 
Tan and tried to get the revolver out of his hand. He tried to twist 
his hand so as to shoot the man on his back. While he was trying 
to do that he wounded a couple of bystanders. 

Q. That is, after the soldier had shot Mulvoy? 

A. Yes, someone jumped on the back of the Black-and-Tan, and 
while he was trying to twist the revolver from him, he wounded two 

Q. So far as you know, Mulvoy was an innocent bystander. He 
was not connected with politics? He had not been too patriotic in 
any way? 

A. I do not know. So far as I know, no. There virtue is re- 
garded as a vice. I would say, Senator, in reply to your question, 
that all young men are patriotic. 

Q. So that no matter in what direction they shoot, they are apt 
to shoot a patriot? 

A. Yes, sir. After he had wounded a couple of men, a civilian 
shot him. An English officer on the platform said it was the only 
thing to do with the scoundrel. In every civilized land under the 
sun, an action like that would be considered the right thing to do. 
But it begot reprisals. These reprisals had no connection with the 
deed and were entirely out of proportion to it, even as punishment, 
and utterly unmerited, because it was a virtuous act to kill the 

Q. Now, what were the reprisals? 

A. The reprisals were about two hours afterward — about two 
o'clock — 

Q. I understand that you were present and saw this shooting? 

A. Yes, sir. Two hours afterwards. Lights were put out at 
once, because they thought they would come, and so half-way pre- 
pared for their coming. With the lights out in my room, I peeped 
out under the blinds and saw what appeared to be about two hun- 
dred fifty soldiers or police halted at the front door of the hotel. 
Immediately after the order "Halt!" came the word "Fire!" So 
they shot there for several hours through the street, terrifying 


everyone. I left my bed and lay under the window — it was a stone 
building — to escape a possible bullet. 

Q. How long did you stay in that position? 

A. About an hour and a half. 

Q. I suppose you thought that was the safest place from a stray 
bullet through the window? 

A. That is the place that is generally advised in Ireland — under 
the window. 

Next day I learned that after shooting up the street, they went to 
a Mr. Broderick's house, locked an old woman of sixty-five or 
seventy years of age — no, not locked, but shut her into a little room 
in her own house, poured petrol into the parlor and everything 
near, and set fire to her house. I went to see the ruin the next day. 

Q. What happened to that fire? Did they burn the house down? 

A. They did not burn the house down, because some neighbors 
dared to come out of their houses and extinguish the flames. But 
the piano was burned, and a trunk that belonged to a woman who 
had just come from America, who has been fifty years here, and it 
burned her trunk. From Broderick's they went to a house where a 
man named Quirk was lodging. They took him out of bed, did not 
give him any time to dress, tied him to a lamp post, and shot him 
nine times below the belt, literally disemboweling him. An inquest 
was forbidden to be held. I have forgotten to say that they de- 
stroyed the Galway Express office, smashed all the type, and de- 
stroyed the linotype. 

Q. That was a newspaper office? 

A. Yes, a newspaper office. 

Q. Did that newspaper have Republican sympathies? 

A. Republican sympathies? Yes, sir. 

Q. This all happened in one night after that railroad station 
affair in the town of Galway? 

A. Yes, sir. I went the next morning to the Galway Express 
office. The owner of the paper was picking up pieces of broken 
type off the floor. They gathered together enough to print a paper 
on a sheet about the size of that (indicating a sheet of business 
letter size), and in big block letters on the top of the sheet was 
"Keep Cool," which is really the philosophy of the passiveness that 
Ireland is practicing right now. Mr. O'Day, a solicitor of Galway. 
for the sake of the good name of the community, inaugurated an 
informal inquiry into the happenings, and his house was bombed — 
or, rather, his office was bombed— the following night. And so it 
goes, and the story is kept from the rest of the world. 



Q. Do you know the political sympathies of this last party? 

A. Yes. 

Q. What were they? 

A. Like the sympathies of everyone I met in Ireland, Protestant 
and Catholic — Republican. 

Q. Republican? 

A. Republican. It is the only government. 

Q. The only civil government? 

A. Yes, civil government. 

Q. That is, you found no vestige of British civil authority in 
Ireland at all? 

A. Absolutely none, except this meaningless madness that is the 
work of government. 

Q. Chairman Howe: You say you met no one in Ireland that is 
not in sympathy with the Republican form of government? 

A. None at all. 

Q. That is literally true? 

A. Literally true. 

Q. You mean to say that you never met anyone at all who is not 
sympathetic with the Republican form of government? 

A. No, absolutely none at all. 

Q. You mean to say that you could not find them? 

A. Yes, I could not find them. 


I asked them about their courts. They said that one court gave a 
regular Solomon's judgment. Two sons were disputing about a 
legacy. The judgment of the court was that the eldest should divide 
the property and the younger take his choice. It was very simple, 
but it was right. 


I was in Dublin when Mr. Jack Lynch was killed in the Exchange 

Q. Do you know the circumstances of that? 

A. Yes, sir. I was not there to see it, but I know from every 

Q. You investigated it? 

A. Yes. Six to eight police — I do not know the exact number, 
but it is immaterial — or rather six soldiers came to the door of 


the hotel at two o'clock in the morning, asked to see the register, 
looked for a name, and went to room number six. They left. 
Nobody heard any sound. And some half hour or so afterwards 
two policemen came and knocked at the hotel and said to the night 
clerk: '"We are going to guard room number six, where a man lies 
dying. The military told us to come there." All the next day they 
stood guard at that room, and did not even admit the proprietor 
of the hotel into that room. They supposed the man was dying. 
He was shot in the throat. Nobody heard the shot, because they 
blanketed the revolver. The military held the inquest. The coroner 
w r as first notified not to perform the functions of his office. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Do you know what was the pretended reason 
for attacking Lynch? 

A. He was an officer in the movement. 

Q. He was an officer of the Irish Republican movement? 

A. \es, he was an officer. 

Q. Had he committed any outlaw act that you know? 


A. None whatever. The purpose of the Volunteer is to incul- 
cate three virtues in a very practical way: the first, truth; the 
second, sobriety; and the third, patriotism. There is no officer in 
the Volunteer army that touches drink. 

Q. And I suppose that they appreciate that the whole success of 
their movement, if it can be called successful, is to proceed orderly 
and without the commission of murder? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. In other words, there is the highest form of passive resistance 
that has been ever attempted in the world? 

A. Yes, sir. 

To that same barracks from which the police came to take 
charge of that room where the man was dying, as it was supposed, 
I w r ent to report to the police, as I was ordered to do on leaving 
the ship at Liverpool. The man who was at the desk had evidently 
been imbibing. The lines of the face indicated it. He said to me, 
"I will give you ten days to get to Darlington. If you do not get 
there in ten days, report to the police, for they will be looking for 
you." I was going there to see a relative. 

Q. He knew you were going there? 

A. Yes, I told him I was going to that place. 


In Tuam there was a magnificent draper's place, the finest shop 
in Tuam, a splendid cut-stone building valued at forty thousand 
pounds; the contents, with the building itself, was destroyed by the 
police. The wife of the proprietor — 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did you see it? 

A. This is what I did not see, but got from others who did see it. 

Q. How soon after the occurrence happened? 

A. About two or three weeks. 

Q. This establishment was destroyed? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Who was the owner of it? 

A. I cannot remember the name — something like Carey. It was 
the principal building in town. 

Q. Did you see it? 

A. Yes, I saw it. 

Q. And when you arrived there a few weeks later you investi- 

A. Yes, sir. I heard about it, and then when I got there, went 
and saw it and investigated. 

At Tuam the wife of the proprietor escaped from the burning 
building with her child in her arms, when she was covered by a 
loaded gun in the hands of a policeman and told to get back there. 
She escaped over a high wall in the rear to a neighboring premises. 
As a result of her awful experience, she is insane. 

Q. Where is she stationed — in what institution? 

A. I do not know. 

Q. You did not see her? This is what the neighbors told you? 

A. This is what the neighbors told. But I generally ask people 
who are intelligent to get the straight of it. 

Q. Did you learn what had been done to incur such a thing? 

A. Absolutely nothing. There were two policemen shot a day 
or two before. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Up to the date of the burning of this 
man's home, nothing had happened to call forth a reprisal that 
was known to the general public? 

A. Nothing at all. 

Q. Was this man obviously connected with the Republican 
government or movement in Ireland? 

A. I do not know. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Will your testimony take much longer? 

A. Very short, sir. 


In that same town a Mr. Casey, who identified himself very 
prominently in the Republican movement, told me that in a raid 
on his house his wife was made to walk barefoot over the back 
yard that was full of glass. They extracted fourteen pieces of 
glass from her feet. She was confined the week afterwards and 
bore her first son. 

Mrs. Annan Bryce, the lady whose name I have already given, 
held a country dance in her garage, and the next night her garage 
was burned down. 

Q. Is this the sister-in-law of Ambassador James Bryce? 

A. A sister-in-law. 

Q. Did she tell you this herself? 

A. Yes, she told me this herself, and wrote a letter giving the 
details to the papers of Glengariff. 

Q. Have you a copy of that letter? 

A. I am not sure. But I can send it to you, whether I have 
it or not. I saw it upon arriving in Glengariff. 

Arthur Griffith, the vice-president of the Republic, told me that 
England was planning a massacre. Before I left Ireland I found 
that his words were true. I found that G. K. Chesterton, the lead- 
ing scholar in London, in his magazine, The New Witness, exposes 
the plot entered into by the House of Commons after their last 
adjournment prior to the present session. Ireland has been gen- 
erally devastated. Her railroads have been stopped by Sir Eric 
Geddes, the brother to the Ambassador here. The way they stop 
them is to send soldiers with loaded guns to the train; and then 
the train does not start. The engineers will not start them when 
they are used for military purposes. The creameries, you have 
heard about them being destroyed. It is a plot to destroy the 
economic life of the people. 

There is no use going over about the boy being shot going to 
bring his mother to church, and about the Midletown boys who 
were taken to the Cork jail and were strapped back to back. The 
officer in charge took it into his head to see if one bullet would 
kill the two men, and shot them, the bullet going through the 
back of one and through the shoulder of the other. 1 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did you investigate this yourself? 

A. No; I heard of it from responsible people. 

Senator Walsh: I think we should rather have things that, as a 
newspaper man. you have investigated for personal reasons rather 

The Buckley case. See affidavit of Bartholomew Bucklev and index. 


than general comment about what had happened here and there. 

The Witness: In England I found that the English were as much 
deceived about conditions as the Americans. I found that the 
government dare not tell the people, noble and humane, dare not 
tell them the truth about Ireland. 

I would like to ask the Commission to read a little extract from 
the inscription by the author of a work written forty years ago, 
by the sister of Admiral Fitzgerald, of the English navy. 

Senator Walsh: I am afraid we would be getting into a great 
deal of matter that would be interesting and historic, and yet 
would not pertain to the immediate inquiry here. I think we had 
better confine ourselves to just what is going on in Ireland today, 
what acts of lawlessness are taking place and how much destruc- 
tion of life and property and loss of blood there is, and how 
much and to what extent humane treatment has been abolished or 
done away with. 


The Witness: I will state just one more thing. I wanted to 
know something about the hundred cowardly murders of police. 
They have no such word as police is with us. They use a different 
dictionary. I wanted to know about the cowardly murders. I 
had heard about these cowardly murders through the speeches of 
Lloyd George. The cowardly murder takes place in this way: 
The people in certain parts of the country become infuriated. 
They have no weapons of their own. They attack a police bar- 
racks-, almost with their bare knuckles. That barracks is fortified 
and well protected to keep anything like violent hands off. In 
that attack on the barracks the policemen are killed. So too are 
the civilians killed. And they attack armed lorries that have their 
guns at the ready, and there they are killed. But instead of being 
a cowardly act, the civilians that attack these barracks and these 
lorries have no arms at all with which to meet their purpose. 

Then, too, the police are spies. When a camp of military comes 
to town, they point out to this military marked men, and these 
men's houses are raided or they are shot. And they are treated as 
spies. The people conceive of a state of war as existing, which 
leads them to regard the policemen as spies and give them the 
fate of spies. 

That is about all. 



Q. Senator Walsh : Doctor, you were summoned by this Com- 
mission and invited to come here and testify? 

A. I was summoned by Mr. MacDonald. 

Senator Walsh: I want to have it in the record that you are here 
on the invitation of this Commission and nobody else. 

Chairman Howe: Are there any other questions? 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: The inhabitants of Ireland are not 
allowed to have in their possessions any firearms? 

A. They will get two years for having in their possession 
firearms. 1 

Q. How about finding firearms in their homes? 

A. It is the same. 

The Witness: Thank you, gentlemen, for your courtesy. 

Chairman Howe: The hearings of the Commission will adjourn 
until ten o'clock tomorrow morning. 
Adjourned 5:20 p. m. 

1 Under the recent proclamation of martial law in Ireland, the death 
penalty may be inflicted for possession of arms or ammunition. 


Session Two 

Before the Commission, sitting in the Hotel La Fayette, Wash- 
ington, D. C, Friday, November 19, 1920. 
10:15 a. m. 


Chairman Howe: The Commission will please come to order. 
The hearings will begin by the testimony of Mr. John Derham, of 
Balbriggan, Ireland. Mr. Derham. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: Mr. Derham has asked me to act as his counsel 
in bringing out his testimony. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: What is your name, please? 

A. John Derham. 

Q. Where do you reside? 

A. Balbriggan, County Dublin, Province Leinster. 

Q. How far is Balbriggan situated from the city of Dublin? 

A. Twenty miles north. 

Q. What communication is there between Balbriggan and the 
city of Dublin? 

A. The Northern Railroad and a main road between Belfast 
and Dublin. 


Q. I wish you would describe to the Commission the sort of 

town Balbriggan is, industrial or agricultural? 

A. Industrial. 

Q. What are the industries? 

A. Hosiery, Balbriggan hosiery. 

Q. There are two main factories there? 

A. Two, yes. 

Q. What is the size of them? 

A. The largest factory employs about three hundred or two 
hundred and fifty in the factory. 

Q. The smaller one? 

A. The smaller one, one hundred twenty. 

Q. One was burned, I believe? 

A. That was the smaller one. 



Q. That had one hundred twenty employees? 

A. In the factory. 

Q. Were there others in the town that worked for the factory, 
and in what way was that done? 

Q. Chairman Howe: What is his official position? 

A. Town commissioner. 

Q. Senator Walsh: When were you elected? 

A. The fifteenth of January. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: I believe you also have a son? 

A. Yes, he is the chairman of it. 

Q. He is here? 

A. No, he is in jail. 

Q. He was in jail at the time you came? 

A. Yes, he is in jail at Mountjoy prison. 

Q. Senator Walsh: For what offence? 

A. For riding a bicycle at night. Nothing found on him. No 
charge. He had to go on hunger strike for three weeks to get the 


Q. Tell us a little more about the election on the fifteenth. 
What parties were candidates? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: Just describe that. The election was of what 

A. The fifteenth of January. 

Q. How many parties had candidates? 

A. Republican, Nationalists or Redmondites, and two Unionists 
and one representing the Soldiers" and Sailors' Federation. 

Q. Any Labor Party running? 

A. Two Labor. 

Q. What was the result of the election? 

A. The result of the election was that Labor and the Republi- 
cans, who are the same, five; two Unionists, two Nationalists, and 
the Soldiers and Sailors, none. 

Q. Your town commission consists of how many members? 

A. Nine. 

Q. Did you perfect your election before your son was arrested? 

A. Oh, yes, he was not arrested until June. 

Q. What was your son's name? 

A. James. 

Q. Was it a full and free election, participated in by the men 
and women of Balbrigaan? 



Yes, all the people of the town. 

Q. Was there any disturbance? 

A. Not the slightest. There was a very full vote. 

Q. How many votes were cast? 

A. I do not know. 

Q. How many members of the council were elected? 

A. Nine. 

Q. How many of the members elected were sympathizers with 
the Republican movement? 

A. Five Republicans. 

Q. Were any other of the men sympathizers? 

A. The other four were not. 

Q. Which party received the highest vote? 

A. The Nationalists. 

Q. Which party came in as members of the council through 
minority representation? That is, there was some one party which 
got the highest vote, and the others — the minority representation 
was given to the others. 

A. The highest vote was got by the Nationalists. The next was 
got by a Labor and one of the Unionists. 

Q. And the Republicans last? 

A. No, my son came next, the Republican. Then one, a Labor 
man, and another Republican after him. 

Q. As the council was finally made up, the sympathizers with 
the Republican movement were five out of nine; but, as a matter of 
fact, the highest vote was given to other than Republican candidates? 

A. Yes, you can explain that by the Unionist and Nationalist 
members. The Nationalist member was a very old member there, 
for nine or ten years. 

Q. Then there was not so much of an issue as to sympathies 
with the Irish Republic as with local conditions? 

A. The Unionists had a great deal to do with that, because the 
Unionist candidates were members of the large factory. 

Q. Was it a victory for the Republicans, then? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Your town was a Nationalist stronghold? 

A. A Nationalist stronghold. But it had not been tested for 
three years. 

Q. You say that factory that was burned gave employment to 
one hundred and twenty, and gave out work to others to do at home. 
How many? 


A. Between three and four hundred. 

Q. How many did the largest factory have that did their work 
at home? 

A. Between five and six hundred. 

Q. The backbone of the town was the hosiery industry? 

A. Yes, it extended to Skerries and Rush. 

Q. It went to villages around in the neighborhood? 

A. Certainly. There were not people enough in our town to 
do it. 

Q. Was there any work done in Dublin? 

A. Yes, the big factory had some work done in Dublin. 

Q. Was there any other industry? 

A. Yes, linen. 

Q. What was the size of that? 

A. Fortv or fifty working on linen ticking, tablecloths, sheets, 
and the like. 

Q. Has Balbriggan any other resources? Is it anything of a 
mountain town? 

A. No. There is the sea on one side. We are not far from 
Drogheda. Then there is the national fishing fleet motor boats in 

Q. You are the proprietor of a licensed public house? 

A. Yes, for about thirty years. 

Q. How long have you lived in Balbriggan? 

A. For about thirty years. 

Q. You are a married man? 

A. Yes. 

Q. How many in the family? 

A. Eight. 

Q. Can you give their names? 

A. Yes. Mary, James, Elizabeth, Michael, Kathleen, John, 
Morris, and Louis. 

Q. Did these children all live at home with you? 

A. Yes. 


Q. What sort of a barracks, if any, is there in Balbriggan? 

A. A large house, an old house. 

Q. Was there a police barracks in Balbriggan prior to this time? 

A. Always in Balbriggan. 

Q. How large a one was it? 


A. The house was fairly large. 

Q. How many members of the Royal Irish Constabulary ordi- 
narily were there? 

A. Ten to thirteen. 

Q. After the war was there any military establishment close to 

A. During the latter end of the war there was an aerodrome 
built for flying at Gormanstown, three miles further north, a very 
large one. 

Q. Subsequently what has that been used for? 

A. Turned into a training quarters for Black-and-Tans. There 
is supposed to be fifteen to twenty hundred of them. We cannot 
tell. They come by rail and motor lorries. 

Q. When did they begin to use the aerodrome for that purpose? 

A. I should say about July when they came first. 

Q. The population of Balbriggan is? 

A. Twenty-five hundred. 


Q. How did you find the population was as to Catholics and 

A. Oh, the population is Catholic. We have, I suppose, sixty 
or seventy Protestants. 

Q. Are there two churches there? 

A. There are, the Protestant and the Catholic Church. 

Q. Who is the pastor of the Protestant Church? 

A. The Reverend William Jamison. 

Q. How long has he been there? 

A. I should say about a year. 

Q. Has there been harmony or not between the Catholics and 
Protestants in Balbriggan? # 

A. Harmony. 

Q. Has there been any differences there between them, caused 
by any differences in belief on the part of the inhabitants? 

A. Not the slightest. 

Q. Do they cooperate and help each other? 

A. Yes, they always cooperate. If there is anything for the 
Chapel, they all help. 

Q. How is that? 

A. The Catholics are in the best economic position to do so, and 
they extend help cheerfully. 



Q. Upon what night was there violence in Balbriggan? 

A. The twentieth of September. 

Q. Was there a Blaek-and-Tan killed in Balbriggan? 

A. One killed and another wounded. 

Q. Were you present at the time? 

A. I was not present at the time of the shooting. 

Q. I wish you would proceed and give the details of what oc- 
curred at your own home and at the Smith public house. There is 
a public house there kept by a woman named Mrs. Smith? 

A. Yes, Mrs. Smith has a house known as the New Bar. 

Q. Please state to the Commission what you learned the follow- 
ing morning about what occurred in that place. 

A. No, that night. On the night of the twentieth of September 
I was in my own bar. My son, John, came in about half nine and 
told me there was a row in the New Bar with the Black-and-Tans, 
and that two of them were shot. 

Q. Did you get any other details at that time? 

A. Nothing further at that time. 

Q. Please tell what you finally learned about this occurrence? 

A. About how it did take place? 

Q. Yes, how it took place. 

A. District Inspector Burke of the Royal Irish Constabulary 
came down to see his brother, a sergeant in the R. I. C. in Bal- 

Q. Where did Burke live? 

A. In the barracks at Balbriggan. 

Q. That is, the sergeant? 

A. Yes, the sergeant did. The brother came from Dublin. 

Q. What had he been before? 

A. An inspector. 

Q. He had been promoted? 

A. Yes, on that day or the day previous. He came down to cele- 
brate it with a few friends, There were two motor cars or taxis 
came down from Dublin. 

Q. Who were in the taxis? 

A. Black-and-Tans. They stopped at Smith's and were taking 
some drink there. The bar maid refused to give them more, and 
they went behind the bar to take it. She then sent for the R. I. C. 
They came up, looked in at the door, and left when they saw who 
was inside. 


Q. Who was inside? 

A. The Black-and-Tans. 

Q. At that time, according to your information received there the 
next morning, was there anyone in there except the Black-and-Tans? 

A. Not that I heard. 

Q. There had been civilians in there, but they had left? 

A. They left when this excitement began about taking the drink. 
The police look.ed in and left. It was not a hundred yards from 
there where the shooting took place. 

Q. The Black-and-Tans came out? 

A. Yes, through the Smith door of the street. 

Q. What became of the taxicabs? 

A. One taxicab immediately left for Dublin. 

Q. Did you hear of any other details? 

A. That was practically all. 

Q. Was there ever any military investigation? 

A. No, no other than the military inquest made further about it. 

Q. I wish you would begin now, Mr. Derham, with your own 
experiences, what you heard and saw. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did you know who. shot these Black-and- 

A. No, there was just a bit of a row there. They had been 
drinking and were a bit excited. 

Q. Was there a row between themselves, or with citizens of Bal- 
briggan? Or did citizens waylay them and shoot them outside? 

A. No, the shooting took place from the inside at some of the 
Black-and-Tans already gone out. 

Q. Who shot them? 

A, Nobody knows. 

Q. The bar maid was inside? 

A. She was inside. 

Q. Has not somebody made an inquiry of her? 

A. She says she knows nothing about it. She was very excited 
about these people coming behind the bar. 

Q. Did any civilians get inside and threaten them with revolvers? 

A. Not that is known. 

Q. It could have happened by a skirmish among themselves? 

A. It could. 

Q. Or it could have happened by some citizens of the town 
shooting these Black-and-Tans? 

A. It could. 


Q. Or it could have happened from inside as these men were 

joing out? 

A. It could. 

Q. Who were killed? 

A. These two brothers. 

Q. Was there any inquiry? 

A. There was. 

Q. Who conducted it? 

A. The military. 

Q. What was the verdict? 

A. Shot by persons unknown. 

Q. Was there any investigation by civil authorities? 

A. Oh, no. That has been done away with. 

Q. How long has that been done away with? 

A. Four or five months. 

Q. In what condition were these Black-and-Tans? 

A. They were supposed to have had too much liquor. 

Q. Does the bar maid claim they were drunk? 

A. She claims they had too much. 

Q. How many of them were in there? 

A. Eight or nine of them. 

Q. That is the whole story about that episode? 

A. That is all as far as that is concerned. 

Q. The bar maid did not know them? 

A. No. She was not long there in the employ of that place. 

Q. Do any of those Black-and-Tans claim that civilians shot 



A. They do. 

Q. They all claim that, 1 suppose? 

A. They do. 

Q. Do they say where these civilians came from? 

A. There is a back door. 

Q. Who runs this place? 

A. Mrs. Smith. 

Q. Has she any sons? 

A. No, only daughters. The men folks are dead. 

Q. Then there are no men working or living on the premises? 

A. No. Only women. 

Q. Has she any assistants? 

A. A couple of bar maids. 

Q. After the police officers looked into the front door, did thev 


A. Yes, they went away. There was no disturbance. 

Q. Does the bar maid claim that these men took liquor from 
behind the counter? 

A. Yes, they did take it. 

Q. What were they drinking? 

A. Bass, I suppose — the usual drink over there. 

Q. But about the Black-and-Tans' claim that some civilians shot 
at them from behind the door? 

A. Yes, that is the excuse. 

Q. You do not care to state from your inquiries as to what ex- 
tent these Black-and-Tans were under the influence of liquor? 

A. They had too much taken. I could not find out just how 

Q. There was a celebration going on there on account of the 
elevation of this inspector? 

A. Yes, certainly. 

Q. Were any of these Black-and-Tans from Dublin? 

A. Yes, they were all from Dublin except the brother. 

Q. They got the brother who was a sergeant? 

A. They got the brother of the inspector, who was a sergeant, 
from the barracks, and went up to the house for refreshments. 

Q. How long were they in there? 

A. About an hour. 

Q. Had they taken drink before they came in there? 

A. I do not think so. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: What was the circumstance of the other 

A. Immediately after the shooting one of them disappeared. 

Q. Did any Black-and-Tans get into the taxicab? 

A. I could not find out about that. It is supposed they did. 

Q. What became of the wounded men? 

A. He that died was taken out, and the wounded man was 
brought to the police barracks. 

Q. You may proceed and recount the instances that occurred 
after that. 

A. My own? 

Q. Yes, your own. 

A. I need not tell about what my son said. 

Q. Mr. Walsh: No, you told about that. Did anything else 
take place in your own bar? 

A. No, I immediately ordered the porter to put up the shutters. 
I asked the men on the premises to leave, that I was going to shut 


the shop. So they drank up and left. I had the shop shut at quar- 
ter to ten or twenty minutes of. I then went inside to the sitting 
room with my family. We remained there until half after ten. 
Then my son, Mike, came in. 

Q. How old is Mike? 

A. Just twenty. At half past ten he came in and went to bed. 

Q. I think it might be well to describe the location of the rooms 
in your house. How many rooms and where is the bar there located 
with reference to the living part of the house? 

A. The bar, of course, is on the ground floor. The bar is on 
Clanard Street on the Square. 

Q. How large a room is the bar room? 

A. About thirty-six feet in length and about fifteen across. 

Q. Describe your house there. 

A. At the back of the bar is the two sitting rooms, and the 
kitchen at the back. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Are those for private use? 

A. One of them is for the family, for private use, and the other 
is for the bar. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: That is all that is on the first floor? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Now describe the upstairs. 

A. There are seven rooms upstairs, six bedrooms and another 

Q. Of what material is your house built? 

A. Of stone. 

Q. Two stories? 

A. Yes, two stories. 


Q. You were saying that Mike came in and went to bed? 

A. Yes. And the rest of the family and my wife went to bed at 
eleven. I retired about quarter past eleven. When I got into my 
bedroom I saw and heard the motor lorries, four of them, come in 
full of Black-and-Tans. I remained then to see what they were 
going to do. 

Q. You could look out on the street from your bedroom window? 

A. Yes, the barracks is about fifty yards from my place, and I 
knew that they were going to stop there. After they stopped I saw 
from ten to twelve Black-and-Tans proceed down Drogheda Street. 
I waited then to see what was going to happen with these Black-and- 


Tans for some ten minutes or so. It might have been half past 
eleven. The first I heard was glass breaking up the street. I told 
my wife, "There is going to be a raid on," because I heard the 
glass. Then I heard some shouting and more glass. I went inside 
and called the daughters and told them to go into the back room, 
not to light any lights, and bring their clothes with them. I then 
went back into the boys' room and called my three sons and told 
them to get up and dress and use no light. My wife did the same. 
They remained in the back room in the dark, for I thought there 
would be shooting. You could hear them screeching and roaring, 
and their voices got worse, and I heard some shots. 

Q. Senator Walsh: The voices of the people in the village? 

A. No, the Black-and-Tans. 

Q. What were they saying? 


A. We could not tell you that. They were yelling down the 
street. What, I could not tell. I remained in the room for three 
minutes or so. We heard the yells coming closer to our place. They 
started in breaking in the shutters and windows. 

Q. What, your house? 

A. Yes. The yelling was something fearful. It took them three 
or four minutes to break into the front. Then they started breaking 
up the shop and the two rooms below stairs. Then the excitement 
was so bad in the room that I got a candle. 

Q. The excitement among your own family? 

A. Yes, my wife and one of the daughters. I heard them com- 
ing upstairs then and break open the parlor door. Immediately I 
heard, "Hands up or I will shoot." So I put my head out through 
the door and said, "Come this way, for I have nothing." 

Q. Senator Walsh: As a matter of fact, were there any fire- 
arms or weapons in your house? 

A. Not a thing. Not a thing. He then said, "Come out or I 
will shoot," so I looked out, and he put the rifle up to his shoulder. 
I ducked back and told him to come this way, for I have nothing. 

Q. In what position did he put the rifle? 

A. Like this (indicating raised position ready to fire). 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: To your body? 

A. Like this (again indicating position ready to fire). I said, 
"Come this way for I have nothing." Then ten or twelve of them 
advanced up to the front room. I said, "Spare the children." And 


he said, "This is the man. Take him." And my wife said, "Where 
he goes, I go," and she caught me. Then I was taken around to 
look at the family, and I got a blow in the jaw from a man's fist — 
I did not see the man — and pushed down the passageway. They 
stopped there for about a minute, perhaps, until more Black-and- 
Tans came up the stairs. I was then taken downstairs. There was 
none of our family fully dressed. The wife had no stockings on; 
the children had no hats or boots — shoes; I had no hat myself or 
shoes. I was taken downstairs and was going through the hall door 
when the policeman turned to me and said: "No, you are going out 
the way we came in," and he brought me out through the shop. 
When going that way I saw that the two rooms were packed with 
Black-and-Tans breaking in there. 


Q. About how many would you say there were down there? 

A. There were at least seventy on the premises before I got 
through. Seventy at least. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Were they drinking any of your 

A. I do not think so. But they took a bird I had there, a finch, 
took it out of the cage and on. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What was the condition of your bar room 
when you got downstairs? 

A. Everything was completely smashed. The glass was about 
a foot high back of the bar. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Did they destroy any of your 

A. They did. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did they destroy all of your stock? 

A. There was much left. 

Q. Did they destroy the shop? 

A. Yes, counter and shades and so forth were smashed. 

Q. Did they take anything? 

A. They did not take what they could have. Some dozen or so 
of Three Star brandy they left, and some other liquors. 


Q. Senator Walsh: I suppose you did not have time to investi- 

A. No, sir. I was taken to the shop door. Immediately I got 


to the shop door I was caught by the neck and pulled into the path. 
I then got the blow of a rifle in the side of the head. I was taken 
across the street and struck four times and asked, "Where is your 
bloody son?" A voice said, "Take him to the Green." 

Q. What is the Green? 

A. The Fair Green. I thought he meant to take me there for 
shooting purposes. That is what I thought at that time. Going 
across the street I was stopped then and searched by a Black-and- 
Tan. He did not take anything from me. He made me put my 
hands over my head, high up, for about a minute. He then said, 
"Sit down." I was going over to a door step to sit down. He said, 
"Come back here and sit down on the curb, you dog." I sat down 
on the curb stone and there were seven rifles pointed at me. I re- 
mained there for about five minutes more. A man then asked me 
my name, and I told him. I then shifted my position a minute, and 
he said, "Sit down there, you dog." 

Q. Senator Walsh: All of this time there were seven rifles 
pointed at you? 

A. Yes, all that time there was seven rifles pointed at me. 

I was being led to the barracks when a big man pointed a re- 
volver at my ear and said, "I will blow your bloody brains out." 

Q. Did he put it to your ear? 

A. Yes, right at the side of my ear. 

Q. All this time did you make any protest? 

A. No ; I never spoke. 

Q. Never spoke? 

A. Never spoke. He told me to get in on the path. I was on 
the road. And immediately I was struck on the shoulder and tum- 
bled down with the butt of a rifle. I got to the barracks then. It 
was about thirty yards away where all this was happening. He 
said, "Put this man in the day room." The man guarding the door 
said, "He cannot go in there. There is a man dying in there." I 
was told to stop on the porch of the barracks and remained there 
for about five minutes or eight or something like that. The man 
then said, "Take this man to the hotel." So I was brought to the 
hotel. Lawless — the second son of Mr. Lawless — was there with a 
child three years old with bronchitis; and another little child about 

Q. Were these Lawless children driven out of their home? 
A. Yes, they were driven out with their father. He was in his 
bare feet, and the children were in their night clothes. 


Q. What sort of weather was it? 

A. The weather was very cold. It was frosty, too. The grass 
was wet. There was no rain, though. 

I got into the hotel. When I got there, I got the remainder of 
my family with me, with the exception of Mike. I stopped there 
until half past six in the morning. 


Q. Senator Walsh: During the night what could you see from 
the hotel as to what was going on? 

A. I could see the glare of the fires. I could see that two houses 
were gone altogether. 

Q. Could you see your own house from there? 

A. I could. Then there was yelling and burning and shooting 
all the night. 

Q. At any time during the night did you ascertain that anyone 
had been killed? 

A. Not until half past six in the morning. The Black-and-Tans 
were stopping and yelling outside the hotel all the time. There was 
nearly a collapse in my family whenever they stopped. 


Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh : You might detail at this time what you saw 
and heard about Mr. Lawless and Mr. Gibbons. 

A. About half past six I came out of the hotel. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was the hotel turned into police banacks? 

A. I thought so all night, but I came out at half past six. 

Q. How did you happen to come out at half past six? 

A. There was no police with me. I saw civilians walking around 
outside. I got down to the barracks and was told that Lawless and 
Gibbons were shot, and were down in the lane about six yards off 
the road. I saw the black objects of their bodies, but did not feel 
able to go down and look at it myself. 

Q. Were there people around the bodies? 

A. Yes, they were around there looking at them. 

Q. What was your information about where they were killed 
and how the bodies got there? 

A. They were killed around the corner in Quay Street. 

Q. Where were the bodies lying? 

A. On the roadside, by two pools of blood. 


Q. What was your information about how the bodies got there? 

A. The neighbors carried them down to the gate in the lane, 
about five or six yards down. The neighbors found their bodies on 
the roadway and removed them from the sight of the public. 

Q. Who was Mr. Lawless? 

A. He was the local barber. 

Q. What was his name? 

A. James. 

Q. Who was Mr. Gibbons? 

A. He was a dairy proprietor, living with his mother. His 
name was John. 

Q. How old was Mr. Gibbons? 

A. About thirty-five. 

Q. Was he a married man? 

A. No, he lived with his mother and three sisters. 

Q. Was he a law-abiding man? 

A. Yes, indeed. 

Q. How old was Mr. Lawless? 

A. About forty. 

Q. Had he any family? 

A. Yes, seven children. 

Q. Had he a wife living? 

A. Yes, she is living. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Now, I wish you would detail the circum- 
stances as they were given to you the next morning about the death 
of these men. 

A. Lawless was first taken. His was the first house attacked. 
He was brought into the barracks at the time I was brought down. 

Q. Did you see him there? 

A. I did not. But his sons said they heard their father's voice 
inside. The local doctor was then in the day room. He was badly 
bruised and beaten about the head. 

Q. Where was Mr. Lawless's son? 

A. He was on the porch of the barracks, where I was. 

Q. Did he have anyone with him? 

A. He had his little sister about four years old. 

Q. The sick child? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Had he been brought there with his father? 

A. No, he came there after his father was taken. 

Q. He was in the hotel with you? 

A. Yes, he brought the child to the hotel. 


Q. You were telling about the death of Mr. Lawless. 

A. About half past one two Black-and-Tans came into the bar- 
racks and asked Lawless to tell them who shot Inspector Burke. 
He said he did not know, and the Black-and-Tans said, "Tell the 
truth or you will be shot at half two," looking at their wrist watches. 

Q. He looked at his wrist watch? 

A. Yes, and said right out, "You will be shot at half two." He 
was then taken outside the barracks, and there was some shots fired. 
It was presumed to be at Lawless, but not to hit him — to frighten 
him. And he was brought in again. Gibbons, John Gibbons, was 
brought into the barracks just as Lawless went back to the barracks, 
and after half an hour or so there, they came in, the same two 
Black-and-Tans, and asked Gibbons to tell who shot Burke. He 
said he did not know. They said, "You will have to tell the truth." 
He said, "I am telling the truth." They asked him to tell what he 
had to do with the Sinn Fein Volunteers. He said he was secretary 
for the local Volunteers. The two of them were then brought out, 
one after the other, again, and were asked the same questions, and 
the same procedure went on. That is, there were shots fired, and 
they were brought in again to the barracks. They remained there 
until about quarter to five in the morning, when they were taken 
out and brought around to Quay Street, about ten yards from the 
barracks, and were bayoneted to death. 

Q. Senator Walsh: They were stabbed to death with bayonets? 

A. Yes, with bayonets. 

Q. No shots were fired into them at any time? 

A. No, not according to the doctor's report. 

Q. How many times were the bodies pierced? 

A. There were three in Gibbons's neck and several across the 
body. The other man had bayonet wounds nine inches long in each 
of his thighs. 


Q. Did you find all of your family in the hotel, Mr. Derham? 

A. No. After passing where Lawless and Gibbons was, I went 
further. I saw nothing was standing there. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Your own home? 

A. Yes, sir. The walls were all tumbled down. Not the mak- 
ings of a match was left. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Burned all your property? 


A. The whole lot. 

Q. Clothing? 

A. Yes; we were not dressed. 

Q. Everything you had in the house was burned? 

A. Yes, everything we had. I was told then by the people that 
Mike was all right, that he was up in a neighbor's cottage, Murphy's, 
about a mile out of town; that he was badly beat about the head. 
I was afraid, because so many were telling me he was up there, that 
the police would hear about it and beat me up there, and so I went 
up immediately. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: What was his condition? 

A. He was badly cut about the forehead; his lip was stitched 
here (indicating front of lip), and his jaw was bruised badly, and 
several bad wounds about his head. His arms were so stiff he could 
hardly shake hands with me. 

Q. He was lying on the bed? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Dressed? 

A. Partially dressed — trousers and coat and stockings. I asked 
him to tell me how he got out of the house. He told me he didn't 
know; he remembered calling for his mother two or three times, 
and didn't know anything more. Finally he was found lying in the 
field and brought to this house. 

Q. What is your information about what happened to him? 

The Witness: After he left the house and went into the next 

Senator Walsh: No, before he left the house? 

The Witness: What he told me himself? 

Senator Walsh: Yes. 

The Witness: When we left the room one of the Black-and-Tans 
said: "There is the young lad; take him." And they went to choke 
his brother, John. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh : How old is John? 

A. Just fifteen. And Mike said, "It is not him, it is me who is 
wanted." And they immediately left John go and went for him. 

Q. How old is Mike? 

A. Just twenty. So they immediately went for him and were 
beating him about the face and body. They had him on the bed. 
He asked them to shoot him and end it, and they said shooting was 
too good for him. He then turned his face on the bed to save his 
face, and he was then struck on the back of the head, and they left 
him unconscious. They left him there on account of the fire. 


Q. Where was he — in the burning house? 

A. That was where he was. 

Q. Did he know how he got out of the house? 

A. No, he said. He got out and called for his mother three 
times. He got to the top of the garden and got "Halt," but instead 
of halting he ran and jumped into the neighbor's — Burke's garden. 
There is a river at the back of our place that supplies the denim 
mill with water — about knee deep or so. Mike made it over there. 
They went up the river and Mike went down the river. 

Q. Who went up the river? 

A. Burke. Burke and his two sisters went up the river, and 
Mike went down the river. 

Q. Where was Mike after that? 

A. He was seen down on Quay Street and Mill Street. 

Q. What was his apparent condition? 

A. They did not know. He gave a knock at a door as he was 
passing through the town. 

Q. Apparently seeking shelter? 

A. Knocking at the street door at any rate. 

Q. Where was he found? 

A. Lying in a field of oats by a man named Costello. 

Q. Where was he then taken? 

A. He was taken to Murphy's cottage with no clothes on him. 
I then came back from there and got a motor car and sent him to 
Drogheda, both to be attended to and to be out of the way; and I 
have not seen him since. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is he all right now? Have you got word 
from him since? 

A. No, but he is all right. He cannot communicate. 


Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: I wish you would describe the condition 
of your own house. 

A. It was burned to the ground, and not a vestige left. Not a 
vestige left. Everything burned down. My neighbor's house, Con- 
nolly's, on the opposite corner, was the same way. Nothing but 
bricks and stones. Clanard Street, seventeen houses burned in that 
street, nine in one row. 

0- Were those dwelling houses? 

A. Dwelling houses. Three of them were two-story houses — 
shops — and another was a Mrs. Cochran's dairy. When the Black- 


and-Tans came in there Mrs. Cochran ran out into the yard and 
left two of her little boys behind. One of them was about twelve 
and the other ten. They made them get up and dress themselves 
and brought them through the house upstairs where they were break- 
ing up the furniture. Whenever they would see a religious picture, 
they would make the children look at it, and put their bayonet 
through it. 

Q. Senator Walsh: They would have the children put the 
bayonet through it? 

A. Oh, no; they would do it; but they would make the children 
look at it to see what they were doing. 

Q. Mr. Wood 1 : That means the Black-and-Tans? 

A. Yes, the Black-and-Tans. They brought them down the 
street toward our place to see Derham's fire. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did they sav that to them? 

A. Yes, they took the children by the hand, and told them they 
were bringing them down to see Derham's fire. 

Q. That is to say, your house afire? 

A. Yes, to see my house afire. They brought them back, then, 
into their own yard, and told them to sit down at a hay rick to warm 
themselves. They threw a tin of petrol over the rick and set it afire. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Where did they get the petrol? 

A. When they came into the town, they went that night at quar- 
ter past eleven to a man named Martin Connolly, asking him for 
the keys of his garage; got them; went down and took out thirty 
tins of petrol; locked up the garage; and returned the keys to him, 
and told him his house would be all right. 

Q. How many residences were there burned? 

A. Twenty-five of them altogether. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Just a moment. He did not finish about 
the hay rick. 

A. They then set fire to the hay rick, and then set fire to the 
Cochran house. 

Q. Was that house completely destroyed? 

A. Completely, except the back of the kitchen. 

Q. Were there other houses completely destroyed? 

A. Totally destroyed. Twenty-five houses in the town were 
totally destroyed. 

Q. They were all dwelling houses and all occupied? 

1 Mr. L. Hollingsworth Wood was present at the First Hearings by invi- 
tation of the Commission, and was elected to and accepted membership on 
the Commission prior to the Second Hearings. 


A. Yes, all occupied. In Clanard Street there were nine single 
houses and all destroyed — not a vestige left. 

Q. Were these houses largely owned by people who worked in 
the mills? 

A. Yes, they were occupied by the mill people and fishing people 
and laborers. 

Q. Were there any business places destroyed other than the fac- 
tory you have mentioned? 

A. Yes. Costello and myself and two others; four publicans 
and two groceries; six business houses altogether. 


Q. Senator Walsh: About the mill. Where was the mill located 
with reference to these houses? 

The Witness: The factory? 

Senator Walsh: Yes, the factory. 

A. The factory would be about five hundred yards from the 
nearest burned dwelling. 

Q. Was it detached from the rest of the town? 

A. Yes, detached. There is a railroad embankment passing 
through our town about ten to fifteen feet high, and it is on the sea 
side of the embankment that this factory is situated. You cannot 
see it from the town. 

Q. That factory was burned this night? 

A. It was burned the next morning. 

Q. Was it totally destroyed? 

A. Totally destroyed; one hundred thousand pounds loss. It 
is owned in London. The manager is an Englishman. There is 
nothing in a political line there. Only to leave destitution in the 

Q. It threw them out of work? 

A. Yes, one hundred twenty people in the factory and three hun- 
dred more working in their homes. 

Q. Senator Walsh: You say these people worked in their 

A. In taking the stockings in their homes and doing embroidery 
on them. 

Q. So on your estimate it threw four hundred twenty people out 
of employment? 

A. Yes, out of employment. 

Q. That was their sole means of livelihood? 


A. Yes, their sole means. 

Q. Were there any other houses in Balbriggan for these people 
whose homes were burned? 

A. No, there were no other places for them. I myself have two 
of my girls in lodgings. 

Q. Hired a lodging for them? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Describe how your own family is dis- 

A. Two of them are in lodgings with a friend in Balbriggan, 
and one of the boys is with a friend because he is going to school 
there. Mike is in Drogheda, and the rest of them are in Rush, nine 
miles away. 

Q. Where did you stop? 

A. I stopped in Rush with my wife. We could not get a place 
in the town for them. 

Q. How are these laborers maintained? 

A. There was a public subscription for them in the town. 

Q. As a rule, none of them had savings? 

A. Oh, there were no savings, no. 


Q. What became of the people of the town? 

A. That was a night of terror. Over two-thirds of the people 

were in the country all that night. 

Q. Where did they sleep? 

A. In the fields. They slept anywhere, some of them in ditches 
filled with barbed wire all night. 

Q. They left things behind them? 

A. Yes, everything. Some of them went out only with their 
night dresses and bare feet. 

Q. Men, women, and children? 

A. Yes, everybody. They had to. 

Q. Many children in the town, I suppose? 

A. Many of them. 

Q. Was there any other damage done? 

A. In that Clanard Street I spoke of, they broke the windows of 

fifty houses in that street, along with burning seventeen houses. 

Q. Did that state of terror continue for some time after that? 

A. I think it was Sunday before they settled down. 

Q. And this occurred on Monday night? 


A. On Monday night. 

Q. For the balance of the week, where did the people go? 

A. They spent the night in the country. They did not wait until 
night to go. When four o'clock or evening came, you would see 
them going away to the country, stopping in the farmers' stables or 
barns or hay lofts or anything they could get, or in the ditches. 
Two-thirds of the people left the town during the week. 

Q. Afraid to stay over night? 

A. Yes, because they had it all day. They had these Crossley 
engines running through the town full of Black-and-Tans sitting 
with their rifles at the ready all the time. If they saw a crowd at 
the corner, they would bring up their rifles and fire shots. 

Q. Were they firing shots all the time? 

A. They were. On the Wednesday after that they fired in 
through the grocer's window and took half his collar away, just 
like that (indicating coat lapel). At the same time they threw a 
Mills bomb in the butcher shop on the side street, and a piece went 
through an apple in a young lad's pocket. The next grocery shop 
they fired and destroyed the scales. And another place they fired 
into a crowd of young ladies. 

Q. Going along the road, what is the situation? 

A. They go along the road with these big lorries of three to five 
tons at a dangerous speed. 

Q. Do they fire along the road? 

A. Oh, constantly, at the animals. Take Mr. McCullough; the 
old gentleman was there with his sons, and they fired on them. 
Another place they cut the tails off of four pullets, and one of them 
after died. 


Q. Did they do any other damage? 

A. Yes, they raped and looted. 

Q. What did they do? 

A. In the house next to me there was a public house, and they 
took the bottles away. 

Q. Did they do any drinking? 

A. No, not at this place. The place opposite me, at Connolly's, 
was where they drank. 

Q. What was the situation at Connolly's? 

A. Connolly had two large glass windows, and they broke these 
with the butts of their rifles. The place was well lighted up by the 


fire from my house opposite, and they drank to their fill before the 
place was destroyed. Two grocery stores they looted and raped; 
threw the tea and sugar and soap and candles and everything on the 
floor about three feet high; tramped over it; and pulled things out 
in the passage to destroy what they did not set fire to. 

Q. Did you see the stuff there the next day? 

A. I did. 

Q. Took it out and tramped it in the dirt? 

A. They did. I saw it myself. 

Q. Were there any other business houses destroyed? 

A. Of course, there were four public houses completely de- 
stroyed. All the things in them were completely destroyed. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Was there any way to get repaia- 
tion from the British Government? 

A. They are working for that. They are trying to do it. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Is it a civil process? 

A. They are going to the civil courts first, and they do not know 
what they will do afterward. 

Q. These business men are trying to do this? 

A. Yes, they are trying to do that. 

Q. Does the British Government acknowledge that as a claim? 

A. No, they do not acknowledge that. We are trying to test 
them first. 

Q. Has there been any inquiry held in Balbriggan by the au- 

A. No, not that I know of. I never had an invitation to any 

Q. Did the British Labor Party send a mission to Balbriggan as 
it did to Thurles? 

A. No, but the International Women's League did. 1 That came 
from Manchester. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Can you tell us about that? 

A. Yes. I met them when they came. I was on the same train. 
As a matter of fact, the leader handed me a letter with my name on 
it, asking me where Mr. Derham was. 

Q. Did they seem to be making a fair-minded investigation? 

A. They did. They seemed to be all right. 

Q. Mr. Wood: Did they question the people any? 

1 The witness refers to the British Branch of the Women's Interna- 
tional League, which sent an investigating mission to Ireland, two mem- 
bers of which, Mrs. Annot Erskine Robinson and Miss Ellen C. Wilkin- 
son, testified before the Commission. See index and list of witnesses. 


A. They did. They questioned the people who had gone 
through the fine and slept out in the fields. 

Q. Did they question the police? 

A. I do not know. 

Q. How long a time did they spend there? 

A. From half twelve to five. They went on the same train 
back to Dublin that I was going back. 

Q. Half twelve means half-past eleven or half-past twelve? 

A. Half-past twelve. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Were there any dairies in the neighbor- 
hood destroyed? 

A. No; we do not have any dairies. The only thing we had 
was factories. That was all they could destroy. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: These textile workers, do they be- 
long to a union? 

A. They do. They are all union. 

Q. Do you have any other unions in the city? 

A. The only other union we have is the Irish Transport 

Q. These fishermen, do they dispose of their own catch or work 
for some fishing concern? 

A. They dispose of their own catch. That is a thing that 
the Republican government is trying to bring in — cooperation — so 
that we can all do our own business. 

Q. These unions, as unions, are they in any way harassed by 
the Black-and-Tans and the military? 

A. No, not as unions. That would be too large a job. 


Q. Chairman Howe: Is the press in Balbriggan free to say 
what it pleases? 

A. There is no local press. There is the Freeman, but the 
editor is to be up before the Government this week or next week 
for condemning the actions of the Black-and-Tans in the country. 

He is under arrest? 

Yes, he is to be called up for trial. 



Before the regular criminal courts? 

I could not say as to that. 

There is an indictment against him? 

Yes, for condemning the Black-and-Tans. 


Q. Do they permit public meetings in Balbriggan? 

A. No public meetings are allowed. 

Q. No gatherings in the streets? 

A. None in the streets. 

Q. Or in the halls? 

A. You can go to the hall if they know what the meeting is 

about, but you cannot hold any political meeting. 

Q. Where do the Republicans hold their political meetings? 

A. Oh, different places. 

Q. But they do hold them? 

A. Yes, they do hold them. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: They are not generally advertised? 

A. Oh, no. Oh, no. 


Q. Chairman Howe: What has been the effect of this on the 
business of Balbriggan, especially from the country districts? 

A. The country districts are bad. It is hard on them. You 
do not have any country people in the afternoon. They will come 
in only when they have to. They cannot travel on the roads to 
Dublin or Drogheda, for they are afraid of the shooting. 

Q. Where do the people get their food from? 

A. It has to come in on the trains or from around the town. 

Q. The people do not come into the town like they did? 

A. No. We are in a sense isolated. It is not safe to be com- 
ing in. You do not know what you are going to meet. 

Q. Does the local town council meet regularly in Balbriggan? 

A. It did not for awhile. It took five to form a quorum. When 
my son was away, we could not get a quorum, because the Union- 
ists did not attend. 

Q. You had no local government, then? 

A. Not until he came out. Since then we have had two or 
three meetings. He would go to Balbriggan to attend them and 
then leave. 

Q. So your local government is not functioning now? 

A. Oh, well, its duties are not much. You see the state of 
terrorism there, and people are so frightened. My son was not 
out until the fifteenth of October. That was more than a month 
afterwards. He went down to Balbriggan on Saturday, to attend 
a council meeting. On Saturday evening, when he was seen about, 
they got a report that there would be a raid on to get Derham by 


night. Half the town slept in the fields that night in fear of what 
might happen. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Is your son on the run? 

A. The two of them are on the run. He goes in the daytime. 
They are not afraid in the daytime. It is the night time they are 
afraid of. It is terrorism. You do not want to be with friends, 
for you are liable to get the whole place broken up for them. 
And if you stay in your own home, it is sure to be broken up. 


Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Have there been any deaths since? 

A. Five of them, soon after that: three elderly persons and 
two children. The fright and exposure was largely to blame for it. 

And it isn't over yet. There were handbills saying, "Send in- 
formation to D. W. Ross, London." That is the way they get all 
their information. They came around three weeks after the burn- 
ing and pasted one on every door in town, and at some doors they 
knocked. There was an old woman sixty-five or sixty-eight years 
of age, and she died from the fright. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: What were these bills? 

A. Handbills telling us to send any information we knew about 
Sinn Fein to D. W. Ross, London, and you would get the money 

Q. Who is D. W. Ross? Does anybody know? 

A. That is unknown. It is somebody in London. You send in 
the information, and you would get a reward afterwards. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: In these raids, did they just take 
particular parties, or did they take the whole street, or select those 
who are Republicans and Sinn Fein? 

A. They did not take everybody. They picked them out like 
they did me. 

Q. Any big business property molested besides the big mill? 

A. No, that was all, the big mill. 


Now, you might want to know about burials. When the funerals 
of Lawless and Gibbons were about to be held, we were going to 
have the tricolor on the coffins. 

Q. Chairman Howe: What is the tricolor? 

A. The colors of the Irish Republic. When the funerals were 
to be held, we wanted to have the Volunteers there and march. 
But about twelve o'clock that day, or eleven, the word came 


through some of the clergy that if this thing was to go on, if there 
was any tricolor out or any military formation, the Black-and- 
Tans would come on that night and wipe the town out. There 
was a long discussion. Some of them wanted to do it anyway. 
But it was finally decided that for the sake of the town we would 
have to cut it out. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Is there any limitation of the number 
of persons who are allowed to attend people's funerals? 

A. At the present time there is a limitation, as in the case of 
the late Lord Mayor of Cork, Terrence MacSwiney. It was limited 
to a quarter of a mile long. There would have been four or five 
miles of it. And then you are accompanied by these motor lorries. 


Q. I believe you had some information about the murder of 
a man at Sherries? 

A. At Skerries. 

Q. What is the situation of this town? 

A. Four miles from us. 

Q. What are the circumstances of the death of Mr. Sherlock? 

A. Penstraw is that man's name. He was supposed to be 
around with the Black-and-Tans at the night of the sacking of 
Balbriggan, showing them where the Sinns were. So he left the 
town the day after, and he was in Skerries. The report was that 
the Skerries Volunteers put him out of Skerries. That was the 
report. That was about three or four days afterwards. About a 
month after that, there was a body got about eight miles away in 
a ditch. It turned out to be Penstraw. He was not buried right. 
There was heavy rains on. There was some young lads in the 
ditch getting blackberries, and they found the body. 

Q. Was there a man named Sherlock in that place? 

A. Well, then, he was identified. The police were very active, 
and he was identified as Penstraw. 

Q. Was there a man named Sherlock killed there? 

A. Yes. Well, that night they went up to Skerries in motor 

Q. How many? 

A. I do not know how many lorries went up, but there was a 
hundred or so Black-and-Tans. They stopped out on the Balbriggan 
side of the town and walked so that they would make no noise. 
They went to a namesake of mine, Derham, and knocked on his 


door, and he let them in, and stood in another door as they passed 
by and went upstairs in the house. And then they went out again. 
Derham immediately went out, when they broke in the door to look 
for him. So he escaped. They then went to a young man named 
Terrol and kept him on his knees for two hours, and then went for 
Sherlock. The father answered the door. They asked for his son 
John — John Sherlock. The father said, "He is not in. - " He said, 
"it is all right, father. They will not do me any harm." They 
brought him away about three hundred yards in a field, and when 
his father and sister found him that morning, about seven o'clock, 
there were three bullet wounds in his breast and four in his head. 
But Terrol was all right. They did not shoot him. The next night 
they came again and set fire to Derham's house and burned it 
all up. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: This first man, he was an informer? 

A. \es. he was said to be an informer, going around with the 

Q. Was there any reason for the Black-and-Tans believing that 
these men were implicated in this crime? 

A. The only reason was that the body was found about eight 
miles away from Skerries. 

Q. There was no oth 

was no otner reason 

A. No. 

Q. It was only an excuse? 

A. Yes, all they wanted was an excuse. That was all they 

Q. Mr. Wood: But was this body identified as that of the man? 

A. Yes, I believe an uncle and an aunt identified it. 

Q. But the body had been dead a long time? 

A. Yes, it was. He was missing for about a month. I don't 
know how long the body was there. But they could identify it by 
some of the things or. the body. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Have you any further statement you want 
to make? 

Senator Walsh: I think that covers it, Mr. Derham. 

Q. Mr. Wood: The Smith public house was also destroyed? 

A. Oh, no; nothing done there. Not a pane of glass broken. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Was that Smith place a place to which the 
Black-and-Tans resorted a great deal? 

A. They did. 

Q. None of them ever came to your place? 

A. They did not. None of them came there. Perhaps two or 
three times altogether. 


Q. Commissioner Maurer: How do you explain that? They left 
the Smith house and destroyed the others. 

A. That is the mystery. If that had happened in my house, 1 
would not be here. There was not a pane of glass broken in the 
Smith house. 

Chairman Howe: That is all. Thank you very much. 

The witness was thereupon excused. 

* * * * * » * « 


Chairman Howe: Is Mrs. King here? 

(The witness takes the stand.) 

Mrs. King, of Ironton. 

Q. Please state, Mrs. King, your full name and residence. 

A. Agnes B. King, of Ironton, Ohio. 

Q. How long have you lived in Ironton? 

A. Six years. 

Q. And in the United States? 

A. All my life. 

Q. You were born here? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Are you married? 

A. I am a widow with three children. 

Q. Are you a professional woman? 

A. I cannot be said to be that, no. I have taught school formerly 
in the Cleveland public schools. That is all. 

Q. You have been recently in Ireland? 

A. Yes, for about eight weeks, and one week in London. 

Q. When did you enter Ireland? 

A. I entered Ireland on the twenty-second of July. 

Q. When did you leave? 

A. The twenty-third of September, 1920. 

Q. What led you to Ireland? 

A. I went over at first for my health. I did not intend to visit 
Ireland except for two or three weeks. My real intention was to 
take my grown-up niece, who was a French student, to France. But 
I changed my mind after being in Ireland two or three weeks, be- 
cause the situation was so engrossing. And so, although I had a 
passport to France, I did not go. 

Q. Why did you go to Ireland? 

A. I went to Ireland because my mother and father were born 
in Ireland. My father was all through his life a very strict Protes- 
tant, and would not on any account enter a Catholic church. He 


was opposed to the Catholic faith save as he saw it exemplified in 
my mother's life, and this he admired. 

Q. Your mother was a Catholic? 

A. Yes, she was a Catholic. 

Q. Were they born in Ireland? 

A. Yes, they were both born in Cork city. He was baptized in 
the famous Shandon church. I got his baptismal record while I 
was over there. 

Q. What was your father's business? 

A. He was a manufacturer of barrels all his life. 

Q. You went back to visit their old home? 

A. Yes. My mother died last January, and I became very ill 
after her death, and my people suggested that a sea voyage would 
do me much good, and I said that perhaps the sight of my mother's 
and my father's birthplace would reawaken interest in me. And I 
also wanted to take this niece, who had been raised by mother from 
a baby. I thought that if she had a stay in France, it would be 
the best thing for her. I also took my daughter with me. My 
daughter is twelve years of age. 

Q. Where did you land in Ireland? 

A. Kingstown, I think. We went straight across from Liver- 
pool. We took a taxi up to the hotel in Dublin. 

Q. How long did you remain in Dublin? 

A. About a week, I think. 

Q. What did you do there? 

Q. We went sight-seeing, and I called on my people there. We 
visited all the famous churches there, and the cemeteries. I think 
that is about all that I did in Dublin. 

Q. You know in a general way the purposes of this inquiry. 
Now, go on in your own way. 


A. The first time that I was terrified in Ireland was at Temple- 
more. I remember going with my daughter and my niece to visit a 
church on Saturday evening, and the lorries were coming into town 
at full speed. This was my first close view of lorries. They were 
bent on terrorizing the people. They came down the road at a very 
high rate of speed. The drivers were completely white with dust. 
It seemed to me almost like flour dust, they were going so fast. 
The lorries were all filled with soldiers. The guns were all at atten- 
tion. I clung to my daughter and my niece, and I think we said a 
few prayers, for it had been said in Templemore that day that they 


were bent on mischief. The driver wanted to have a little fun, for 
he swung the first lorry near to the curb, and the muffler blew off just 
as they passed us. I called out, "We are Americans," but of course 
it was only my woman's fright and terror. 

During that night we drew the dresser up in front of the window, 
and during that night there were shots fired in the Square. 

Q. Where is Templemore? 

A. It is in the central part of Tipperary, not far from Thurles. 
When I arrived in Templemore I heard of the outrages in Thurles, 
and the air seemed rife with coming danger. So I was anxious to 
be out of the place as soon as possible. I might say that in every 
place and in every town where we stopped in Ireland, the dressers 
were put up before the windows to ward off the shots if there were 
firing during the night. In Cork, really the only place that I was 
interested in seeing in Ireland, because it was the city of my parents' 
nativity, I was thinking of anything but of the military program in 
that city, and was bent on thoughts of my recently deceased mother 
when we entered the city. There we were in the midst of scenes 
of great military activity, and I was almost regretful that I had 
come. There was a raid on, and there were Lewis guns and tanks 
and many of the military surrounding the place where they were 
raiding. The citizenry of Cork was standing about in a very quiet 
way, and I believe that I was the most turbulent person there and 
the most agitated. I rushed to the hotel and said, "Please give me 
a back room, so that we will be as far as possible away from this 
shooting." The lady said to me, "You are not brave like the women 
of Ireland. You do not have to suffer like this in America." My 
daughter and myself were given a rear room on the top floor of the 
hotel, but there was a window in this room that let out on the side 
street. The porter placed the dresser and the large wardrobe before 
that window as a protection from stray shots that might come down 
that side street. My little daughter seemed to be less fearful than 
myself. Once or twice after the curfew had been on that night — 
the curfew lowers at ten o'clock in Cork; it had been put on about 
a week before we entered the town — my little daughter went to the 
window to look out, and I called her back. She said, "Mama, there 
is no danger if you peek out of the corner of the window." We 
then peeked out and it seemed to me that about a dozen soldiers — 
I cannot give the exact number — were halting men in the side street. 
I think some of those men escaped halting, because of the inter- 
mittent peeks that we gave. We watched those men: in some way 
they ran into the side street and escaped the military that night. 
I saw the military all through the night down that side street as if 


watching for someone. Needless to say, there was very little sleep 
that night, and I almost forgot that it was my mother's birthplace. 
I may say that the next day I started to take a picture from the 
upper window of the hotel, where many people were watching the 
soldiers in the square below, and a man said to me — a man with 
a decided English accent — 

Q. Chairman Howe: What were the soldiers doing? 

A. Preparing for a raid. 

Q. Would you please describe this raid? 

A. There were many lorries and hundreds of soldiers with their 
guns at attention. Each squad of soldiers were pointing their guns 
in different directions, so that no angle was left uncovered by guns 
and bayonets. The Lewis guns were ready for firing, and what 
were called tanks — I would not have known it, but they told me it 
was a tank that was waiting there. The officers were busy com- 
manding the soldiers. And then suddenly they rushed into this 
house to raid it. What they did inside this house I do not know. 

Q. A private house or a business house? 

A. A business house, a publishing business, and also a store- 
house for groceries. 

Q. What did they do on that raid? 

A. I was not inside. I do not know. 

Q. You saw the soldiers go into that house? 

A. Yes, dozens of soldiers going in with bayonets at attention. 

Q. Did they bring anything out? 

A. They brought nothing out. 

Q. Was the house destroyed or burned? 

A. No, not that day. It was what one would call, after seeing 
others, a peaceful raid. They were searching, I believe, for a man 
they did not get, and for documents, according to what was said in 
the papers. 

I Went to take the picture of this immense gathering of military 
because of the fact that it was my nearest approach to war in my 
lifetime. And this man said, "My God, girl, if they see you they 
will shoot!" I said, "Why would they shoot?" He said, "They 
would take that camera to be something that a Sinn Feiner was 
throwing, and they would shoot." He said, "I am an Englishman, 
and I would not take a picture of this gathering myself." 

Q. Chairman Howe: Did you see any other raids? 

A. I did. Shall I give you some of the other things I saw at 

Senator Walsh: Yes, chronologically. 



The Witness: The nights, then, while I stayed in the hotel — my 
stays were very brief in Cork because of my extreme timidity, but 
I still wanted to get in touch with some of my mother's and father's 
relatives because they had long been in America; so I went back, 
I think, four times to Cork — the people would gather in the lower 
parlor, that is, the parlor on the second floor of the hotel, in order 
to watch the movements of the military as soon as the curfew hour 
approached. One could gather by that whether the military were 
bent on any dread business that night. At any rate, lights went 
out and at five minutes to ten there was on each night a scurrying 
of bullets on the road from Patrick Street down (Patrick Street is 
on the road straight up from the hotel ) — a scurrying of bullets to 
clear the street, as near as one could tell. In the morning one 
would read from the papers that these bullets would fly because 
men would not halt, or something of that sort. After the first scurry 
of bullets there would be motor lorries. Sometimes they would 
come at a rapid pace through the town, making a great noise. 
Sometimes they would come in funeral style: first fifty soldiers 
advancing, with a slow-moving lorry after, and then fifty more 
soldiers and a slow-moving lorry, and then at the head of this 
procession a great searchlight, which they would throw onto the 
top of the buildings. They seemed to single out churches more 
than any other buildings, from what I could see. One woman at 
the windows — she was not on the run, but her husband was, and so 
she was stopping wherever she could get a night's rest, and this 
night she was stopping at the hotel — she was well-nigh sick or 
hysterical with fear because she could not know where her husband 
was. And she turned to an English gentleman who was in the parlor 
and said, "Is not this terrible? We can never return to our own 
homes." And he said, "When I return to England I shall tell my 
people that they are waging war on women and children rather 
than on men, for from what I have seen, it is doing more harm to 
the women and children than to the men." I turned to him and 
said, "You are an Englishman?" "I am," he said. "Why did you 
come to Ireland?" I said. "Just to see the conditions." And that 
is all the conversation that occurred then. Later I said, "It is 
frightening me." He said, "It is frightening everyone." 

Then we went into the back room and barricaded the door. On 
each night of our stay in Cork, there were shots near or far away 
from our immediate room. 



Tien I went to Bantry, because my daughter was named after 
someone in Bantry. and I wished her to see her namesake. I had 
never known or met this woman before. On the night I entered 
Bantry the scenes were very terrifying, and I readily concluded that 
one night was all I could stand in Bantry. While in Bantry I talked 
with the mother of a little boy who had been shot a few nights 
previously. That was about the first week in August that the boy 
had been shot. The mother was quite repressive on account of the 
disaster that had occurred in her home. I cannot say her age, but 
she seemed to me a woman well up in the sixties. She said that 
she had one Volunteer son who was on the run, and a little hunch- 
back boy who was at home with her and his father on the night 
that the raid occurred. There were no lights at night on the streets 
of Bantry, and the Black-and-Tans or the R. I. C. — they are dis- 
guised so that one could not tell to which body they belonged — 
they knocked on the door. She answered the knock with a candle 
in her hand. The soldiers knocked the candle from her, using an 
electric light to light them up the stairs. The Volunteer boy was 
not at home. The little hunch-back boy ran from his own room 
into his brother's room. The mother rushed up the stairs after 
them, and was in sight of the tragedy when it occurred. "My boy's 
hands were raised in prayer," she said. "He was only a little 
hunch-back and had never done any harm to anybody. He had 
never done any greater harm than trapping a rabbit now and then 
to make a few pennies to make him feel that he was in the world 
of the living. They shot through his uplifted hands; and his mother 
said that as they shot he was saying, "My Jesus, have mercy on me." 
He fell back as a shot pierced his hands, and the men stepped close 
to the bedside and pierced the chest with three bullets. They then 
left the house, and they completed then the raiding in that town. 
Q. Senator Walsh: How old was that hunch-back boy?- 
A. I did not ask his age, but I should say about fifteen or 

Q. This was all related to you by the mother? You did not see 
any of it yourself? 


A. I did not see any of it myself. I saw the ravages in the 
town; and, strange to say, one of the worst ravages in that town 
occurred on the home of a Unionist and a man of the Protestant 
faith. Most of the people in the town are of the Catholic faith., 


This man had written a letter about the little hunch-back's death 
and the misconduct of the military to the newspaper, and sa d he 
also wished to state in public that there had never been any religious 
ill-feeling in their community, and that he had always lived in peace 
and harmony with his neighbors of different faith. The next night 
his place was completely burned, and I saw the ruins of it. There 
Was scarcely a stone left upon a stone. I believe at that time he 
had entered a report of damages to the British Government to the 
extent of thirty thousand pounds. It was after making the second 
statement about the misconduct of the military in that town that 
his home was burned. I saw the place that was set on fire. If I 
remember rightly, his name was Hennissey, a man with seven or 
eight children in the family. The house was burned while all the 
occupants were inside the house. I asked if any were burned, and 
they said that fortunately all escaped over the rear walls or through 
the windows, and were only bruised and cut a bit by glass. 

The entire appearance of Bantry is of a devastated town where 
business is at a standstill. The young men of the town are many 
of them on the run. They are sent out from their own homes to 
other places, so that the military cannot find them when they are 
in search of them. This cripples the industry of the town; and 
then the leading places of the town being burned and bombed has 
crippled business. 

Q. Chairman Howe: How large a place is Bantry — three or four 

A. Yes, more than that, I think. It has one long main street. 
While I was there, the day I was there, the workhouse was com- 
mandeered by the soldiers; and the sisters in charge, the Sisters of 
Mercy, were given twenty-four hours to have all their things taken 
out. The poor and the old people of the town were there. I think 
there were twelve sisters in charge of the institution ordinarily. 
And then all the inmates were forced to leave. 

Q. Senator Walsh: The workhouse in Ireland corresponds with 
the home for the aged here? 

A. Yes; the old and infirm and those who have no one to help 
them. I visited the town of Youghal, a seaside resort, expecting 
to have rest and quiet there. But military lorries patrolled the town 
through the day and through the night, and there was very little 
rest possible. There was a great deal of destruction, and there 
I witnessed a raid on several houses. They were looking for boys 
who were on the run and supposed to be in hiding there. I took 
a ride on the Blackwater up to Cappoquin, accompanied by my 
niece and my daughter and three of my mother's second cousins. 


We were engaged on a studious talk on that occasion. The girls 
were speaking Irish and French to me. It was an interesting gather- 
ing. The tide did not allow us to return easily. We had to oar 
it all the way. We had two oarsmen in the boat, and they worked 
hard until we reached Youghal, about one-thirty in the morning. 
When we reached the landing, military activities on both sides of 
the river commenced. The little boat going down the river made 
them think, perhaps, that it was a Volunteer party, so that lights 
were played on the boat constantly. I was afraid they would fire 
on us, and I began to sing "The Star-Spangled Banner" as well 
as I could sing it. I told the girls, who had, perhaps, a strong 
Southern accent, though they speak a number of languages with 
equal fluency, not to speak, and I would speak in my Yankee tone. 
So I carried on a long conversation about George Washington. 
Then we three Americans all sang "The Star-Spangled Banner," 
and the two oarsmen pulled hard to reach the landing before any 
more signals were given or lights played on the boat. Perhaps the 
signals might be accounted for by the fact that they might have 
thought we were these boys on the run, as they raided many homes 
in Youghal the following morning. 


I returned to Templemore mainly in the interests of my religious 
convictions a few weeks later, because there had been reported 
something like a miracle transpiring in Templemore. On that 
second visit I saw the ruins of the town hall, and talked to an ex- 
soldier who explained that — 

Q. Senator Walsh: Ex-British soldier, or an Irishman? 

A. Yes, he was an Irish soldier who had served with the British 
forces in the World War, and was still badly crippled. He still 
wore his uniform. He explained how the petrol had been gathered 
from the garages on the little street facing the Square, and how it 
had been poured over this building and set fire to the night before, 
the Black-and-Tans and the military going through the streets 
knocking at the doors and calling, "Come out, you Irish swine." 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Had anything happened before this 
in Templemore? What led them to this attack? 

A. No, not that I could hear of, Miss Addams. 

The town hall was where the people gathered for their pleasure 
gatherings. They poured petrol over it and set fire to it; but one 
soldier, in attempting to burn it, was imprisoned inside, and the 
officer who was with him, in trying to jump through the window, 
had his leg broken and died two days later. 


Then this religious miracle that the people could only explain 
in one way over there. It created a spirit of friendliness between 
the people inside the barracks and the rest of the people. They 
refused to go on with their work of shooting and terrorizing. I 
was all through that barracks at Templemore. That was the only 
barracks I had a chance of getting into. The windows were all 
barred, and there were large sacks around the windows, and barbed 
wire around the building. 

Q. But what I wanted to get at was what started the military to 
attack Templemore? 

A. I do not know. I could not find anything. I only know 
that this second burning with petrol was caused by the death of the 
officer who had jumped through the window of the burning building. 
They warned the people that if the officer died the town would be 
razed to the ground. It was at this time that the miracle occurred. 
The people of every kind were immensely impressed with the 
orderly nature of the thousands who poured into the city to see it, 
as were the police themselves. The police were not in any way 
able to keep the thousands or tens of thousands of people who came 
into the city in order, and so the Volunteers did the work. The 
Volunteer who led me into the Square, he led me in ahead of the 
rest because I was an American, and I offered him a pound note 
and he said, "I am a member of the Volunteer Army, and we are 
not allowed to take anything for acts of courtesy," so he refused 
this from me. At this time they were riding out to a town named 
Carriheen, about seven miles from Templemore. Everybody was 
bent on going out to this village, and some of the car drivers were 
exacting up to seventy shillings for the trip. The Volunteers fixed 
the price at something like thirty shillings less, so as to prevent a 
very great graft in carrying people this short distance. They also 
asked each vehicle that passed over the road to contribute a very 
small sum toward the upkeep of the roads around the town, which 
was gladly paid. 

Q. Did they know the Volunteers were doing this? 

A. Yes, they knew, and the police were helpless. They could 
not do anything with this crowd of people; there were too many 
of them. The police would come out and talk with the Volunteers 
and say, "Boys, keep the people back from the police barracks." 



I asked one of the policemen inside of the barracks on this occa- 
sion if he was an Irishman, and he said, "I am." I said, "Are you 
then in sympathy with the Republican movement, or are you in 
sympathy with the Union as heretofore practiced in Ireland?" He 
said, "You must not ask me such a question. There may be some- 
body listening." I said, "If you would resign your position, what 
would happen to you?" And he said to me, "Miss, do you read 
the papers? Do you know that when a policeman resigns he either 
has to get out of the country at this stage of the game or else the 
Black-and-Tans will probably tell him that he has done wrong in 
a very effective way?" I got very little from that. I give it to 
you just as he told it to me. He said the Black-and-Tans would 
soon let a man know that he had done wrong in quitting the force. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: What kind of police? 

A. The R. I. C. They have to give a thirty-day notice to quit 
the force. There was one in Cork who gave this notice, and im- 
mediately there was a police murder in Cork, and the paper said, 
"Killed by parties unknown." 

Q. Commissioner Addams: This same policeman was killed? 

A. Yes, the same man. The policeman in the barracks called 
my attention to the fact that the same man was killed by parties 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did you get the impression that the Black- 
and-Tan organization was independent of the Royal Irish Constabu- 
lary, and was sort of a spy organization upon the Royal Irish 

A. Yes, I did. 

Q. The authorities got the impression that they could not trust 
the Royal Irish Constabulary to do their work, and so checked up 
on them by the Black-and-Tans? 

A. Yes, they did. The two parties do not get along very well 
in most cases. Inside the police barracks there are usually several 

Q. You mean to say that the Black-and-Tans became friendly 
with the crowd? 

A. It means all who were in the barracks; because in this bar- 
racks there were only, I think, two Black-and-Tans. I remember 
passing them when I walked into the barracks. There was a great 
deal of respect shown by the military in the adjoining military 


barracks, which is quite distinct from the Royal Irish Constabulary 
barracks, in the way the Volunteers handled the crowd. 

Q. Up to this time there had been no destruction in the town? 

A. Yes, the town hall was destroyed the night before, and they 
were coming back in case this officer died to destroy the town. But 
this little boy had manifested some miraculous evidences, and they 
did not destroy the rest of the town. The crowds were largely 
praying through the day and the night, and the officers looked 
around at the crowds without attempting anything. I had a front 
room in the hotel, the first time I was brave enough to have one, 
and looked out at the crowds. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: These crowds came out in anticipa- 
tion of the town being destroyed? 

A. No, on account of the miracle. The crowds came from all 
parts of Ireland and England. I met many people from England 
who had been waiting to get into the town from six o'clock in the 

Q. Senator Walsh: The story had gone out that the miracle 
had occurred there and the people came from all directions to see 
about it? 

A. Yes, that was it. 


The main terror of my experience in Ireland was in Gal way. I 
had come home late from the Isles of Aran, accompanied there by 
a friend. I went up to get a paper from the platform at the railroad 
station. It was the custom when the goods train came in — there 
were no passenger trains coming into Galway — to have the people 
of the town go up and get the papers from the train. They were 
anxious to get the news of the condition of Mayor MacSwiney. 
There was a man on the platform to whom I paid little attention, 
and could not give a description of him in a satisfactory way. He 
wore what I think was a loose cap. He did not appear to me to 
be a regular soldier, nor did he seem to me to be the customary 
Black-and-Tan. There was a woman on the platform at the station 
with three or four children. There was an English officer on the 
platform, and there were many civilians. I turned my head in this 
direction (indicating aside), and the man in this peculiar uniform 
whipped out a revolver. He was standing with another man in 
ordinary attire. And he slashed the revolver around and began 
shooting. One shot hit a boy in the leg, and I heard him call, "I 
got it in the leg." I ran then for shelter to the door of the hotel, 
and looked at the woman running to the British officer with her 


children. He seemed to be wholly engaged in keeping this woman 
and children safe. I thought at the time they were his family, but 
I do not know that. One of the boys stepped up quickly to the 
man who had been shot, and then I heard another shot ring out. 
That boy was not killed instantly, but fell at once. He later died, 
and the next day I saw him in death. Then another boy jumped 
from the back and caught the soldier in this way (indicating across 
the body), so that he had only one hand free. And then a harsh 
shot rang out and this soldier fell to the ground. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Who fired the first shot? 

A. This man in a strange attire. He was not dressed as a 
Black-and-Tan that night. There was perfect peace, and we were 
all waiting for the papers, and he whipped out the revolver and 
began to fire. 

Q. Chairman Howe: What was the purpose of the shooting? 

A. That I could not tell. The reason I went to Galway was that 
everything was quiet there. There was no curfew there and every- 
thing was quiet. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Could you give any information why a man 
on the station platform, without any reason — a Black-and-Tan or 
anybody else — would draw a revolver and begin to fire shots? 

A. I cannot say. Unless there is some actual damage done in 
the town by civilians or others, there is no curfew law. And there 
was no curfew law in Galway. 

Q. So you think that this man was stationed there to shoot so 
that the curfew law would be applied to Galway? 

A. That is what has been suggested. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: The man was not insane? 

A. Not that I know. 

Q. Could you gather whether the man who did the shooting was 
an Englishman or an Irishman? 

A. He was an Englishman as well as I could gather from the 
gathering of men in the hotel immediately after the shooting. It 
was what is known over there as a shoneen hotel, where many 
British officers stay. I chose this hotel for my own safety. The 
officers who were there during the day were downstairs with their 
bathrobes about them. One man in full civilian dress, with the 
same sort of a cap on him as the man on the outside had, stepped 
up to a man right at my side and asked who had been shot. He 
said, "I don't know who he was." And then the other man said, 
"Tell me how he was dressed." The man by my side described him 
as best he could, and then the man with the cap on said, "My God, 
it is my brother," and dashed up the hotel stairs. And then in 


about three minutes he jumped down the stairway of the hotel and 
hurried out, stopping to talk to no one and pushing them in front 
of him very rapidly. 

Immediately the crowd said there would be a raid this night. I 
had a front room up to this time, for I was unafraid. 

Q. Senator Walsh: You understood that this man said that the 
Englishman who was speaking was a brother to the man who fired 
the shot and was later killed? 

A. Yes, sir. I went to my room and did not undress. I threw 
a loose coat about me and lay on the bed, awaiting danger. 1 was 
not asleep. Presently I heard the tramp of soldiers approaching. 
I had with me, I may explain, a few letters from the Countess 
Markievicz introducing me to a British general. General Barton, who 
is now in Pentonville prison, I believe. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is General Barton the distinguished general 
who did such splendid service during the war. and returned to 
Ireland, and was converted to Sinn Fein? 

A. Yes, he is now in Pentonville prison. 

Q. You had a letter to him? 

A. Yes, I had a letter from his sister, and also two or three 
letters from a man in Cork whose business was ruined and who got 
out this letter, and I bought several of them for souvenirs. I also 
had this copy of Dail Eireann, which was given to me by the 
Minister of Labor, Countess Markievicz. I also had the card of 
Lord Mayor MacSwiney for a souvenir. I had nothing else, with 
the exception of one or two things as souvenirs. I had a letter to 
Mrs. Bryce, the sister-in-law of our former ambassador. All of these 
things seemed to me to be contraband of war, and I became abso- 
lutely terrorized, thinking that any minute they might connect me 
with this murder case and hurry me off to prison. I could not light 
a light because, as I looked outside the window, the soldiers were 
immediately outside the hotel door. There seemed to be about two 
hundred fifty of them, with helmets on them and fully accoutered 
in war clothing. I drew back in the room and held these papers 
as if they were absolutely deadly instruments instead of mere 
writings. I began to chew up the Lord Mayor's card. I was afraid 
they would enter the room, and the papers fell out of my hand to 
the floor and I could not see all of them. I then opened the door 
and called to the only man whom I saw walking in the corridor. 
I called to him and said: "I am ill and am alone, and want you 
to come in and help me gather some papers." He said, "What 
papers are they?" I said, "They are merely personal correspond- 
ence. I want to get them out of the way." He said, "Then destroy 

them/' I -aid. "Yes, destro) them, but one cannot light a light in 
here." He said. •"Follow me." I followed him into the lavatory, 
and he said. ."Throw them into the lavatory." I said. "If the) 
don't go down, and they find them, what will happen to me? Then 
I will he shot." He said. "Give them to me," and tore them up in 
hits and got rid of them, and then he asked me, "What right have 
you to have them?" I said, "They are only letters." He said. "Do 
not carry any letters or even what is printed. The law makes what 
was printed or written legally only a few weeks ago a seditious 
document now." 

Then I went out into the hall and saw two British officers, and 
said. "Will some of you men come down? I am alone back here. 
This seems to he war on women more than on men." The man said. 
"^ on may go into your room. There will he nothing happen to you. 
You are an American. Thev are only taking reprisals out in the 
street." I said. "What do you mean by reprisals?" He said. 
"They are shooting some of the townspeople that deserve shooting."' 
The shootings continued, volley after volley. 

Q. Senator Walsh: During all this time was there shooting 
going on? 

A. Right outside the door. ^1 on could hear the shooting and 
the commands given to the soldiers. 1 went the next morning to a 
home that had been almost completely destroyed, petrol having been 
poured upon it. One of the ladies there had just returned to Ireland 
on a trip from America, after fifty years* absence. Her trunk was 
burned in the fire. The house had been attacked and they had 
broken the windows before trying to burn it. The women got out 
to safety. 

Q. Why was this house attacked? 

A. There was a young boy there named Broderick who was taken 
out to be shot because he was a Volunteer. He is not dead; he is in 
charge of the military now, or has escaped. The Black-and-Tans 
kept the firing up, and then they went to the lodgings of a young 
boy named Quirk. His corpse was found early the next morning. 
There were nine bullet holes in his body below the waist. He was 
taken to the spot where the Black-and-Tan was shot, and then he 
was shot nine times below the waistdine, and did not die until three 
hours later. He was virtually disemboweled. There were pools of 
blood from the station just across the way clear across the street. 
He died at five o'clock in the morning. His name was Quirk, and 
he was on the run from Cork. There were no inquests allowed in 
these cases. At five o'clock in the morning there was a very great 
sound of breaking, although the military were returning, and I was 


up and dressed and out in the hall to be near the British officers 
when the bullets were flying. It was not the return of the military. 
They were engaged in battering down the only newspaper in the 
town. It is called The Galway Express. 

Q. Commissioner Acldams: Who was battering down this 

A. The Black-and-Tans. They battered clown everything in the 
office. I saw the office at eight o'clock the next morning, and there 
was not a vestige of the machinery left. Everything was on the 
floor in heaps. I saw the manager of the place stooping down and 
gathering up single bits of type which he saw on the floor. They 
gathered up enough type to get out a special edition of the paper 
on a little sheet like this (holding up copy). I would like to read 
you what it says (reads) : 

"The Galway Express, Thursday, September Ninth. Special 
Issue. Price, one penny. The Murder of Innocent Men. People's 
Admirable Restraint Under Extreme Provocation. Galway Express 
Premises Demolished. An Unparalleled Outbreak of Crime Took 
Place in Galway This Morning." 

The Witness: Perhaps I had better not read it. It is all like 
that. Only this line (reads) : 

"While definitely charging the Royal Irish Constabulary with full 
responsibility for the murders, we feel it incumbent upon us to 
counsel the people of Galway to remain calm under this terrible 
provocation. We regret that under the circumstances we cannot 
make any announcement of the exact date on which we will resume 
publication. Remember, Galway men and Galway women, the 
watchword is, KEEP COOL." 

I saw also the body, the corpse of the young Volunteer who was 
shot on the station platform. There was one bullet hole clear 
through his head. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: May I not ask you about this? 
Is it not the same case that Dr. Cotter told us about yesterday? 

A. It is the same case. I do not think Dr. Cotter was on the 
platform. I happened to be there at the time. I think he was in 
the hotel. 

Q. Do you not think that the man was running amuck, as we 
say? Was he not crazy to do that when women and children 
were about? 

A. That has happened in several different towns. So there 
must be several insane men about. 

Q. That could happen under the abnormal pressure of that 
situation. But you think that there was no provocation? 


A. No. Galway was a very quiet town, and there was no provo- 
cation or there would have been a curfew. 

Q. But it might have been done more suddenly. 

A. The idea, I believe, was to provoke the people into open 
rebellion. I imagine that from what I have said. 

In Limerick I had a rear room in the hotel, and I was awakened 
from my sleep by- the cries. "Halt"* and "Fire." I jumped from my 
bed and dressed quickly. The same cry rang out: "Halt," "Hands 
Up," "Fire." It terrified me. I looked into the court yard and 
there was nobody there. Presently I opened my door and called 
for some help. The lady clerk came and said, "Never mind. That 
is a man who was on the run, and he was caught and escaped. His 
mind is a little shattered now, and he is resting in the next room. 
He does that now all through the night. 


I think you asked me, Mr. Walsh, about the amicable relations 
between the Black-and-Tans and R. I. C? 

Senator Walsh: Yes. 

The Witness: I had the privilege of going into a prison, and 
while there, one in the prison, not incarcerated, told me that they 
had spent the previous day in watching the conduct between the 
Black-and-Tans and the R. I. C, and that there was great disorder 
within the barracks where they were staying the day before, and 
that there was a great deal of whiskey being drunk, and that caused 
open rebellion between the R. I. C. and the Black-and-Tans, and 
there was as much fighting going on inside as there was outside the 

Q. Senator Walsh: Are you at liberty to name that place? 

A. I would not be privileged to name it, because the man whom 
I mention is now on the run, and he was in the prison as well as 
in the barrack. I could give you intimate details of what was going 
on in the barrack. 

I might say that when I reported to the police on the day when 
Balbriggan was devastated, both the policeman who took my report 
and the policeman who checked it up, and the two policemen who 
came to look at the American who came in with the passport, all 
were strongly under the influence of drink. That is, their eyes 
were very bloodshot, their faces very red, the pronunciation of their 
words very guttural, and their entire attitude indicated it. The one 
who took my report was a man from England. He was not dressed 
as the other men. He did not even have on a collar, and had his 


shirt front tucked clown in careless fashion, and did not know 
anything of the places I had visited in Ireland, and knew only 
places in England where I was going. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did they smell of liquor? 

A. Yes, they did. 

Q. How many of them? 

A. There were five. 

Q. Where was this? 

A. In Dublin. 

Q. What building? 

A. The Strong Street Station. 

Q. Police station? 

A. Yes. 

Q. When you went to the police station to arrange for your 
itinerary in Ireland, you met these officers of the government, and 
it was while you were talking with them tbat you observed their 

A. Yes. 

Q. It was about what hour of the day? 

A. About three o'clock in the afternoon. One had come out of 
a side room, as if awakened from sleep, and he looked as if he was 
not in any condition to talk to anyone. 

Q. He was drunk? 

A. He was not so much drunk as in the condition of emerging 
from drinking. 


I may say that in Limerick I went down one whole street and 
went down both sides of the street counting one house after another, 
and found not one undevastated house in the whole street. It wa.« 
the street where the poor people lived, called Kerry Row. I asked 
them about the conditions on the day on which their homes were 
destroyed, and they all had a pitiable tale to tell. In Limerick the 
Black-and-Tans are still patrolling the streets in groups of eight to 
ten, and lorries were passing down the principal thoroughfares. 
iVfany homes were burned, and during the night there was a home 
bombed and burned while I Was there. 

Q. Did you find any peaceful conditions anywhere in Ireland? 

A,. Let me see. I think the most peaceful place I found was at 

Q. How many places did you visit? 

A. I visited, I think, forty or fifty towns in Ireland. 


Q. And this was the only place where you found normal con- 

A. The conditions were not normal there, hul the conditions 
were less terrorizing than in any other town I visited. It is a water- 
ing place, and there are many English officers there. 

Q. What is your nationality? 

A. My father is of English descent, and my mother, Irish. 

I have here letters from the Minister of Labor in Ireland, show- 
ing the nature of the laws as operated by the Republican forces. 
This was given to me by the Countess Markieviez, the Minister of 
Labor; it was issued a few days before I visited her. 1 1 shows how 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is it printed in Gaelic or in English? 

A. It is printed in both. 

Q. Can you leave it with us for a few hours? 

A. I can leave it. 


I was going to say that I have more to tell you from Balbriggan. 
I was in the room while the testimony was given. But I went out to 
Balbriggan the following day, the day before Patrick Lynch wa> 
killed in a Dublin hotel. I went out, but I was so terrified by the 
appearances — it seemed to me that hundreds of Black-and-Tans were 
on the roads going out — wonderful military activity. As you ap- 
proached the town, you met the people fleeing, with sometimes 
pathetic amounts of baggage in their hands. Sometimes they were 
taking all they had with them. I met many women with children 
huddled about their skirts, fleeing from the town. 1 witnessed all 
the burned buildings that have been spoken about this morning. 
The terror of the roads is quite indescribable! 

I The witness was thereupon excused. I 

Senator Walsh (presiding) : Air. Hackett, will you be here until 
half -past two? 

Mr. Hackett: Yes. 

Senator Walsh: We shall adjourn, then, until half-pasl two. 

(1:15 P. M.) 


(2:35 P. M.) 

Chairman Howe: The session will please come to order. The 
first witness this afternoon is Air. Francis Hackett of the Neiv 
Republic. New York. (The witness takes the stand. I 


Q. Mr. Hackett, will you please state your professional relations 
and anything else about yourself that you desire, as a preliminary 
statement of fact? 

A. First of all, I think I had better state that I am an Irishman 
born. I have been in this country since 1900. I think I was about 
eighteen when I came here. And I have lived here continuously 
since, with the exception of one year. I was a year in Ireland in 
1912 to 1913. I went home for personal reasons. My father was 
ill, and I stayed with him as long as he lived. Then I came back 
to this country and became an editor of the New Republic, and 
stayed in this country until last May. My wife, Miss Toksvig, and 
myself went then to England and then to Denmark for five weeks, 
and reached Ireland in July, — towards the end of July, and stayed 
there until the end of September. We were then eight weeks in 
Ireland. I went to Ireland for two reasons: one was to see my 
own people, and the other was to write a few articles for the New 
York World and to make an investigation as much all over the 
country as possible under the circumstances. As I said, we stayed 
there for eight weeks, going over the ground in the south and north 
and west of Ireland, and, of course, in Dublin a great deal. 

Q. How much country did you 

cover : 

A. I should say we covered roughly about two-thirds of the 
country. We went to my home town, which is a small place, Kil- 
kenny. We went from Kilkenny to Waterford, and from Waterford 
to Drogheda, and from Drogheda to Cork, and to Kerry for a few 
days, and then to Limerick, and then to Dublin, and then to Bel- 
fast, and then to Galway, and back to Dublin and Kilkenny; and 
then we spent several days in Londonderry before we sailed. 

Q. All this time you were gathering material for the work you 
were doing for the New York World? 

A. Exactly. 

Q. And you are also the author of a book on Ireland? 

A. Yes. 


When I went home in 1913 I was particularly interested in the 
economic conditions in Ireland. I thought that the Irish question 
was largely a democratic economic question, — the question of the 


struggle of lower classes to come up. In other words, the very 
much same sort of struggle that was going on in England, but com- 
plicated by the fact that the ruling class, the shell, was not only 
different economically but also different racially. I made up my 
mind while I was there to collect all the material 1 could that bore 
on that subject, and then to write a book on Ireland after my return 
to America. At first I thought of calling the book "What America 
Could Teach Ireland." I thought there was a great deal to be 
learned from this country in practical ways as far as education was 
concerned, as far as self-help is concerned, the organization of 
laborers, the organization of educational bodies, and that sort of 
thing. I did not get the book completed until the war came on, and 
a lot of preconceptions that I had about the possibilities of self-help 
and the unimportance of politics went. I became convinced that it 
did matter what political relations you had and what the sover- 
eignty of a country was. After we went into the war, I determined 
that since Ireland was a small nation in the same sort of plight with 
a great many other small nations, I made a great effort to get out 
my book. And I got out this book, which is about four hundred 
pages, in 1914. I got it out because I came to believe that the thing 
that the Irish had to do was to get a working relationship in Ireland, 
and in order to do so they must have a measure of self-government 
in Ireland. At the time I believed that the best measure they could 
get was a measure of dominion home rule. I wrote the book with 
that as a conclusion; the helpful thing for Ireland was not to get 
an economically workable solution like the Home Rule Bill of 1914, 
but an economically workable solution like the Dominion Acts of 
Canada and Australia and South Africa. In 1919, after observing 
the situation, I came to the conclusion that the British were not in 
a position to give the Irish that solution. There was no prospect 
for a solution along this line; that the real vitality in Ireland was a 
vitality that demanded a different solution — a solution along the 
lines laid down by President Wilson for the squaring of the troubles 
on the continent of Europe. Sir Horace Plunkett, who came to this 
country in 1919, asked me if I would be the representative for a 
new paper he was about to start called The New Statesman. I made 
up my mind that it would be against the will of the majority of the 
Irish people to advocate the solution he represented, and I deter- 
mined to publish a new edition of my book stating that the Irish 
problem solution was to give the Irish the same sort of autonomy 
that the American Republic achieved in 1776. In 1914 I wrote in 


the New Republic that the English were taking a course of action 
that any Englishman would see was leading to an armed crisis. 
Certainly it was apparent to any man who had studied the Irish 
situation that something like that was bound to occur. 

When I went to Ireland, I went not only to investigate the facts, 
but also to interpret them. I saw the situation very like the situation 
in Finland that we have long been familiar with; like the situation 
in Bohemia, the Jugo-Slav situation, the Schleswig situation, the 
Armenian situation, the Alsace-Lorraine situation, — the situation of 
a people that had long been imperialized struggling to get for 
themselves conditions of self-development that they could not get 
without a new constitution, — a new constitution that they only could 
hope to get by securing independence. I was very instructed in that 
field by the attitude that we ourselves took in this country toward 
similar struggles. On my paper, the New Republic, we had two 
members of our staff who went to work for the United States Gov- 
ernment after we went into the war in 1917, and their particular job 
was this: they went into Military Intelligence, and they were dis- 
patched by our government to England. And there they worked out 
in conjunction with certain Englishmen a policy by which they 
would get information over to the Czecho-Slovaks, who were fight- 
ing for Austria, by which they would persuade the Czecho-Slovaks 
not to fight for Austria but to desert the cause of Austria, and to 
assert their own legitimate claims to freedom by deserting Austria. 
I bring this point in for this purpose: everything depends in these 
situations of nationalism on what you mean by law and order and 
what you mean by lawlessness. When a man like Sir Roger Case- 
ment, for example, went, to the Irish soldiers who were in the British 
army and said the same thing to them that the editors of the New 
Republic said to the Czecho-Slovaks by sending them similar mes- 
sages tied to balloons that were timed to come down at the right 
time and in the right places, Sir Roger Casement was tried and exe- 
cuted for treason for that sort of propaganda. But we of the United 
States saw that justice for Czecho-Slovakia and other small nations 
on the continent of Europe meant that they could not be free unless 
they broke away from an empire that was sacrificing them. 


I conceived that there was some such sort of situation in Ireland, 
and in order to interpret the facts, one had to find out what one 
meant by law and order. And I went to Ireland to answer two 


questions for myself: 1 was told in London that the Irish were kill- 
ing police, and that the Irish were being lawless, and that the law- 
lessness was in the hands of a band of young men who were not 
responsible, and that that lawless situation in Ireland must be met 
with force. — by the use of military force. I was told by certain 
Englishmen in conversation that that was the real interpretation ol 
the Irish situation. The manager of Cook's bank in London told 
me that that was the true solution of the Irish situation. I met an 
old man on the street whose bag I carried (although at first he was 
a bit sceptical and thought I might be a pickpocket, yet he final I y 
did take a chance, for the bag was heavy), and he told me that that 
was the solution of the Irish question. I found that that was the 
general idea in England; on the one hand, a band of extremists who 
were excitable and did not know what they wanted and who were 
killing the police who were striving to maintain law and order; and 
on the other hand a band of noble, heroic police seeking to suppress 
this lawlessness. And I went to Ireland to find out if that was the 

I have been here for two days and heard the testimony of various 
kinds covering what happened in Dublin and Thurles and Balbrig- 
gan, and perhaps I could help out if I stated other facts. 

Q. Chairman Howe: I would like to have you state whether you 
found those facts general in Ireland, and also tell what you think 
should be done. 

Senator Walsh: May I interrupt you to inquire about your re- 

A. May I tell you exactly what my religion is? I was born in 
the Roman Catholic Church. I have a brother in the clergy who is 
now stationed in Limerick, who is a hot Sinn Feiner. but who, din- 
ing trouble in Limerick, saved the lives of three English officers. 

Q. I do not want to be personal at all, but I want to weigh your 
evidence by way of your religious convictions. 

A. I formed a new r religion when I came to this country. I am 
a man of religious feeling, but 1 am a member of no church. I have 
not been inside a church, except for curiosity, for twenty years. 

Q. Did you have Sinn Fein sympathies when you went to lie- 

A. I have always sympathized with Sinn Fein as an aspiration. 
I have never believed it was practicable until 1919. In 1919, when 
Sir Horace Plunkett asked me to be the representative of his paper. 
I had to make a choice, and 1 decided that Sinn Fein was practical. 


and was the only healthy moral thing for the Irish to act upon. 
They really wanted independence, in my belief, and they had to be 
honest with themselves. There was no use saying they wanted a 
half-measure when they wanted independence. 

Senator Walsh: Excuse the interruption. I merely wanted to 
get the background. 


The Witness: First, when I went into Ireland I found the Royal 
Irish Constabulary. They were invented by Peel in 1820. There 
was trouble in Ireland a hundred years ago just as there is today, — 
trouble in Cork and Belfast and Dublin and elsewhere. The gov- 
ernment was authorized by Peel to put the military into Ireland. 
If you made a chart of the police stations in Ireland, you would find 
that if you had a gridiron with spaces ten miles square and covering 
Ireland, you would find a police station in the center of each space 
of the gridiron. Sometimes the police stations are in hamlets of a 
few homes, and sometimes in a town like Kilkenny you will find 
forty or fifty policemen. The number of policemen in Scotland is 
about three to four thousand. In Ireland there are from thirty lo 
forty thousand police. In population the two countries are about 
the same size: Scotland has 4,700,000 and Ireland 4,300,000. Ire- 
land, then, has ten times as many police to the population as has 
Scotland. And this in time of peace when crimes like manslaughter 
and murder have always been less in Ireland than in Scotland. The 
police were put in Ireland for a political purpose. They were really 
the advance-guard of imperialism. They were there not because 
there was work for them to do, but because there might be work 
for them to do, largely in regard to public opinion. Three-fourths 
of the police are Catholics, but the men were picked for other rea- 
sons. Oxford and Cambridge men were preferred for the police. 
The police were always semi-armed,— bayonets on their belts and 
batons. And they always had in the barracks carbines, and were 
drilled by the military in the barracks yards. They were recruited 
from the Irish peasantry. If the farm could not support two or 
three men in Kerry or Tipperary or Cork, the boy would go into the 
police. It was never looked upon as a very desirable occupation, 
but if there was no work to do on the farm, the boys would go into 
the police. 



After 1916 and the uprising in Dublin a new situation occurred 
with regard to the police that is very important to grasp. When the 
rising took place, it only took place in Dublin and in Galway. But 
it was firmly believed that there were plans for a rising all over 
Ireland. The week after the rising, troops were brought into Ire- 
land. They poured into the country in great numbers. There were 
a thousand in Kilkenny. The military immediately got into touch 
with the police and said: "Who are the people here who are sus- 
pected of being Sinn Feiners, or people of independent opinion, or 
dangerous people?"' The head constable in my own town of Kil- 
kenny gave a list to the military of people who had ever given him 
any trouble of any kind. In that little town, over fifty young men 
were deported, young men who belonged to Sinn Fein and others 
who believed in the Republican movement philosophically. It was 
a philosophical belief rather than an armed program. About two 
thousand people were deported from Ireland to detention camps in 
England. Those men went with a certain feeling toward the police, 
and then when they came back they were down on the police books 
as radicals and dangerous men. And then the fight for conscription 
began in Ireland, and it became necessary to make a case out for 
conscription and also for the attitude of Ireland in regard to Ger- 
many. And so the discovery was made that there was in Ireland a 
German plot. In 1917 the Irish convention was called by Lloyd 
George, and there was an amnesty. And in 1918 there were a large 
number of men arrested and kept in England without trial for about 
ten months and then released. In 1917 and 1918 the police became 
very anxious in Ireland about the people in case they should resist 


It was particularly important because there was a contrast in the 
treatment between the people in the south of Ireland and the people 
in the north of Ireland. If I may dwell on this question for about 
three minutes I think it will illuminate the attitude of the Irish 
people toward law and order. In 1913 when I was home there was 
a rebellion going on in Ireland of a very respectable character. It 
was headed by Lord Londonderry, Lord Willoughby de Broke, the 
Duke of Abercorn, Sir Edward Carson, Lord Birkenhead, General 


Hackett Payne, who is now the military commander in Ulster, and 
a large number of other gentlemen from the House of Lords in 
England, and other persons who might be called by an unsym- 
pathetic person members of the Junker class. These men had or- 
ganized rebellion against the British Government because there was 
in process of being passed by Parliament a Home Rule Bill for Ire- 
land; the point of this rebellion by these gentlemen Junkers was 
that Ulster was to be brought under the Home Rule bill, and thev 
did not want that to be brought about. They wanted Ulster inde- 
pendent. A projected independence for Ulster was arranged by Sir 
Edward Carson, and a virtual revolution declared in 1914. Machine 
guns and rifles were imported from Germany, and — 

Q. Senator Walsh: Before autumn of 1914? 

A. Late in 1913 and early in 1914. This effort to bring arms to 
Ireland was going on all the time, and was very successful because 
the military authorities did not try to stop it. 

Q. You began to utter the sentence that the British officers ab- 
sented themselves from the docks, and by their absence allowed the 
revolutionists in the north of Ireland to receive arms and munitions 
from Germany, did you not? 

A. Exactly. 

Q. Who were the leaders in this movement in the north of Ire 

A. The leaders were Sir Edward Carson, Mr. Bonar Law, F. E. 
Smith, who is now Lord Birkenhead, Lord Chancellor of England. 
Lord Londonderry, who is now dead, and various members of the 
House of Lords. The chief recruiting officer of that lot in London 
was Lord Roberts. They raised large sums of money. They raised 
five thousand dollars for Red Cross w r ork — at least they raised it on 
paper. They had a huge parade in Belfast that was attended by 
newspaper reporters from all over the world; also by reporters from 
Germany, who wanted to see how big the revolution was going to be. 

Q. What was the organization called? 

A. The Ulster Volunteers. By the way, I must point out that at 
this time there was a Liberal government in England. The Liberal 
government almost got to the point of arresting Sir Edward Carson; 
but it was recently disclosed by Colonel Reppington in his biography 
of the war that when the arrest of Sir Edward Carson was brought 
up by the Liberal government, the King absolutely prohibited the 

I to 

0. What was the charge against him? 

A. Treason against the Crown. Sir Edward Carson said: "There 
is no need to inform me that what I am doing is anarchy. I know 
it." And he was very well informed ahout it. for he knew that the 
British army would not move against Lister. Orders were given to 
troops to move from Kildare to I lster. and they refused to move. 
Certain resignations were taken from the army on that occasion. 
One of the resigners was Lord French, who is now Lord Lieutenant 
of Ireland: also General Hackett Payne, who was then recruiting 
for the army, and is now in command of the government troops in 
Munster. You might not remember that some months later Sir 
Edward Carson was put into the British Cabinet. 


The young men in the south of Ireland said: "Now the north ol 
Ireland is armed. We have never been allowed to have arms in the 
south of Ireland, except for Held sports, — shotguns and so forth." 
Permits were given by the local authorities, the resident magis- 
trates, for sporting guns and rifles. — I imagine to shoot rooks with, 
and things like that. The lists of people who had such guns were 
known to the police, and usually hung up in the post-office. They 
were usually rich people. The people of the south of Ireland made 
up their minds that if the north of Ireland were to be armed, that 
they were to be armed too. Perhaps it was a reprehensible thing, 
from my humanitarian point of view, a very bad thing; but perhaps 
it was human. The moment the south of Ireland began to import 
arms, the government moved. The last day of August, 1914, a 
yacht brought arms to a place called Howth outside of Dublin, and 
landed arms to a body called the National Volunteers. The 

Q. Senator Walsh: The British troops? 


A. The British troops and the police were sent to intercept those 
arms, and they failed to get there in time to intercept them. Thev 
came back to the city of Dublin from Howth. a seven miles" walk. 
The people came out from the terrible slums of Dublin, and I think 
they must have jeered at the soldiers. Some said they also threw 


stones. There was a good deal of feeling against the soldiers. The 
soldiers fired into the crowd and killed four and wounded about 
sixty. This was in the week before the declaration of war against 
Germany. The young Sinn Fein men who were running the three 
or four papers that were allowed to be published said: "This is the 
beginning of the end in Ireland. Blood has been shed by the Brit- 
ish soldiers." There was an inquest after this killing that was a 
whitewash. The regiment was moved away. The young Sinn 
Feiners said: "We have no sympathy with the war to be fought by 
men who have just been killing civilians on the streets of Dublin 
with only very slight provocation." 


Then you have got the situation developing in 1916 and the use 
of the police for political purposes. They were used to root out all 
the young men of advanced ideas, and in many cases the women, 
and to put all those who had any idea of freedom for Ireland in 
the place of criminals. You got a contrast all the time there be- 
tween the heroes of Poland and the people of Czecho-Slovakia and 
the people in Schleswig and Finland and Alsace-Lorraine who had 
no part in this war, — who were going to be given their freedom; 
the contrast between them and the people of Ireland, who had simi- 
lar claims and who were regarded as criminals. 


Q. Senator Walsh: For the sake of the record, will you state 
how far and to what extent the Home Rule Bill had reached at the 
outbreak of the war? 

A. There was no dominion home rule bill. There was pending 
a bill to give Ireland a sort of qualified home rule. 

Q. That bill was accepted by Redmond and that party, but not 
acceptable to the Ulsterites? 

A. Yes, not acceptable to the Ulsterites. It had passed the House 
of Lords, and the King was to sign it on September 14, 1914. He 
signed it, and it was to become law for Ireland. But a compromise 
was reached by which it was to be held up and not become law until 
an amendment was passed making some provision for Ulster. 

Q. How can a bill that had been passed and signed be held up? 

A. Senator Walsh, the British constitution is an unwritten docu- 
ment, depending upon the interpretation of lawyers. The idea was 


that they had suspended this law for one year, and that this amend- 
ment was to be made. 

Q. The bill was enacted, but the administrative forces refused, 
or by agreement did not provide machinery to carry it out? 

A. Exactly. That is the legal situation. The bill has since been 
repealed. As part of the Home Rule Bill now before the House of 
Commons, this Home Rule Bill is to be repealed. 

Q. Was it apparent that during all that time in 1914 that this 
bill was to be passed by the House of Lords? 

A. The bill was never passed by the House of Lords. But in 

Q. Yes, I know. It was passed twice by the House of Commons, 
which made the action of the House of Lords unnecessary. 

A. Yes, in 1910 a Veto Bill was passed that if the House of 
Lords rejected a bill passed by the House of Commons twice, it 
could be passed over their heads. 

The people say in Ireland: Do you want Dominion Home Rule 
in Ireland? They say: Suppose we do agree to accept Dominion 
Home Rule, and that bill is introduced in the House of Commons, 
and it is then passed after many amendments to it. It then goes to 
the House of Lords, and is rejected. It is then passed by the House 
of Commons and given back to the House of Lords, and is then 
rejected. Then many amendments are made, and it then goes back 
to the House of Lords. And then it is, after four years, again really 
enacted by the Commons and goes to the King for his signature, 
and afterwards put on the statute books. And then there will be 
other details and delays until, they say, perhaps bv that time our 
great grandchildren will be interested in it. And they say: We 
have no interest in a Home Rule Bill along those lines. 

When I went to Ireland I went to get an answer to these ques- 
tions: Is it true, as they say in London, that the Irish are killing 
policemen, and that the Irish who are killing policemen are a small 
band of extremists? I went all over the ground that we heard 
covered this morning. It seems to me that what was said is per- 
fectly in accord with the facts. 


Now, I went to a number of places in Ireland, first of all with 
the preoccupation of finding out the facts about military rule: how 
far does military rule exist in Ireland? I tried first of all to find 
out how many troops were there in Ireland. It is generally be- 


lieved that the number of troops in this country would be three to 
four hundred thousand. 

Senator Walsh: Before the war about one hundred fifty thou- 
sand. Our new bill provides for much more than that. 

The Witness: In Ireland, which is a country of four million 
three hundred thousand people, the British government said there 
were about fifty thousand troops. Mr. Arthur Griffith, the acting 
president of the Irish Republic, said he could prove there were one 
hundred thirty thousand troops stationed in Ireland. In addition to 
those, there were around thirty thousand of the Irish police, less 
about one thousand that had resigned, plus about a thousand re- 
cruited Black-and-Tans who had the status of sergeants and a large 
body of Black-and-Tans who came in with the ordinary status of 
constable, — perhaps six or seven thousand. So you got in all a 
body hovering around one hundred fifty thousand, as large as the 
ordinary peace establishment in the United States, which has a 
population of one hundred million; that is to say, twenty-five times 
as many per person as would normally be here before the war. 

Q. Chairman Howe: That was true when you left? 

A. Before I left I saw Arthur Griffith, late in September. I 
need not tell you that it is impossible to find out from the British 
Government how many troops there are in Ireland. They convert 
homes and public buildings of all sorts into barracks, so that it is 
impossible to tell how many there are. Before the war Ireland was 
a great training ground for British troops, — perhaps twenty-five 
thousand always in training there. 

I am just trying to give the first crude aspects of British rule. 
Perhaps it would be more interesting to the Commission if I an- 
swered questions which would be given rather than relate my own 


Q. Commissioner Addams: I think it would be interesting to 
know how many policemen were killed. 

A. I wanted to find out why the policemen were killed and how 
many were killed. The numbers given in the British House of Com- 
mons are about one hundred twenty killed during the last few years 
in Ireland. The situation may be illuminated if I hand in a pam- 
phlet called "The Two Years of British Atrocities in Ireland." That 
is the pamphlet compiled by the Sinn Feiners giving the numbers 
of civilians killed in Ireland before a single policeman was killed 


in Ireland. In 1910 no policeman was killed in Ireland. Ab I 
understand it, in 1917-1918 there were about a dozen murder- 
charged to the police and about twenty thousand raids, a number 
of w r hich are detailed here, the suppression of newspapers, and so 
forth, all of which you have heard described. 

Q. Senator Walsh: All of this, as T understand it. was before 
the killing of any police officer? 

A. \es. sir, previous to the killing of any police. Then :he 
killing of police began. Sometimes they have been ambushed and 
killed. On one occasion a policeman was killed going into chapel 
to mass. On another occasion a policeman has been killed on patrol 
formation. On one occasion a patrol came into contact with a 
small group of armed Sinn Feiners. They fired, and fell back into 
a ditch, and the young Sinn Feiners returned the fire. These police- 
men were killed fighting. Some policemen have resigned from the 
force and then been killed. One was killed at Oranmore in Sep- 
tember after he had resigned. 

Q. Is it the intimation that the police officer who resigns and is 
killed is killed by the British authorities, or by the Sinn Feiners? 

A. That i* rather interesting. I have never heard that imputa- 
tion until today. But I can give the case specifically where Black- 
and-Tans have called at the home of a man who has resigned and 
have brought him out of his home and flogged him mercilessly. So 
that that explanation seems to me to be plausible. On the other 
hand, I heard of this case, where the policeman wa* killed by mis- 

So I went to the Sinn Feiners and said: "Why are these police 
killed? Why was Allan Bell killed in Dublin, that old magis- 
trate?" Certain Sinn Feiners said: "Oh, it is all done by impetuous 
young people." But as I got down into contact with responsible 
men, they said, — many of them said: "This killing of policemen is 
a necessary act of justice. As far as we know, no policeman has 
been killed who has not been tried. If a policeman commits mur- 
der or something similar to murder, he is given a trial without him- 
self being present, and he is punished." I asked for instances, and 
I was given the instance of Lord Mayor MacCurtain.' I was told by 
several Sinn Feiners — it may be folklore but I give it for what it 
is worth — I was told by responsible men that the policemen who 
killed or carried out the murder of Lord Mayor MacCurtain were 
numbered; that one was killed on his way into a chapel in Cork, ami 
three more had been killed around Cork; and that another remained 
to be killed, and that his name was Swanzy, and that he had left 


Cork to go to Lisburn; and a few weeks later policeman Swanzy 
was killed as he was going out of church in Lisburn. And in re- 
taliation the Orangemen of Lisburn set fire to the Catholic section 
and did damage to the extent of two or three hundred thousand 
dollars. That I give you as an instance of a police murder. 

Q. The Sinn Feiners declare that they had a trial and heard 
testimony and were satisfied that these police had committed the 
murder of Mayor MacCurtain, and that they had pronounced the 
death sentence against them? 

A. Exactly. I went to see a very splendid young man whom I 
would not wish to identify because it would be dangerous for him, 
but a man in a very responsible public position, and I asked him 
about the killing of police. I asked him, "Why did they kill Wilson 
in Wexford?" And he said, "That man was a proper ruffian," and 
he gave me a number of instances of things that this man had done 
which seemed criminal and brutal in his life. And I said, "Do you 
know any other instances of men like that who have been killed?" 
And he said, "Most of the men who have been killed have been 
guilty of murder." And I said, "Do you know of any other instances 
in your district?" And he said, "A young man works for me, and 
he said the other day when he came in, T have seen the policeman 
in town who killed my brother, and I am going to kill him.' " And 
his employer said: "You are a member of the Irish Volunteers, and 
you mean to say that you are going to take the law into your own 
hands? You know the proper course to pursue. If you have any 
charge to make against that policeman, you know where to send it 
and you know what action will be taken." He prevailed upon the 
young man to get out of the way of the police; and the police got 
wind of the fact that this particular policeman was identified, and 
he left town. By these instances you get a practical illustration of 
the fact that the men who have tried to break down the will of Sinn 
Fein, to break clown the will of the Irish as expressed in two elec- 
tions, have not succeeded. And you inevitably get a clash between 
these men and the Sinn Feiners — the Irish Volunteers. 


The English policy in this question is very important. The Eng- 
lish maintain that they are holding up law and order in Ireland. 
They maintain that all these instances that you have heard about in 
the last two days are instances to be explained by rational proc- 
esses, and that they stand for law and order. The results of my 


investigation are this: the English maintain that they are standing 
for law and order, and that the Sinn Feiners are a band of extrem- 
ists; but at the same time they are pursuing a policy of provocation 
and assassinations and murders, and make no effort whatever to 
bring to book those members of their organization who commit 
murders and assassinations, and are making every effort to throw 
the onus of disorder and lawlessness on Sinn Fein; that Sinn Fein, 
on the other hand, wishes to have peace in Ireland, to have their 
own government perfected, but are constantly running into the law- 
lessness and oppression of the old police, the Black-and-Tans, and 
the military in Ireland. 

And I would like, if I may, in relation to this to show the sequel 
to the Balbriggan affair as brought out today. I made no investiga- 
tion in Balbriggan myself. I made an investigation in Gal way and 
Dublin. But the sequel in Balbriggan is this: I wish to quote Sir 
Hamar Greenwood, the British Chief Secretary for Ireland, on the 
subject of Balbriggan and the inquiry into Balbriggan. There was 
an effort made to get the House of Commons at the end of October, 
two weeks ago — no. I guess about three weeks ago, — to appoint a 
commission to investigate and find out what actually happened at 
Balbriggan. And the House of Commons voted to refuse this move. 
They declined to appoint a commission to investigate. But the 
phrases that illumine the state of mind of Sir Hamar Greenwood 
are important. He said : "I admit that nineteen houses were de- 
stroyed and others damaged; that four public houses were destroyed, 
and one hosiery factory that employs two hundred hands was also 
destroyed. I admit it is difficult to defend the destruction of that 
factory." And he was asked if two men were not also killed. He 
said: "Two men were also killed." And Sir Arthur Balfour said: 
"Murder!" And he said: "If the right honorable gentleman gets 
any satisfaction out of it, I would say, murder." He admitted that 
the murder was not the act of irresponsible men, that it was organ- 
ized ; that it was the work of men who went from a barrack seven 
miles away; and he said: "I have myself made an inquiry into this 
case, and I will tell the House what I have found: that some hun- 
dred to one hundred fifty men went to Balbriggan to avenge the 
murder of a comrade murdered in cold blood; and I find that it is 
impossible out of those one hundred fifty men to find out who did 
the deed, who did the burning; and I have had the most careful pos- 
sible investigation made." In other words, the British Government 
is confronted with a situation not dissimilar to that which con- 


fronted President Roosevelt at Brownsville. But where President 
Roosevelt took the regiment who were there and investigated and 
carried out the results of this investigation, the British Government 
says: We know the regiment that went there, and we know that they 
burned down nineteen houses and killed two men, and all this; but 
we are not able to push it further. Therefore, nothing will be done 
about what was done at Balbriggan. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Who is Sir Hamar Greenwood? 

A. He is that member of the British Cabinet responsible for Ire- 
land. He is the Chief Secretary for Ireland. 

Q. And this was the speech he made in the House of Commons 
when a motion was made to have an investigation made of Bal- 
briggan ? 


A. Exactly. And my object in bringing that up is this: that 
while nominally England stands for law and order in Ireland, they 
are really out to crush what they think is revolution ; and when they 
run into something that they think does not fit into the categories 
of democratic government and decency, they simply say that they 
are powerless, and decline to carry out an investigation, — such an 
investigation as would be carried out in any other civilized country 
where there was an established government. Thirty creameries have 
been burned down, and Sir Hamar Greenwood was confronted with 
the evidence of the burning down of these creameries; that uniformed 
men have gone out in lorries; that they have been seen; and they 
have burned down the creameries. And he is unable to act because 
he has seen no evidence: "I have never seen a tittle of evidence to 
prove that the armed forces of the Crown have destroyed creameries." 
Well, Sir Horace Plunkett and Mr. George Russell have tried to put 
evidence in his hands that the armed forces of the Crown have de- 
stroyed creameries. I think it would make it clear if I might read 
a letter written by Sir Horace Plunkett on the twenty-sixth of 
October: "Both Houses of Parliament and the public have been 
completely misled as to the destruction of creameries and other 
property of cooperative societies in Ireland, and in all seriousness 
I am compelled to charge the Government with suppression of the 
truth. During the past six months a correspondence upon this 
subject has been carried on between the Irish Agricultural Organ- 
ization Society and myself, as its President, on the one hand, and 
the civil government and the military authority in Ireland on the 


other. On Wednesday last, in the reprisals debate in the Com- 
mons, Sir Hamar Greenwood selected out of this mass of letters a 
single extract from a letter of his own to me. In this extract he 
deplored and condemned 'these outrages,' promised to try and 
prevent them, and to punish those responsible. He adverted to 
'the outstanding difficulty . . . that the sufferers have been 
unable or unwilling to come forward with evidence,' and invited me 
to provide it. He then told the House that he had 'never seen a 
tittle of evidence to prove that the servants of the Crown had de- 
stroyed these creameries.' This morning I was told by a distin- 
guished member of the House of Lords that Lord Curzon had on 
the same day made an identical statement — of course, from the 
material supplied to him.' He quoted the same extract from the 
official correspondence, and then gave it as 'a curious corroboration' 
of the innocence of the servants of the Crown that I had failed to 
supply 'evidence of any sort.' 

"Space forbids the production in your columns of the evidence 
in the possession of the Government, partly from the records of their 
own courts, partly furnished by us. It will suffice here to say that 
the unfortunate victims of these outrages have only one means of 
proving their loss. They have to bring suit under the Malicious 
Injuries Acts before the County Court Judge at Quarter Sessions. 
If the judge is satisfied that the injury is malicious, even if it is 
proved beyond all possibility of doubt, as it was in a trial which I 
personally attended, that servants of the Crown destroyed the prop- 
erty, he has to charge the amount of compensation awarded (in 
this case £12,349) on the rates. In other words, the victims of the 
outrages, and other innocent persons, have to pay for damage in- 
flicted upon the community by the guardians of the law. 

"Everybody in Ireland knows, and the Government knows, that 
these acts are deliberate reprisals by servants of the Crown. Unless 
discipline has hopelessly broken down, the Government could 
easily identify the criminals. It is scandalous that for lack of this 
identification such a crying injustice should go unredressed. We 
have asked for an open and impartial inquiry in Dublin, where 
witnesses can be protected. To say that this would be a mere con- 
flict of perjury is untrue as regards the evidence we are ready to 
produce, and is not complimentary to the peace officers of the Gov- 
ernment. Redress in this case is urgently demanded far more on 
account of the position and influence of the agricultural cooperative 
movement in Ireland than for the direct and indirect restriction in 
food production, which is no light matter. As I write, a telegram 
reaches me reporting the burning of vet another oreamerv." 


The Witness: I would like to leave this letter to show the situation 
they are in in Ireland. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Just give us that citation, please. 

A. Sir Horace Plunkett, writing to the London Times, printed 
on the twenty-sixth of October of this year. There is an editorial 
on the same subject in this issue of The Irish Homestead, which 
reprints the letter, by George W. Russell. 


There is evidence that there is justice going on in Ireland from 
the Irish side. Sir Hamar Greenwood himself said that courts are 
going on in Ireland conducted by the Irish people. Not so much 
can be said for the Government courts in Ireland, even where they 
have not been superseded by courts martial. In the north of Ire- 
land, a man found with a revolver is fined two-and-six-pence or 
three shillings. But in the south of Ireland I have found no case 
where a man found with arms is given less than two years' im- 
prisonment. 1 


Worse than the assertion that the courts-martial have the full 
confidence of the Irish people are the constant assertions that the 
British Government is working in Ireland in the interests of the 
whole people. I would like to give you the analysis of the vote 
in 1918 and in 1920 to bring out the point whether the de facto 
government of Sinn Fein has the confidence of the people or has 
not. I think this material is absolutely trustworthy and very closely 
analyzed. It shows that the Sinn Fein party secured nearly 75 per 
cent, of the seats on the county councils at the last election. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What election is this? 

A. June, 1920. The total number of county council seats in 
Ireland is given as 699. Of those county council seats, Sinn Fein 
secured 71.9 per cent.; Sinn Fein and Labor, who work together, 
secured between them 80 per cent. Putting in with them the Ulster 
Nationalists, who can be put in as believing in self-government for 
Ireland, the number of seats won is 84 per cent. 2 Of course that 

1 The death penalty may now be imposed for possession of arms or 

2 Of the 699 seats, 612 were won by candidates opposed to union with 
England, and 87 seats were won by Unionists. 


is not unanimity- I personally found no unanimity in Ireland on 
the subject of Sinn Fein. But what I did find was this: that all 
the class of Unionists in the south of Ireland that were descended 
from the landlord class, and who, until the question of landlordism 
had been settled in favor of peasant proprietorship, had been all 
dead against independence, I found that these men were now all 
in favor of home rule. In the Irish Times for September, a con- 
servative paper. I found at least two hundred letters from very 
conservative gentlemen saying that independence was the only way 
out. If you desire, I can get a collection of those letters, because 
it seems to me that they are real evidence of opinion in the south 
of Ireland. Those gentry constitute the magistrates and the upper 
class, so to speak. The great majority of these people have resigned 
from their offices, men like Sir Henry Grattan Bellew, Sir Algernon 
Coote, Sir Thomas Stafford, and other men, a list of whom I can 
give you. These men are all deputy lieutenants. These men all 
resigned while I was in Ireland. And when I was in Dublin, there 
was a conference of six hundred men and women of this particular 
class of Unionist persuasion who came together to plead for do- 
minion home rule. Lord Shaftesbury, a prominent Ulsterman, also 
pleads for dominion home rule. 

Q. And until recently these men were all against it? 

A. While these men were all landlords, their interests were all 
against home rule. But now, since they have settled down in Ire- 
land, their interests are with the people. Many of them have said 
to me they had just as soon have Sinn Fein government as not. 
Many of them go to the Sinn Fein courts. A big merchant in Cork, 
called J. C. Dowdall, who had just come back from a delegation 
that had gone to Lloyd George — 

Q. What nationality? 

A. A Cork Protestant Irishman. He told me that a relative of 
his had for months tried to get a land settlement from the British 
Government and had failed; and in a few weeks he got the whole 
question settled by the Sinn Fein courts. Many of them have gone 
to the Sinn Fein courts to get them justice, and in many cases the 
courts have leaned backwards to give them justice. 

Here is a list of county councils and urban councils and other 
bodies that have declared their allegiance not to Britain, but to 
Dail Eireann. And I will put in here the analysis of the vote in 
1918, the object of which is to show that Sinn Fein is not a small 
body of extremists, but is 80 per cent, of the people of Ireland, 
who have so declared themselves in the election of 1918, and have 
reiterated that decision in the elections of 1920. 


Q. What per cent, of the county councils have renounced alle- 
giance to the British Government and are now doing business with 
the Sinn Fein government? 

A. I think all the county councils outside Ulster. 

Q. How many is that? 

A. There are thirty-two altogether, 1 and outside of Ulster I 
think that twenty-six have submitted themselves totally to the Sinn 
Fein government. 

Q. Of the total number of town councils and urban councils and 
county councils, and all the bodies chosen by the people to manage 
their affairs, how many now recognize British authority? 

A. I think that outside the six or four counties in the northwest 
of Ulster there are practically no public bodies in the south of 
Ireland that recognize the British Government. But there are mi- 
nority representatives who believe in the British Government on a 
great many of these bodies — men of property who still believe that 
the Sinn Fein policy is not desirable. 

I do not seem to have succeeded anywhere in giving evidence on 
military rule, and I would like very much to go ahead on whatever 
lines you would suggest. 


Q. Commissioner Maurer: You have been in the north of 

A. Yes. 

Q. Do you know anything about the industries there? In other 
words, in the north of Ireland there are great textile industries. 
Have you investigated anything among the workers there — what the 
standard of living is, under what conditions the women work, and 
are there any labor unions there, and what influence is brought to 
bear by the large employers upon these workers to keep them di- 
vided on religious prejudices and to keep them from organizing 
into industrial organizations? Do you know anything about any 
of these questions? 

A. I think I know something. Yes, I went in Belfast to one of 
the factories, and had a long talk with the employer, and I have 

1 While there are 32 counties in Ireland, there are 33 county councils, 
Tipperary being divided into North and South constituencies. Of the nine 
counties in Ulster, only four (Antrim, Armagh, Derry, and Down) elected 
a majority of Unionist councillors. None of the 24 county councils outside 
of Ulster went Unionist. In fact, of the 510 seats on these councils, only 
three were won bv Unionists, 


studied to a certain extent government reports on the condition 
of industries in Belfast. I think it is generally admitted that the 
standard of wages in Belfast is especially low, because in house- 
holds the men usually work in the shipyards and in higher branches 
of the textile industry, and the women work in very low occupa- 
tions: and the Belfast employer looks upon the joint wage in appor- 
tioning wages. L p to a very few years ago, the women employed 
in Belfast seldom wore boots. There are very many bad factories. 
There are also some good factories. But the trade-union situation 
is very complicated, because the lower wages are usually paid t<» 
the Catholic workers, and when the Catholic worker becomes a 
foreman, any non-Catholic worker who wishes to raise the religious 
issue can raise it and make it impossible for the Catholic workman 
to be regarded as a union man. And that has been constantly done 
with British unions. A very serious situation was created in July 
when the Protestant workers drove out a number of Catholic work- 
ers up to five thousand, and not only drove them out, but burned 
their homes; and in a very short time fifty-six people were killed 
on the streets of Belfast. 

Q. How long ago was that? 

A. That was in July and August of this year. I think my wife 
will tell you more on the labor aspect. There is no doubt that the 
religious issue has been kept alive by the employers to keep trade 
unionism from growing in Belfast. It has been a red herring across 
the trail of the labor situation, and constantly labor organizers like 
James Connolly, who worked in Belfast, have been up against this 
situation. It is kept alive continually by the newspapers and the 
sermons. I think there are more political sermons in Belfast than 
anywhere else in the world. Practically all the sermons in Belfast 
are political sermons. And that is a very bad situation for the 

Q. Belfast is not very well organized? 

A. Belfast is not very well organized. The Transport Workers 
are the strongest union in Ireland. 

Q. Are they in Belfast? 

A. I do not think they are in Belfast. I am not well informed 
on that point. But wages in Belfast are very low in comparison 
to similar wages in England. 

Q. And what are housing conditions among the workers? 

A. The housing conditions are good because ground rents are 
very, very low, and they have built a vast number of one-story 
houses. There is no congestion. It is a new city which has been 
built up in small houses, so that there is no slum problem as there 


is in Dublin, where twenty thousand families live in single rooms — 
one-third of the population of Dublin live in twenty thousand 
rooms! Sometimes families of ten or twelve people live in one 

Q. And what is the standard of living in Belfast? 

A. The standard of living is fairly low, considering the good 
housing. I think it is a squalid city. It is like some of the Cana- 
dian towns, I would say; it is in a state of early capitalism. 

Q. What is the general morale of the place? 

A. The Belfast Chamber of Commerce is one of the most reac- 
tionary bodies whose pronouncements I have ever read. The Dub- 
lin Chamber of Commerce is very much better. Although in regard 
to labor, I must say that the Dublin Chamber of Commerce showed 
up very badly when I was home. In relation to that may I say this: 
although there is a very bad situation in regard to the social struggle 
in Ireland, still Irish labor outside of Belfast is all for Sinn Fein. 

Q. In Belfast what is the situation? 

A. In Belfast labor is opposed. Of course you have to take 
Catholic labor and Protestant labor separately. In the British 
House of Commons there is a member, Mr. Joseph Devlin, elected 
by labor as a Labor representative. He, of course, has stood for 
Irish independence. There is a gradual tendency on the part of 
Labor to get together. The whole fight of Sir Edward Carson and 
his group is to keep the religious question elevated. 

When the question came up in regard to what part of Ulster is to 
be excluded from the Home Rule Bill, they did not put in the three 
counties of Ulster that had a majority of Catholics, or the four 
manufacturing counties where labor might get together, but rather 
the two agricultural counties where there might be enough farmers 
who had an interest against labor, to go into the Ulster Parliament. 

Q. After all, the religious differences in Ireland are primarily 
political and economic? 

A. I think the religious differences in Ireland are clearly politi- 
cal and economic, and that the theological basis is practically nil. 

Commissioner Maurer: That is what I think. 

The Witness: I do not think that those who conduct the religious 
agitation in Belfast do know very much about the theology of Rome, 
or care very much. But they must have a difference, and if they 
did not have this difference, they would have a difference on 
whether people were brachycephalic or dolichocephalic. 

Q. What is the religious situation between the Protestants and 
Sinn Feiners? 

A. There is practically no difference. The two have merged 


when the question was taken out of the control of special interests. 
Some of the most prominent men in the Sinn Fein movement are 
Protestants. There is Lieutenant-Commander Erskine Childers. 
Robert Barton, who is also a Protestant, is a member of the Sinn 
Fein cabinet. I stayed in Dublin with a prominent Protestant who 
is also a Sinn Feiner. I met Dr. Kathleen Lynn, who is also a 
Protestant, who had been sentenced to death in connection with tin' 
1916 uprising; and I think several women who were with her were 
also Protestants. 1 met many Protestants who were prominent in 
Sinn Fein. There is no active religious feeling in the south of 
Ireland. In my section of the county the Catholics are 95 per cent.. 
and they elected a man as chairman of the county council who was 
a Protestant. Among the Catholic bishops, among the hierarchy, 
there is a great difference of opinion upon politics, just the same 
difference of opinion you would find among any group of men 
anywhere. That is to say, I think Catholic traders would show as 
many people against any change in government and against Sinn 
Fein as would Protestants. That is to say, I think the attitude 
follows economic lines rather than religious. 


One piece of evidence in regard to labor. There was a conven- 
tion of the Irish Labor Party in Cork about the first of August, 
and the conclusion of that convention was as follows: 

"We are fully aware of the gravity of the issues involved in this 
conflict. We are challenging not only the right of an imperial 
power to subjugate a small nation by armed force, but we are also 
challenging the generally accepted conception of the relations be- 
tween employer and employed. Railway companies, backed by the 
Government, contend that the workman's duty is simply to obey 
orders, to carry any materials that may be handed to him, irrespec- 
tive of the use to which these materials may be put — in other words, 
that the workman is part of a system, of a piece of machinery; he 
is not a responsible agent. The worker's contention, on the other 
hand, is that when he knows that he is being used for a purpose 
against which his soul revolts, he would be violating his conscience 
if he were to agree to be so used. This contention involves a claim 
that the workman is a responsible human being — not a cog in a 
machine; that he is a conscious cooperator in the work in which 
he is engaged, and has a right to decide whether or not he will 
participate in the work according to whether its purpose is worthy 
or degrading. Such a conception of industrial relations is doubtless 


revolutionary, but it is the conception which shall prevail in the 
Irish Commonwealth of the future." 

This had to do with the refusal of the Transport Workers to 
handle munitions, and with the refusal of the railway firemen and 
engineers to run trains that were carrying soldiers on military 
expeditions in Ireland. The Government, which now has control 
of the railroads, is now determining to close down railroad traffic 
in Ireland and to prohibit motor traffic more than twenty miles from 
the home of the owner of the motor. This, of course, applies only 
to civilians. The situation that is being brought about in Ireland 
is that of a blockade. That situation labor has tried to keep off. 
Labor also called a two days' general strike on account of the 
hunger strikers in Mountjoy prison. They were successful in that 
strike in showing where labor's sympathies were. The Government 
would like decidedly to close down the railroads on account of the 
munitions situation. It is probable that Ireland will be deprived 
of railroads within the next two weeks. It has already been de- 
prived of freedom of the press. 


The situation is rapidly coming to a climax between this great 
nation and this small people: the efforts of England to keep up the 
illusion that it is standing for law and order in Ireland while it is 
working to break down the morale of the people of Ireland by the 
destruction of homes, the burning of factories and creameries, the 
cutting off of railroads, and the killing of prisoners, before the 
world gets to learn the truth about these conditions and thus be 
delivered from the illusion that law and order is being maintained. 
So you have a race between the patience and endurance of the peo- 
ple of Ireland and the government of Lloyd George and Sir Hamar 
Greenwood — a government which denies responsibility for the acts 
of its agents, so that you have men executed in the way that Lynch 
was executed, and men who are brought out of their homes and 
shot without trial or warrant. Of course, one of the strong cards 
that England has is the killing of police. Sinn Fein says, on the 
other hand: While we have killed police, we have been compelled 
to do so in order to keep the struggle of Sinn Fein going. And 
even though many of our young volunteers are arrested and taken 
to barracks and killed, and then announced as killed while trying 
to escape; even though our people are terrorized and our homes 
destroyed: and even though sixty-five out of the seventy-three mem- 


bers of the Sinn Fein parliament have served prison sentences, yet 
there is no chance of the morale of the Irish people being broken 

Q. Where were these members of Parliament imprisoned? 

A. I will give von the list, showing the prison and the time 
served by these men.' 


I wish to make two things clear from my own investigations. In 
many cases there are no reasons whatever for reprisals. In other 
cases, there are mistakes made, like the burning of that English 
factory in Balbriggan. I was in Gal way a week after that young 
Black-and-Tan brought his revolver out and began shooting wildly 
at the people on the station platform, and I want to suggest to 
Mr. MacDonald that if Father Griffin of Galway be asked to testify 
here, he has all the facts in that case as has no other man. Father 
Griffin was kidnapped by Black-and-Tans last week, and nothing 

1 The witness submitted in evidence the official Irish Bulletin, Vol. 2, 
Xo. 72 (13 August, 1920) : "In the general election of December, 1918, 
68 of the Parliamentary candidates of the Republican Party in Ireland 
were elected, several of them for two constituencies. Some of the recent 
experiences of these publicly elected representatives are given in the fol- 
lowing pages. They are probably without a parallel in Europe. 

Twelve of these representatives have been sentenced to death. 

Twenty-one of these representatives have been sentenced to penal servi- 
tude for life, or for terms of twenty, ten, five or three years. 

Thirty-seven of these representatives have been arrested without charge 
and imprisoned or deported without trial, the majority of them being kept 
in prison for ten months and then released without explanation or apology. 

Sixty-five of these representatives have been imprisoned in English or 
Irish prisons, either without charge or trial or for political offenses. Many 
have been imprisoned more than twice, some have been imprisoned five 
times. Efforts were made to arrest one of the three who were not im- 

Only two of the sixty -eight representatives were not at some time either 
arrested or "wanted by the police." 

Eighteen are now hiding from arrest in Ireland, America, France, and 

This persecution of Irish Members of Parliament has continued without 
cessation since May, 1916. A constant passing in and out of English 
prisons has been the common experience of representative Irishmen for the 
past four years. It continues to the present moment to be their experience. 
On August 12th — the day prior to the issue of this Bulletin— Mr. T. Mac- 
Swiney, Member for Mid. Cork, was arrested by British troops while 
presiding over a Republican Court. 

Since this document was published, additional punishments have been 
inflicted upon Irish Members of Parliament. 


has been heard from him since. 1 That young Black-and-Tan who 
was killed on the station platform was drunk, it is said. He was a 
chauffeur, and he had been two weeks in Ireland, and had been 
fed up with the notion that the Irish were particularly violent. As 
a matter of fact, there is a great deal of quietness in Ireland, except 
where the police and military are patrolling. He was on the plat- 
form when the papers were brought in. There was a great rush 
for the papers for two reasons: they wanted to see about the con- 
dition of Lord Mayor MacSwiney; and, in addition, there was a 
race, and the people wanted to see the results of the race. For 
some reason, whether this young man was drunk or not, he got 
excited and began firing. And then the old Irish Constabulary took 
it into their heads that they would show the people their hand, 
and began their reprisals. The old man Quirk whom they killed 
was organizer for the Boy Scouts, and known to have the respect of 
the citizens. There the provocation was exceedingly indirect. It 
must be understood that the Black-and-Tan who was killed at the 
railroad station had already killed a man. Nobody knew who he 
was. He was carried to a house by Volunteers of Sinn Fein. Then 
it was found out that this man, who had a British revolver, was 
one of the armed forces of the Crown. It was the sort of thing that 
might happen anywhere, and would not be the occasion for an 
outbreak were it not for the political background. There are every- 
where in Ireland desperate evidences of the efforts of Ireland to 
realize its own will without violence. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What do you know about Father Griffin being- 

A. I only know what the New York Times said last week. 

Q. Was he invited, Mr. MacDonald, to come here? 

Mr. MacDonald: No, he was not. 

The Witness: Father Griffin told me the facts about what hap- 
pened at Gal way. I went to see Dr. Thomas Dillon, professor of 
mining at the University. I had to go to eight places to find him. 
He was on the run because he was afraid of assassination by a 
policeman who knew he was a Sinn Feiner. He had been arrested 
and spent ten months in an English prison for a German plot. I 
asked him about the German plot, and he said he knew nothing 
about it. He had never seen a German plot in his life, but it was a 
sufficiently good pretext to send him to prison. He sent me to 
Father Griffin, and he told me that the official report of what had 

1 Father Griffin was murdered before the Commission could secure his 


happened at the station passed through his hands. I think Father 
Griffin must have been prominent in the organization of Sinn Fein. 
What the Government has tried to do by hook or crook is to get 
rid of the higher in command in Sinn Fein. The Government has 
a list of the prominent Sinn Feiners, and has the instrument in the 
Black-and-Tans to carry its plan out. 


Who are the Black-and-Tans? I went to one gentleman in Ire- 
land, whose name I will give to the Commission, but I will not 
give it publicly. 

Q. This is an English officer? 

A. An English officer. He told me that they are recruited in 
England in many cases from ex-army men. They are often adven- 
turers. "An English detective," he said, "came over here to see 
me this morning. T am over here to find a convict, and I went to 
the depot of the Black-and-Tans to find him,' the detective told me. 
T did not find him there, much to my surprise, but I found a num- 
ber of other convicts whom I knew very well.' " I think a large 
number of the Black-and-Tans are desperate men who will do 
anything. Major Erskine Childers, who won the D. S. 0. for 
bravery during the war, has published a pamphlet, which was given 
to you yesterday, showing the number of thefts that have come from 
Black-and-Tans. They are that class of men. The situation is 
working up to a crisis. All the time we are being told that Ireland 
cannot stand on her own feet economically, and is run by terror of 
a small band of extremists. 


I think that when Ireland gets her freedom, she will work towards 
a workers' commonwealth. In any case it is perfectly clear that 
Ireland can stand on her own feet economically if she is given 
half a chance. She is a small nation, like Denmark in many 
respects. Its principal industry is agriculture. Between 1915 and 
1919 Ireland contributed over and above its own revenue for its 
own expenditures sixty-two million pounds to the British Empire. 
That is to pay for these tanks and aeroplanes and the one hundred 
thirty thousand soldiers who are running Ireland. 

Q. Chairman Howe: How is that collected? 

A. Through excises, customs, and inheritance and income taxes. 


Q. The army of occupation is paid for by the Irish? 

A. Not directly. The Irish contribute sixty-two million pounds 
to the Government, and that money is spent in part to maintain the 
army of occupation. 

Senator Walsh: That is the policy of all imperialistic govern- 
ments, to make the people pay the cost of keeping them down. 

The Witness: Miss Addams made the point this morning that if 
any locality has a disturbance, the inhabitants have to pay for all 
the damage done. And if there is a strike, the people have to pay 
for all the damage done during the strike. If the ordinary bourgeois 
gentleman sees a strike coming along, he does not want a strike 
because he will have to pay for part of the results. The Irish 
people, besides contributing to maintain this army of occupation, 
have to pay for all the damage this army inflicts upon them. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: How does the Sinn Fein government 
get its money? 

A. Partly by the issue of bonds. Of course, it was illegal to 
advertise those bonds. Many of them were sold in America. Even 
when they got the money it was not always safe, for many of the 
banks where these Sinn Fein funds are deposited have been raided. 
The Sinn Feiners try to get the Irish to pay an income tax to the 
Irish rather than to the British authorities. The British cannot col- 
lect the tax by selling the property on which the tax is levied be- 
cause nobody will go to the auction to bid on it. And the property 
cannot be picked up and taken away. The English government 
cannot get more than ten per cent, of the amount of its taxes. The 
Sinn Fein government asks the property owner to pay to it fifty per 
cent, of the English tax, and promises to protect him in case the 
English seize his property and distrain it for non-payment of taxes 
to them. From the fifty per cent, which it does get, it is able to 
compensate for property which is distrained. I do not know how 
well this plan will work in the long run. 


Now, as to reprisals. You can see that the established military 
order exists to suppress by any means the efforts of these people to 
assert themselves and establish their own government. I have to 
give you an interview given out by Sir Nevil Macready, the military 
head in Ireland, who defends the killing at Balbriggan of two 
youne; men. He says that it is only ordinary human nature that 
the police should act on their own initiative when somebody has 


been killed unfairly. As a result of these killings, he says, it is 
necessary to augment the forces of law and order from England- 
This is an interview given to the Associated Press, which is a com- 
plete defense of the military policy of reprisals in Ireland. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Do you suppose that if the Irish 
people had been able to build up their own government without 
the killings of police, that reprisals would have occurred? 

A. It is very difficult to say, because the British started out so 
roughly in handling the Irish situation. They arrested people 
merely on the suspicion that they wanted independence, and were 
quite brutal. They started on a policy of intimidation, and it 
hardly seemed possible for the Irish Volunteers to function unless 
the police w r ere driven out of the country districts into the towns. 
In order to do this they had to use force. However, there were 
very few police killed in getting the evacuation of six hundred 
barracks, — perhaps twenty. The police did not put up a fight 
there. But when they got into the towns, with sixty or seventy in 
one house and all the instruments of modern war to support them, 
then they could defy the population. 


Lots of liquor had been shipped in for the police. I myself have 
seen drunken police. I have seen unshaven police on Sunday 
afternoon. Those police do get into an excited frame of mind very 
easily. They apparently have the power to commit any outrage 
with impunity. How the Irish have been able to keep up passive 
resistance for so long as they have, I do not know. Then there had 
to be some policy taken in regard to assassinations, because those 
assassinations began, as I have said, with the police. I think that 
explains why some police have been killed. 

Q. Senator Walsh: To what extent have you seen drunken 

A. I have only seen one instance. I have seen many sodden 
men, dirty in uniform, in Limerick. 


But I have to contribute one fact about the police to meet Miss 
Addams' point. In Dublin there were five or six members of the 
Dublin Metropolitan Police killed. The Metropolitan Police are 
under Dublin Castle, but are not part of the R. I. C. There was 


some sort of agreement between the Sinn Feiners and the Dublin 
Metropolitan Police that if they would go around unarmed, no 
policeman would be killed. Before that five or six had been killed. 
Since then they have gone around unarmed and none have been 
killed. Of course, the English do not tell you that this arrangement 
was made. 

Q. You think the Sinn Feiners would agree to do that with all 
the police? 

A. Yes, I think the Sinn Feiners would agree to that tomorrow. 

Q. But that would prevent the British from stamping out the 
aspirations of the Irish for a republic. 

A. Exactly. The crime that George Washington committed and 
got away with, the crime of the Czecho-Slovaks and the other people 
who were seeking independence, is the crime of the Irish today. 


Q. Mr. Wood: Can you give us some idea of the relation be- 
tween the Black-and-Tans and the R. I. C? 

A. The Auxiliary Police start as sergeants. They are taken in 
at a pound a day, and twenty-five shillings a day in disturbed areas. 
I do not know this of my own knowledge, but that is my information. 
They are brought over from England as sergeants and put over the 
R. I. C. That has made for bad blood in many cases. The old 
local senior military police resent this, because these English who 
are brought over are getting more pay and are put over them. As 
sergeants they are getting much better pay than the regular Irish 

I have seen these Auxiliary Police very often in Ireland coming 
back from a raid very early in the morning covered with dust. I 
myself have seen a military motor lorry approaching at a high rate 
of speed along the roads, and you know that you will be killed if 
you do not get out of the way. And there have been several people 
killed by these motor lorries along the roads. 

Q. Senator Walsh: As a matter of fact, if the English authori- 
ties had not imported the Black-and-Tans and the British soldiers 
into Ireland, there would practically be in Ireland today no English 
government except the officials in Dublin Castle? That is, all the 
English magistrates and all the Irish Constabulary were rapidly 
coming over to the Sinn Fein movement and the Republican form 
of government, so that there would be no Irishmen in Ireland under 


English pay who would be out of sympathy with the movement for 
a Republic? 

A. No, I think there would be a small number who would like 
some English connection, but they would not be a very large num- 
ber, perhaps five per cent. 

Q. But vou said the magistrates and the police were resigning 
in large numbers, so that a situation was rapidly approaching where 
there would be no authority except the English left in Dublin Castle. 

A. Yes, I think that is true. But the police are in this situation : 
there are many of them who expect to be pensioned off after twenty 
years of service, — men along about forty, forty-five, or fifty years 
of age. When they approach the pension age they are not very 
apt to quit the job. But it is undoubtedly true that if the English 
troops were withdrawn tomorrow, British authority in Ireland 
would be largely limited to Dublin Castle and the forty-six or forty- 
eight or fifty departments — whatever it is — that are paid there. 
They would stay there as long as their pay lasted; but elsewhere 
the new government, which has come up under the old government 
like a shell, would function openly. Like in County Conuaught, 
there are a number of instances where the police have sent men to 
the Republican courts to get justice. 


Q. Chairman Howe: Tell us something more about the de facto 
government, Mr. Hackett. 

A. The de facto government has a land bank run by Lionel 
Smith-Gordon in Dublin. They are trying to provide land for 
landless men, and at the same time increase the country's economic 
wealth by keeping the young men in Ireland. The population of 
Ireland has sunk from eight million to four million in the last 
eighty years. No population in Europe has sunk in this same way. 
The Sinn Feiners are trying to find means to carry out the program 
which they formulated in 1098. They have worked out justice as 
well as they can. In most cases it is not criminal justice, — just 
civil justice. They have established these civil courts. They have 
inaugurated a commission of inquiry into the conditions and sources 
of industry in Ireland. Of course it is an illegal body. It is 
pursued by the military authorities. They produced a document on 
milk production. It is an excellent document. They are endeavor- 
ing to get the farmers of Ireland to introduce a very revolutionary 
thing — milk testing, so that the farmers will not have to rely upon 


folk lore, but rather by scientific testing they will be able to say 
that that cow is a good cow or a bad cow. This report, which I 
will leave with you, shows what the Sinn Fein government is trying 
to do. They have also established a steamboat line from New York 
to Ireland. 

Q. This lands directly in Ireland? 

A. Yes, at Dublin, I believe. 

Q. But direct trading connections are possible now with the out- 
side world? 

A. Yes. But like the coroners' inquests, it may be cut off. 
They cannot land in Queenstown any more. If Dublin gets to be 
a prosperous port, I have no doubt but that it will be cut off. 

Q. Now, about the de facto government. Mr. Morgan said yes- 
terday that the people of Ireland had a certain amount of self- 
determination by act of Parliament; that they proceeded to use this, 
and that the Republicans generally succeeded in capturing the local 
governing agencies, like he described in Thurles. How generally 
has the old imperialistic government been succeeded by a stable 
local government? 

A. I think you would find it is not proceeding in any logical 
way. Take, for instance, this machinery of local government. 
The Irish Local Government Act was enacted in 1900. That 
machinery is still employed by Sinn Fein, although it is British 
machinery. Where those local bodies which Sinn Fein controls 
refuse to do things which the English want them to do, then the 
British immediately, if they can, cut off their resources. A situation 
has been created at Dublin, for example, where part of the money 
for supporting the tuberculosis hospitals was contributed by the 
Government to the Dublin municipality. When Dublin declared 
itself for Dail Eireann, the British Government cut off this money. 

Q. Then the local government cannot function? 

A. That is it. Sir Hamar Greenwood, in a speech he made last 
August, said: "If they will not run the railways, we may not be 
able to compel them to do so. But the stoppage of the railroads 
in Ireland, owing to the refusal of certain railwaymen to carry 
soldiers and munitions, would mean the cessation of the old age 
pensions paid to the males and the stoppage of unemployment 

Q. Do you think that is an effective policy? 

A. I do indeed. The Government is hoping by this method 
to make satisfactory local government impossible, and to create a 
public opinion that will demand the operation of the railroads, 
even though the railroads carry troops and munitions. 


Q. Senator Walsh: When you speak of the de facto government. 
\ou mean that there is a national government that has representa- 
tives all over Ireland, and that eighty per cent, of the population 
of Ireland have by vote given recognition to that government, and 
that from eighty to ninety per cent of the town and city and county 
councils recognize President De Valera and Dail Eireann as their 
president and their national government? 

A. Exactly. 

Q. So that there is every single bit of legislative and executive 
that the people could establish to create a national government? 

A. Exactly. 

Q. But it is being constantly broken up and blocked and inter- 
fered with by the British authorities to break down the purpose and 
will of the people? 

A. Yes, indeed. \ou have heard, I suppose, of that thing called 
the Continental Congress. Well, if the British forces had got to 
Philadelphia, where the Continental Congress was, they would have 
been compelled to meet underground. I think that the Dail Eireann 
government presents much the same aspect of government in some 
places as one sees in some of the countries of Europe, like Hungary, 
especially on the military side, where death is the penalty if you 
are found connected with the new organization. But it has got the 
sympathy of the Irish people. They are absolutely with it. They 
want it. And the actual strength of the people will support it to 
the end. 

Q. Suppose the Black-and-Tans and the military were removed 
from Ireland; what would happen? 

A. The new government would come up from the cellar. It 
would come up. It would be to England's best interests to let it 
come up. For Ireland is the second best customer England has. 
Next to the United States. Ireland consumes more English goods 
than any other country. And it would be even a better customer 
if it had an opportunity to develop its own resources. Although 
Ireland's chief source of wealth is agricultural, there are only one 
hundred agricultural students in all of Ireland, as against thousands 
in a country like Denmark. 

Q. Only a hundred in all the universities and schools of Ireland? 

A. Yes, only a hundred students who are pursuing courses in 
scientific agriculture; real students in agriculture. 


I will leave with you a very precious document entitled "The 
Constitution of Sinn Fein, Established in 1908," with a program 
which is now being put into effect. Its first aims were a just eco- 
nomic system, the establishment of a land bank, the early estab- 
lishment of the Irish mercantile marine, and th'e development of 
Ireland's natural resources. There is, for instance, a coal mine 
only nine miles from where I was born that has never had a railroad. 
Coal is still hauled by a cart. 

Q. Good coal? 

A. Anthracite coal, yery hard, with a good deal of sulphur, but 
excellent for mercantile uses. 


Q. Commissioner Addams: Do you have a sense that this tension 
in Ireland is due to the fact that the military are themselves being 
forced; that they are in a very forced position? 

A. They are mixed, I think. I went with a brother of mine who 
is a doctor in a prison to the United Service Club, and some of the 
members of that club feel very bitter about the Irish. They have 
been educated with the idea that the Irish are inferior. They are a 
little like the common soldier I heard about in 1916. He was asked 
if the fighting was over in Dublin, and he said, "Yes, all but the 
natives in the hills, who have not yet come in." They have this 
feeling about the natives. But, of course, I found a good many 
soldiers who hate their jobs. They say that it is not their job — it 
is a police job. In some cases the military have prevented the police 
from killing, and in other places the police have prevented the mili- 
tary from killing. And, by the way, the only picture I saw that was 
destroyed in the Kerry Row that we heard about was the picture 
of King George. It was in the home of a man who had fought for 
the British Crown in Flanders. The police probably destroyed it 
because it was the most vivid picture in the Row, with bright color- 
ings that could not fail to attract some attention. The man was 
furious because, he said, "It cost me a pound, and now see what they 
have done to it." But when the police came down that street de- 
stroying everything, smashing in doors and throwing things out of 
the windows, and stabbing bedding with their bayonets, the military 
came and stood by; and some of the inhabitants came out and said, 
"Can you not stop them?" And they said, "No, we cannot prevent 


them from destroying property, but we are here to prevent them 
from destroying life." So there is this current of conflicting winds. 
I need not tell you that if a hundred and thirty-five thousand soldiers 
on a war footing got loose to destroy things in Ireland, they would 
finish the job in a week. But there is this tug between conflicting 
winds. All of England is not out to massacre Ireland. If they were, 
they would have massacred them long ago. On the other hand, 
massacres do occur. 

Q. I mean between the people and those who are in the military 
and police service. 

A. It all depends upon the individual military officer. Some- 
times he is orderly and civil and will not allow any theft. In Gal- 
way, for instance, I was told by the Sinn Feiners that the head of the 
military was a very fine man, Hildegard his name was. But this 
good officer was ordered away and a man called Cruise came there, 
and he had a very different attitude. In Galway, for instance, there 
was one regiment stationed that had just come there and got it into 
their heads that they would like to shoot up the town. The other 
regiment had been there much longer, and had formed certain human 
associations in the town, and they by force kept the Devonshire 
regiment in the barracks and prevented them from destroying the 
town. And, of course, the Sinn Feiners are equally human. 

In Belfast there was a Catholic house occupied by a Catholic 
family in a street where a number of Protestant families live,d. A 
number of men came in and said, "We are Ulster Volunteers. You 
had better get out of the house, for we are going to burn it." One 
of these Catholic women stayed to see what would happen, and the 
other rushed into the next house, where the people were also mem- 
bers of the Ulster Volunteers, and said, "Oh, for God's sake come 
over. We don't know what is going to happen. There are some 
men who say they are Ulster Volunteers, and they are going to 
burn down our house." A half dozen people rushed into the house 
and said to the men, "Who are you?" They said they were Ulster 
Volunteers, and the others said, "What credentials have you?" And 
they produced a paper. The man from the street said, "This will 
not do at all." And he asked them what happened, and these 
Volunteers said, "We gave them a wee beating." And my friend 
said, "And where are they now?" And they said, "They are in the 

And so you have this human situation. I talked to an English 
correspondent who was in a hospital in Limerick, and he said he 
waved to a motor lorry of soldiers when they went by, and he said, 
"I bet those men have not got a smile since they got into Ireland. 


I have seen them in Flanders, and they are all right." This news- 
paper man was Mr. Hugh Martin. He was in Dublin the next week 
and saw a row in a bar. An officer who had been drinking too much 
was flourishing his revolver. The porter tried to shut the door, 
and the officer pushed his revolver in his face and prevented him. 
Martin sent a report of it to his paper. Two or three days later a 
batch of English journalists went to Tralee, and the police came 
up to them and said, "Which of you is Mr. Martin?" And Martin 
concealed his identity, and they said, "When we catch Mr. Martin, 
we are going to kill him." And Mr. Martin forgot the smile he 
gave the Tommy and left Ireland the next day. 

And this situation is going on unless some other country, perhaps 
the United States, can get it into Mr. Lloyd George's conscience 
that people should not be crucified just because they want the right 
to govern themselves. 


Q. Senator Walsh: To what extent are the Sinn Feiners 

A. Many of the leaders are highly educated men. There are 
men like the Protestant writer, Mr. Darrell Figgis; and Mr. George 
Russell, editor of the Irish Homestead, is very sympathetic with 
Sinn Fein — more sympathetic than any other man I have met out- 
side the Sinn Fein cabinet. Then there are any number of school 
teachers and professors. 

Q. So it is not an organization led by a few hot-headed en- 

A. On the contrary, I talked with the largest dealer in sheeting 
in Belfast, and he is a Sinn Feiner. The big merchants, a great 
many of them, in spite of their interests in business, are for Sinn 
Fein. Mr. O'Mara, head of the American Association for Recog- 
nition of the Irish Republic, whose father is a big merchant, is a 
Sinn Feiner. 


Q. I would like to have you briefly tell us what the program 
of the Sinn Fein organization is in so far as they endeavor to pre- 
vent assaults and murders and violation of law and order? 

A. That is the question which Miss Addams asked yesterday. 


Q. Do they have a fixed policy? Do they send down orders to 
those under them to stop murders and assaults? 

A. I think that there isn't any doubt but that in many cases 
they have intervened to prevent violent acts by subordinates. 1 
heard of a man who had been guilty of theft, who had been intimi- 
dated in a horrible way into making a confession. They knew the 
man was guilty, and they fired a revolver off beside his head and 
frightened the life out of him until he confessed and the goods 
were restored. I told this to a Sinn Feiner in Dublin, and he was 
furious, and he said, "If you will tell me who they are, I shall see 
that they are punished, for they are guilty of a breach of trust." 
But, of course, when they have no jails there is no way of punishing 
many people. When they had General Lucas in prison, they finally 
let him go because it took too many officers to stay with him all 
the time. A Sinn Feiner told me, "We did not have the machinery 
to keep that man a prisoner. It was breaking up our organization. 
We had to give too much brains to him. He had to have the 
Times from London every day, and we got it for him somehow. 
But he was too much trouble." So they let him go. 

There is another instance of some men found guilty by the Sinn 
Fein organization and put on an island in the Shannon. The R. I. 
C. heard that they were there and went to rescue them; and when 
they came near the island, the prisoners took stones and fired at the 
R. I. C, because they were afraid of being arrested! I could give 
you cases of Sinn Fein police being given two years in prison be- 
cause of their police work in preserving order. What Mrs. King 
told you this morning about Templemore and the police work of 
the Sinn Fein Volunteers there was absolutely accurate. All. the 
roads were broken by motor vehicles. All the vehicles were assessed 
sevpral shillings for the repair of the roads. 


I myself have gone to a Sinn Fein court, and I have been struck 
by the intelligence and good sense of these young tradesmen who 
were running the court. It was the most democratic court I have 
ever been in. And although there is no physical force behind the 
decrees, they are usually obeyed. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Moral force? 

A. Moral force. Of course, there is also some physical force. 

I The witness w T as thereupon excused.) 


Chairman Howe: This is the last of the hearings of the Commis- 
sion at this time. The next sessions will probably be heard the 
first week in December. One of the witnesses at that time will be 
Mrs. MacSwiney, who sails in a very short time from Ireland. 
There are a number of other witnesses who are either on the sea 
or planning to sail in a very short time. There may be one or two 
or three more sessions. 


The last witness is Miss Toksvig, of New York. I can say for 
her that she is a Dane, and has been in this country for at least 
eight years. Miss Toksvig. 

Q. Your name and address, please. 

A. Signe Toksvig, of 229 East 48th Street, New York City. 

Q. How long have you been in America? 

A. I have been in America for fifteen years. 

Q. Are you an Irishman? 

A. I am a Dane, claiming some relationship and interest in 
Ireland through my husband. 

Q. Born in Denmark? 

A. Yes. I left there when fifteen. I went to Denmark this fall, 
and then went to Ireland. We spent most of the time in the south 
and east of Ireland. I finally insisted that we should go to Ulster, 
for although I am not an orthodox Protestant, I come from a family 
of that persuasion, and thought in fairness that we ought to visit 
Ulster and find out at first hand what conditions there were like. 
We went there on the seventh of September. 


You probably know that trouble started in Ulster on the twelfth 
of July, which is Orange Day. Trouble usually starts on that day 
in Belfast. On the excuse, as I could see it, that an Ulster man, 
District Police Inspector Smyth, had been killed in Cork, 1 and 
another R. I. C. man, who was also an Ulster man, had been shot, 
the Ulster shipworkers refused to work with their Catholic fellow 
laborers, and I think that about five thousand Catholic shipworkers 
in Ulster were compelled to leave because of the demands of the 
Protestant workers, who struck to compel their discharge. Many, 

See note, page 67. 


if not most, of these had to leave Ulster because they had no other 
means of livelihood. There was a great deal of street fighting, as 
you know. In the poorer sections of the town, the Catholics and 
Protestants fought each other with stones and the like. 


The first man that we went to see was a Mr. Lind, the editor of 
the Whig, an extremely Protestant paper. Mr. Lind thought we 
were tvpical American journalists, and he gave us what we con- 
sidered to be the regular dope for American journalists. Much of 
it we knew at the time was not true. He filled us up with the usual 
stock stories, such as that Belfast had contributed more soldiers to 
the Irish army during the war than all the rest of Ireland put to- 
gether (that can be easily verified, or rather not verified, from the 
records), and that the rest of Ireland gave only two to Ulster's 
three. He also said that all the people in Belfast were orderly, 
law-abiding citizens; and when I remarked to him that fifty-six 
people had been killed in the month of August in Belfast, he said 
that when these Belfast people heard of their fellow townsmen 
killed in Cork, they could not be restrained. He said that the Sinn 
Feiners were all leagued with Germany and received guns from 
Germany. I asked him if it was not true that there had been a 
gun-running at Larne at the time, of the Carson rebellion. He said 
there was not one gun got from Germany at that time, and if there 
was, it was for the defense of the Empire. Mr. Lind was very 
pleasant, but he was not truthful. He was the only man I met in 
Belfast, however, who was deliberately insincere. There were some 
others who were sincerely misinformed and misinforming. But he 
knew that what he said was not true. 


Then I met a Mr. Good, who wrote the best history of Ulster that 
has been written, but it was not reviewed in the Ulster papers. He 
called attention to the fact that it was not so very long ago that 
Ulster Catholics and Protestants were fighting side by side against 
England. Mr. Good was the son of the head constable of the Irish 
Constabulary. He is not a Sinn Feiner, but he is a very fair man, 
and I think we could believe what he told us. He said that in Bel- 
fast a very peculiar situation existed. Most of the constables were 
Catholics, owing to the fact that no Ulster constables are placed in 
their home county, but are sent down to the south of Ireland, and 


vice versa. So that when the Ulster shipworkers attacked their 
Catholic fellow workers, the constables protected them. He him- 
self had often heard the shipworkers say that "When we get those 
constables alone we shall do for them." He also told us that very 
often the Catholics and Protestants helped each other in cases where 
they knew each other. He said that whenever attacks were made, 
they were not made by neighbors against neighbors, but by people 
coming from another part of the town — a Protestant gang would 
come over and fight someone in the Catholic quarter, or vice versa, 
but where they were mixed and knew each other, they were not so 
likely to do that. 

I talked with a man who was a trolley-car starter. We met him 
several times. He was as kind a man and as polite a man without 
being servile as I have met. He had very liberal views. He had 
been with the English army that had fought in Russia at Archangel. 
He said that those people ought to have the right to decide what 
kind of a government they wanted. He thought that Englishmen 
surely ought to realize that the Irish nation should have a right to 
say what it wanted to do. And so I said to him, "Don't you think 
it was rather rough to turn five or six thousand people out of their 
employment just on account of their religion?" And he looked at 
me and said, "Well, they were getting very cockey, and we had to 
put them in their place." 

Q. Senator Walsh: Were these five or six thousand who were 
discharged Catholics? 

A. Yes. Discharged is hardly the word. 

Q. The Protestant workers struck, and went back to work on a 
compromise that the Catholic workers would be kept out of em- 

A. Yes. 

Then he told us, as an example of the extreme cheek of the 
Catholics — he pointed to a street near where he stood and said: 
"A band of them came here one morning. They saw a laundry 
wagon full of clothes-baskets. They stormed the wagon and took 
the baskets and made a barricade across the street and got down 
behind that and began to fire. But, fortunately, we had a very 
brave inspector of police, and he came along and shot several of 
them, and they all fled." 

And then in Londonderry — 

Q. What is the Protestant population in Belfast? 

A. The Catholic is about 20 per cent, of the total population. 
Most of the others are Protestant. 

Q. And in Londonderry it is half and half? 


A. It is about half and half. 1 think. 

We talked with the man who showed us around the walls in Lon- 
donderry. The most that we got out of him was that it was very 
bad for Catholics and Protestants to marry, because it would never 
work. And home rule would never work. He had no reasons to 
give us. He just had that idea roofed in his head. He wa- out oi 
work, and was a bit dissatisfied. 

Q. Had the strike extended to Londonderry'.'' 

A. No. I do not know why he was out of work. 

I talked to another man from the south of Ireland, and he began 
to talk to me very freely when he found that I was sympathetic. 1 
do not know w T hether he was a Sinn Feiner, but he was Republican. 
In the south of Ireland, he said, you cannot even carry a camera 
without being arrested; but in Belfast you can have a Lewis gun in 
your house if you are of the right persuasion and you will not be 
touched. I said, "Whose houses have been destroyed in Belfast?"" 
He told me that in certain districts only certain houses were de- 
stroyed. I went to that district and found that most of the houses 
destroyed had Irish names on them — Murphy, O'Callaghan, and so 
forth — Irish Catholic names. They were mostly public houses. 
And I was told by a man who was there that the soldiers were there 
at the time of the raid, and that they held back the mob, and let a 
few of the mob through, and said, "Easy. easy, only a few at a 
time. There is enough for everybody." 


The whole prospect for immediate peace there seemed very dis- 
couraging, especially in view of the large piles of stones in the 
poorer sections of Belfast, which they call Irish confetti or Irish 

Q. Senator Walsh: What are those stones? 

A. We w T ere told by Mr. Good, who knows Belfast very well, 
that these cobblestones were a great menace to the peace of the 
city. At one time the city council voted to have the streets of the 
city repaved, so that this menace might be done away with. But 
they voted to begin repaving in the Nationalist quarter; and the Na- 
tionalist members of the council, as few as they were in number, 
made such a row that the paving w r as never done; and of course in 
the Orange section of the city they refused to have the paving begin 
there, because it would leave them without weapons. 



Also we met an Ulster man who was an Unionist, and also a rea- 
sonable human being. He was a large manufacturer, but of course 
I could not give his name except very privately to the Commission. 
He only talked to us because we came very highly recommended by 
Mr. Good, who is well known in Belfast. At first he was very reti- 
cent and confidential, but after awhile he said, "I know, and all the 
manufacturers in this city know, that the trouble is not a religious 
trouble except as it has been fostered by them to serve their political 
and their economic interests," 

Q. By "them" meaning whom? 

A. By the manufacturers in Belfast. He said, "1 warned them 
a long time ago that they were raising up a monster which they 
could not control and which some day might turn upon them, but 
they paid no attention. Both the press and the clergy — not all of 
them, but some of them — and the large manufacturers have worked 
together to keep up strife between the workmen in Belfast, using the 
religious issue simply as a means." 

Q. As a means to prevent what? 

A. To prevent agitation among laborers to improve their con- 
dition and wages, and home rule agitation secondly. It seems to 
me that that was a large admission for him to make. He might be 
willing to come over here and testify. He is a very courageous man. 


Q. Did your other evidence confirm that? 

A. Yes, absolutely. The brother of this man, who is a junior 
partner in the firm, talked with us afterwards, and he gave us the 
same impression. He was terribly shocked by what he called the 
murders of policemen in the south of Ireland. Of course, his whole 
point of view was that England furnished all their law and order, 
and he repudiated the Sinn Fein government. He said, "You can 
hardly blame us. We went to school in England. All our connec- 
tions and acquaintances are there. Nevertheless, we are not against 
dominion home rule." They were against the Sinn Fein Republic. 
I do not know whether it would be possible to change them or not. 
My own personal feeling was, in talking with other people in 
Ulster, people in the stores and on the streets, that they were enough 
different from the people in the rest of Ireland to have the right to 
vote as to what would become of them. The man with whom I 


talked said, "I know perfectly well that this country our forefathers 
got by robbing the Irish inhabitants several hundred years ago. 
But we have developed this country by our own labors, and is it 
right to drive us out of here without giving us a voice as to what is 
going to become of us?" He was a descendant of one of the fam- 
ilies that was planted in Ulster. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Do they use the word "planted" in Ulster to 
denote those who were planted there by England many years ago? 

A. Yes, he knew that. He knew more history than the majority 
of the people in Ulster. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Just when was that? 

A. The planting was about two hundred years ago. Then we 
talked with the bookkeeper in that firm, who took us around and 
showed us the factory. I have seen excellent factories in the United 
States, and this factory was as good as any of them. It was an ex- 
ceptional case. I saw many young girls working who looked to me 
to be under fourteen, but he said that they were all over fourteen, 
and they probably would have said so themselves. They had a 
nine-hour day. There are some factories in Belfast, we heard from 
the bookkeeper, which were not up to that standard. Yet they had 
municipal inspection all the time, and had to measure up to a cer- 
tain norm. The bookkeeper also said that there were factories in 
the south of Ireland, usually laundries and places like that, which 
were far from sanitary and ought to be inspected. I said to him. 
"Is that in your opinion an argument against Ulster coming into an 
independent Ireland or an Irish dominion? Are you afraid that the 
south of Ireland will hinder you in Belfast from doing what you are 
doing?" He said, "No, that is all the more reason why we should 
go into an Irish parliament and settle it between ourselves and de- 
cide together what we are going to do." All the people in that fac- 
tory are Presbyterians — Protestants. Both the bookkeeper and the 
two brothers at the head of this factory I found to be as liberal and 
as good to their employees as any employers I have ever met. 


I think this is all I have to say, except that we attended an in- 
quest in Belfast over two murders that occurred in August. The 
thing that impressed me most was a conversation I had with a police 
sergeant. He was an Ulsterman from County Cavan, I think. He 
was a reasonable man, and I said to him: "Don't you think it would 
be much better if you were a civil force, and did not have to carry 
these arms?" pointing to his arms. He said, "Yes, I think it would 


be far better if we were only a civil force, and had no military duties 
to perform." T was also impressed by the evidence given by the 
district inspector of police at that inquest, and at the way his evi- 
dence was disregarded by the coroner and the coroner's jury. His 
evidence had to do with the case of a man shot from an armored 
car. There were two streets, connected by another street forming a, 
letter H, where there was a riot. That cross-bar street, however, 
was perfectly quiet. It appeared to me from the evidence that it 
was perfectly clear that the man standing at his door in that cross 
street was a quiet, peaceful man. His widow was there. That man 
was a Protestant. He was also a Sinn Feiner as far as I know. It 
was evident that he had been shot. But the coroner and the jury 
were so anxious to gloss it over that the three young officers, who 
appeared to be very excited, were acquitted by the jury. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: In the north they still have coroners' 

A. Yes, because in the north the people on the jury will in- 
variably give the verdict that the Crown wants, while in the south 
of Ireland it will always bring in the verdict that the Crown does 
not want. 

Q. Then there is a different rule for different sections of the 
country in regard to coroners' juries? 

A. Yes, exactly. 


There is one more thing I want to tell you as an example of how 
the Ulster manufacturers have called into being a monster of re- 
ligious prejudice that they can no longer control. The owner of a 
very large machine works, called the Sirocco works, I believe, had 
been affected by the very same conditions that the shipyards had to 
face. The Protestant workmen laid down their tools and refused 
to go back to work with Catholic employees. The owner wanted to 
start up again, but he could not because there were certain drafts- 
men employed by him, very crucial men, men on whom the industry 
depended, who were Catholics. No one else could take their places. 
so he slipped them in and thought the other workmen would not 
notice it. But the workmen did notice it, and demanded that he dis- 
miss these men. And so he had to shut down his factory. He could 
not run without them. And of course it threw the Protestant work- 
men out of employment too. The bookkeeper to whom I have 


referred told me about this case. "And so," he said, "that is the 
result of stirring up religious prejudices." 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is not the whole religious question in Ire- 
land one of the privileged classes, the financial interest classes, who 
control some of the press and clergy and keep these religious dif- 
ferences stirred up for intrenching their own privileges? 

A. That is true. But you must remember that they have suc- 
ceeded in doing that. They have dangled the religious bogey be- 
fore the people for so long that now a very real feeling exists. It 
started out like that. But the present generation is not going to 
forget about it soon, even though it was started artificially. 

Chairman Howe: We are very much obliged to you. 

Adjournment 5:45 P. M. 


Before the 

Session One 

Jane Addams 

James H. Maurer 

Oliver P. Newman 

George W. Norris 

Norman Thomas \ Commissioners 

David I. Walsh 

L. Hollingsworth Wood 

Frederic C. Howe 

Acting Chairman 

Before the Commission sitting in Odd Fellows' Hall, Washington, 
D. C, Wednesday, December 8, 1920. 

Session called to order by Chairman Howe at 10:23 a. m. 

Chairman Howe: The session will please come to order. Since 
the last meeting of the Commission the following persons have 
become members of the Commission, and will sit with us this 

Senator George W. Norris, of Nebraska. 

Congressman-Elect C. L. Knight has been elected but is not here, 
although he has accepted membership. He is the Congressman- 
elect from Akron, Ohio. 

Major Oliver P. Newman, former District Commissioner of the 
District of Columbia. Major Newman is sick in bed today and 
cannot be with us. 

Mr. Norman Thomas, of New York, who is here this morning. 

The Commission has also asked Senator Thomas Walsh, of Mon- 
tana, and Ex-Senator James Martine, of New Jersey, to sit with the 
Commission today. They are present with us. 

The first witness this morning is Miss Mary MacSwiney. Miss 
MacSwiney is on the witness stand. 

Miss MacSwiney, you realize that this is not a regular legal hear- 



ing — not a legal procedure — and you are not subject to cross exami- 
nation, except that the members of the Commission want to examine 
you to get at the facts and find out about conditions in Ireland. We 
want you to tell your story in a way that is easy and natural to you, 
and we would like to have you tell it loud enough so that as many 
of the people here as possible can hear it. 


Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh (of counsel) : Your name is Miss Mary 

A. Yes. 

Q. Where do you reside, Miss MacSwiney? 

A. In Cork, Cork city. 

Q. I believe you stated that there was something you wanted to 
say to the Commission. 


A. I felt that I wanted, before I started my evidence this morn- 
ing, to thank the Commission and the American people first, for 
the kindly reception we got, and to thank the Commission for its 
endeavor to help Ireland by getting at the truth. 

I think the best evidence that this Commission is impartial is the 
fact that when I left Ireland I got the impression from some Amer- 
icans that were there in the summer that this Commission was one 
especially arranged by friends of England to try to whitewash her 
in the papers, and to do it not only in England's interests but in the 
interests of an Anglo-American alliance. I find also that our 
enemies took it that you are a Sinn Fein sympathizing Commission. 
And since we thought you were pro-British, and they thought you 
were pro-Irish, you must therefore be impartial. 

I should also like to express my appreciation of the fact that the 
Commission has been trying to carry out one of the purposes for 
which America entered the war, and which I think we all agree was 
not quite effected by the war, and that is to make the world safe for* 
democracy. As far as my evidence is concerned, I should like to 
give whatever evidence I have to the Commission. 


Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Now, Miss MacSwiney, I wish you would 
begin at the point that you suggested to me that you thought would 


be significant, and as far as you can, go ahead with your own story. 
I will ask you a few questions to begin with. You are the sister of 
the late Lord Mayor of Cork? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And the names of your parents? 

A. John Terence MacSwiney was my father's name. He was a 
native of County Cork, where my family have resided since the 
fourteenth century. And my mother was named Mary Wilkinson. 
She was born and brought up in England, but of her four grand- 
parents, three were Irish. 

Q. How many brothers and sisters have you? 

A. Originally a family of nine, five boys and four girls. 

Q. And how many are living now? 

A. Six since my brother Terence died. 

Q. Have the family always lived in Cork? 

A. My father went to England after the Fenian times, when 
things were very hard in Ireland, and took up a position there, and 
married my mother there, and I was born there. 

Q. In London? 

A. In London. We came back to Ireland when I was five. The 
family have lived there ever since. Some have gone away for short 
periods. I was in college in England and was teaching in England 
for a while. 

Q. What place was the late Lord Mayor in the family? 

A. He was the fourth. 

Q. He was the fourth in the family? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And how many brothers and sisters have you living? 

A. I have now two brothers and three sisters living. 

Q. And the brothers are whom? 

A. My eldest brother is Peter. He is an American citizen. He 
came to this country in 1908 and was naturalized here, and lived 
in New York. My youngest brother, John, was in Canada when the 
war broke out, and he got a very bad time there because he would 
not join the British army to fight the small nations. He was sen- 
tenced to two years' imprisonment, and might even have been sen- 
tenced to death; and he was about to be transported forcibly to 
fight in the British army, but some of his friends got a writ of 
habeas corpus, to prove that under Canadian law they were not 
entitled to send him across seas; and while that matter was under 
the jurisdiction of the courts, the armistice was signed. 

Q. Where do your sisters reside? 

A. Two of my sisters are nuns. One is in Asheville, North 


Carolina. She ha:- been in America since 1910. Another sister is 
in Japan. My third and youngest sister is at home. 

Q. What has your life been? 

A. A teacher. 

Q. How long have you been a teacher? 

A. I have been a teacher since 1901. 


Q. You suggested, Miss MacSwiney, that in order to give a 
proper background for other features, and what has transpired re- 
cently, you might briefly sketch the Republican movement, espe- 
cially as it has touched your family and your case, and as you 
had observation of it. 

A. Just the present Republican movement? 

Q. Well, the background you gave me. 

A. I suppose the background of most of the Irish families such 
as ours is the background of Ireland. I would like to emphasize 
that the present Republican movement is not a new thing. It is a 
continuous fight that has been going on for Irish freedom ever since 
the English conquered our country. In Henry VIII's time they held 
a very small portion of the country. He was the first to take the 
title of King of Ireland, but he was really king of only a couple 
of counties. By degrees the English spread over Ireland, and 
finally dominated the whole of it. But from the time that they 
dominated the country, there never has been one generation when 
a fight for independence, an open fight, has not taken place. There 
has always been an open current of hostility to English government 
in Ireland, and the Irish people have never once in all the course 
of their history accepted the British government in Ireland. 

Q. Coming down through the Home Rule movement, with which 
I believe you are familiar, is there a connection between this Home 
Rule movement and the struggles that have gone on all the time 
against English domination over your country? 

A. Distinctly, I should say. Suppose I begin with 1798. I will 
not take very long. In 1798 there was an outbreak. They call it 
the Irish Rebellion. I should like to emphasize for the American 
people that the definition of a rebellion is an uprising against law- 
fully constituted authority. Consequently there never has been a 
rebellion in Ireland. There was an insurrection. But you cannot 
have a rebellion unless you are rising against lawfully constituted 


authority. And England's authority in Ireland was never lawfully 
constituted — it was an usurpation maintained by the sword. 


Consequently, in 1798 there was an Irish insurrection, in which 
Wolfe Tone, Lord Edward Fitzgerald, and many other famous men, 
with whose names we are not familiar, tried to secure Ireland's free- 
dom. It was distinctly a Republican movement. Wolfe Tone de- 
clared for Irish independence, and it was an insurrection all the 
leaders of which were without exception Protestants. I should like 
to emphasize that, because some of your people have the idea that 
the Irish difficulty is a religious difficulty. There is no religious 
difficulty in Ireland of serious importance. It is entirely a move- 
ment for political freedom. I might say that many of the leaders 
in the Republican movement have been Protestants, not only Wolfe 
Tone and Lord Edward Fitzgerald, but men like the Emmets, Mac- 
Cracken, Thomas Davis, John Mitchel, and Parnell — for we do 
reverence Parnell, because he put up a good fight in his day. And 
many of the leaders of the present movement are Protestants. 

Well, that revolt was crushed, and then there was a period from 
1817 to 1847 when there were many petty wars in Ireland. 

Q. Senator Norris: Miss MacSwiney, may I interrupt you there? 
Were all the names of all those persons you named Protestants? 

A. Every one of them, Senator, and many more of them. Dur- 
ing that period, the first half of the nineteenth century, the Tithe 
Wars and the wars against an oppressive landlord system were 
constantly going on. They were what you might call little sectional 
wars. The Tithe War was national. It meant that the Irish Catholic 
population were protesting against having to support non-Catholic 
clergymen. As an instance, I can tell you of clergymen who got 
a salary of one thousand pounds a year. That would be, I suppose, 
about five thousand dollars; and they never entered Ireland from 
one year's end to another. They lived in England and spent their 
money in England. 

Q. Senator Walsh: That was paid out of the public taxation? 

A. Out of the public taxes, yes. 

Q. That was the struggle against what was called the Irish 

A. Yes. And it finally ended in the disestablishment of the 
Church in 1869. But it was only by the Fenian uprising that they 


later disestablished the Church. Meantime we had a Repeal Move- 
ment, which was a constitutional movement. 


Then we had the Republican movement of 1848, following the 
famine. That is what was technically known as a famine, but it 
was not a famine at all. It was a starvation policy enforced by 

Q. Mr. Mr. F. P. Walsh : During that time was there plenty of 
food in Ireland? 

A. Plenty. There was food — corn and meat — to the value of 
fifteen million pounds a week sent out of Ireland. And if Ireland 
really had a government of its own and there was a scarcity of 
food, the first thing that government would do would be to close 
the ports and prevent the shipping of food. But England put her 
armed soldiers at the ports to keep them open, and food to 
the value of fifteen million pounds a week went out of Ireland — 
that would be nearly $60,000,000 a week went out of Ireland — 
while over a million people died of famine. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: That was not a famine. That was a star- 

A. Exactly, as starvation is going on in Ireland today. 

Q. Now to bring it down to date. 

A. The movement of 1848 was all a Republican movement. 
That was entirely a Republican movement. And surely one sees 
the extraordinary vitality of Ireland when a famine that destroyed 
one and one-quarter million people did not subjugate them. In a 
year after that they were in arms again. 


Again in 1867 the Fenian movement sprang up, and that move- 
ment was suppressed after a time. Many of the Fenians fled to 
America and lived here for many years; and about the last of them 
lives now in New York. I'm sure that many of those listening to 
me have heard of John Devoy as the last man connecting the present 
generation with the other. 

Q. Chairman Howe: How did the Fenian movement differ from 
the others? 

A. Not at all, or it differed only in that it was a secret move- 
ment. They had a secret oath. 


Q. Senator Walsh: Did it have religious aspects? 

A. Yes. On the ground that it was a secret society with a secret 
oath, many of the bishops condemned it, and that frightened many 
of the people away. 

Q. How about having Protestants in the ranks? 

A. Oh, there were many Protestants in the ranks. 

Q. There never was any difference or division along religious 

A. Never. Never. Insomuch as it was more a movement of the 
proletariat it was more Catholic than the '98 movement was, because 
the proletariat were always more Catholic. And for that reason 
it was more largely Catholic, even among the leaders, .than the '98 
movement, because there was hardly a single Catholic leader in 
the '98 movement. 

Q. What various Irish national movements developed after- 
wards, if any, that could not be said to be strictly along constitu- 
tional lines, beginning with Sir Isaac Butt's constitutional move- 


A. Sir Isaac Butt was a Protestant, but we would call him a 
very strong imperialist. He did believe in home rule for Ireland, 
and started a home rule movement, which was a very milk-and-water 
affair indeed. Then Parnell came along. Parnell was a Protestant, 
as Butt was, but Parnell took up the movement for freedom and 
liberty from the Irish point of view, while Butt took it up from the 
standpoint of convenience for the British Empire. I think Amer- 
icans understand that point of view. Butt did not want the Empire 
weakened. Parnell was different. He thought the Irish question 
was really and truly dominant, and that Ireland had a right to have 
a voice in its settlement. Parnell met the Fenian leaders, many of 
them, and asked their permission practically to try a constitutional 
movement in Westminster. In 1829 Daniel O'Connell had obtained 
the right to have Catholics represented in Parliament. And Parnell 
said it would be better to use this right and see what could be done 
in Westminster. 

Q. Was it generally known that Parnell, as far as his effort 
for complete liberty was concerned, did work in harmony with the 
Irish Republican brotherhood? 

A. Yes. He made a definite agreement with them to stand aside 
for a time and see how his scheme would work. And he gave them 
a definite promise that if after a certain period they felt that they 


were obtaining no good by staying at Westminster, he would go 
back to Ireland and work there. That was a definite promise by 
Parnell to the Fenians. Before he started his movement at West- 
minster he made that promise. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Did the Irish people ever notice anything 
in the statements of Parnell publicly, or in the statements he made 
in the House of Commons, that would indicate that he was willing 
to place any positive inhibition on or suppress efforts at complete 

A. No. The people were quite confident that Parnell meant 
absolute independence in the end, and that Home Rule was only a 
stepping stone. And Parnell himself said over and over again that 
no man could say that when Ireland got Home Rule, we would not 
want anything more. He was asked over and over again to give 
that promise, and he refused to give it. He said: "No man can put 
bounds to the onward march of a nation." These words of his are 
historic, and that was his answer to England asking him to give a 
guarantee that if Ireland got home rule, she would not want any- 
thing more. 

Q. Was there any change in the Parnell policy? 

A. No, Parnell never did change it. Parnell carried on that 
fight by means of obstruction. You can see that there was no chance 
to go on with obstruction forever. At that time there was no limit 
to the length of the speech a man could make in the House of 
Parliament. So Parnell said, "Very well, if you will not pass any 
Irish legislation, you will not pass any English legislation either.'" 
And then the whole eighty members of the Irish Party began to 
talk, and Parliament did not pass any English legislation. Then 
they brought in the Cloture Bill, by which the Speaker could stop 
debate on a bill at the end of the day's session. Parnell was a very 
much hated man. He adopted a policy that his followers could not 
join in English social life or join English social groups, in order 
to keep themselves absolutely uncontaminated by English influence 
— which was a very wise decision. Then they tried to put tempta- 
tion in Parnell's way, and Parnell fell. I only want to say one 
thing about that: after the judgment was given against Parnell, there 
was a meeting of the Irish party in Room Fifteen, and they dis- 
cussed in the meeting all night long as to whether they should ask 
Mr. Parnell to resign. They decided that they would not; that the 
man's private life was his own affair, and that he was doing the 
duty that he undertook to do for Ireland; and therefore they elected 
him leader. The plan was a disappointment to the Unionists, be- 
cause they thought the Irish leaders would be so terrified of what 


people might say in Ireland that they would dismiss Parnell. Then 
Mr. Gladstone, who posed as a friend of Ireland— and I believe was 
good enough in his own way, but in regard to Ireland thought it 
was a matter of territorial dominion and sovereignty — Mr. Glad- 
stone put on a virtuous air and said he could not have any alliance 
with a man of Parnell's character. That frightened the Irish mem- 
bers very much, because they counted on the Liberal alliance. And 
Parnell said to them: "I do not care very much as far as I am con- 
cerned, but I warn you that if you allow yourself to take English 
dictation now, you ruin your work through all these years." But 
after an all night discussion and debate he was asked to resign. 
That caused what was known as the Parnell split. He said that 
if they had asked him to resign at the first meeting, he would have 
resigned at once; but he would not resign because of a charge 
given them by an English statesman. And, of course, he was right. 


Eventually Mr. Redmond became head of the Irish party. Mr. 
Redmond as a young man was, according to his words and public 
expressions, as ardent an Irishman as my brother. But he did not 
keep up Parnell's policy of remaining uncontaminated by English 
society; and gradually he seems to have been hypnotized by the 
imperial idea, and he began to speak with two voices. When Mr. 
Redmond came over to Ireland he spoke with a fairly strong voice. 
When speaking in England he spoke with a very weak voice. He 
said, at the latter end of his life, words amounting to this: "I only 
ask you for Home Rule. We would not dream of asking you for 
anything that would injure you in any way whatever. And any- 
thing endangering English freedom or the British Empire we will 
not ask you for. And, therefore, we will not even ask you for 
our customs and excise." When Mr. Redmond said that he did not 
speak for the Irish people. He spoke for himself and for a very 
small number of people whom we in Ireland call West Britons — 
that is, those who ought to be Irish, but are very anxious to re- 
main English. We call them West Britons. Mr. Redmond spoke, 
when he said that, not for the Irish nation. The Irish nation never 
agreed with him. Never once in any speech he made in Ireland 
did he dare to say anything like that. The Irish people's attitude 
always was: If our independence is going to hurt the British Em- 
pire, so much the worse for the British Empire. They have no 
right to want anything that is inconsistent with the rights of an- 
other nation. The people began to get very angry with the Na- 


tionalist party, and then a movement started in Ireland which 
was called the Sinn Fein movement. 


Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Miss MacSwiney, do you not think that this 
would be a good way to come at this Republican movement, to 
trace your own movements in Ireland. You were a teacher at 
this time, I believe? 

A. Yes, I have been a teacher since 1901, when I left college. 

Q. And you might state to the Commission briefly the general 
plans of the educational system in Ireland. Are you a teacher 
in what is known as the public school? Give, if you will, please, 
the different lines on which the educational system is founded. 

A. Our educational system differs greatly from yours. I may not 
have yours very correctly, but what I understand by public schools 
in America are those financed by the state, to which all people of 
all classes can go free of charge; that in addition you have in 
America a good many private schools; that these are mainly for 
rich people, who prefer to have their children educated separately; 
and that they are of a different kind, and will, perhaps, give a 
different kind of education. Is that not so? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh : That is quite broad. 

The Witness: Well, in England what you call public schools they 
call board schools. Their national schools are schools run by the 
Church of England, and all other denominations as well as the 
Church of England can have their private schools, which can get 
their grant from the state; not as good a grant as the board schools 
get, but a grant, provided they confine the teaching of religion 
to certain hours of the day. 

Q. On what conditions can the schools get the government 
grant? Is it based on examinations, or what? 

A. Now it is not any longer. It is on inspection. 

Q. But prior to the war? 

A. It is on inspection, and has been for some time. In Ire- 
land we have what is called the National Education Act, which 
is the most unnational thing you can imagine. The National Edu- 
cation Act was passed in 1831. The object was to allow people 
of all classes to attend schools. It was the very first time that 
Catholics were allowed to be educated. There was another Act 
passed earlier that allowed them to have a certain amount of 
education. But education for the common people only began by 


this act of 1831. Previously they got what education they could 
get illegally. We had in Ireland what we called hedge schools, be- 
cause the master sat under a hedge. He taught his pupils in the 
open air because he had no school house. The National Educa- 
tion Act passed in 1831 was passed with the express purpose — 
definitely expressed — of denationalizing Ireland and anglicizing it. 
And in connection with that I would like to tell you a little story. 
You have all heard of Sir Walter Scott's poetry, and you know 
that he has written a little poem that begins like this: 

Breathes there a man with soul so dead 
Who never to himself has said, 

"This is my own, my native land"; 
Whose heart hath ne'er within him burned 
As home his footsteps he has turned 

From wandering on a foreign strand. 

And it goes on to say that if there is such a man, he should go 
"down to the vile depths from which he sprung, unwept, unhon- 
ored, and unsung." When Archbishop Whately, the Protestant 
Bishop of Dublin, got together a number of clerks and secretaries, 
and got them to help him compile books for the new national 
schools, he found among one of the books, in revising them, this 
extract. It was to go into one of the books for the national schools. 
Of course, that would never do, even if it was copied from the 
best English school books. The secretary who put that in prob- 
ably lost his job. Archbishop Whately said, "What a stupid thing 
it was to put that into the books, when what we want is to make 
these Irish children forget they have a land." And he substi- 
tuted for it a rhyme which began : 

I thank the goodness and the grace 

That on my birth has smiled, 
And made me in these blessed days 

A happy English child. 

Of course we call this blasphemy. We do not thank God for a 

I have told you that little story to give you the whole tone of 
the education in those so-called national schools. It was abso- 
lutely forbidden to speak a word of Irish within the walls of 
the school, and that, mind, to children who could speak nothing 
else, because in those days Ireland was all Gaelic-speaking. Even 


the children were whipped in school if they did not make haste 
and pick up English. In addition to that, no word of Irish his- 
tory was allowed to be taught in those schools. And in a whole 
series of school books appointed for those schools all over the 
country, Ireland was mentioned twice. On one occasion the Irish 
children were told that Ireland was an island lying to the west 
of Great Britain; and in the other place they were told that Ireland 
had been visited on a certain date by her gracious majesty, Queen 
Victoria. And that is the education the Irish children growing up 
in the middle of the nineteenth century got. 

You might ask me. Why did the Irish people accept it? The 
bishops of that time, with the exception of one glorious example, 
accepted it because they had no chance to get at their children to 
teach them, and they said, It is better for us to teach them their 
religion anyhow; and since we have the opportunity of teaching 
religion for the first time without hindrance, let us accept this 
Education Act with all its great drawbacks. The one glorious 
bishop who stood out against it was MacHale of Tuam. He said. 
"That Education Bill, as it stands, is an evil. If you accept it 
you are doing no good to religion and you are ruining nationality." 
And as long as he lived, which he did for about fifty years after 
this act was passed, he refused to allow a single national school 
in his diocese. Unfortunately he did not live long enough. But 
that is the sort of education our children are getting. But our 
children — if you will let me use the word — of the better class 
people — (I hate to use it because I am a thorough democrat, but 
I will use it here) — these children attend private schools. The 
better-off people send their children to be educated in England, 
and naturallv thev come back very English. 


In 1869 the Irish Church was disestablished, and there was a 
great deal of money left over. And there was one and a quarter 
million of that — 

Q. One million pounds or one million dollars? 

A. 0, pounds — about five million dollars that would be. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: Not at the present rate of exchange. 

The Witness: Will you allow me to use pounds, because it i? 
difficult for me to think in terms of dollars? Well, a great deal 
of money was devoted to education, secondary education, educa- 
tion for those who could afford to stay in school up to eighteen. 


The national schools only prepared up to fourteen. For those who 
could afford to go on to the university these secondary schools 
were endowed from part of the money left from disestablishing 
the Irish Church. The system of education was that the Board 
laid down a certain program. Any school of any denomination 
could teach that program, and might enroll themselves as an 
Intermediate school provided they had seven pupils. They got a 
grant, after their pupils could pass this examination, which was 
divided into various grades. In the beginning they did very well, 
because there were not very many children, and there was no 
system of crams. But as the number of children increased and the 
money did not increase, of course the tendency was that the prizes 
and the grant had to be divided up among a great number of 
people, and got so small it could not finance education. A little 
more money was given; and I would like to point out to you here 
where this money came from. A certain proportion of the whiskey 
tax was devoted to education. The result was this: If our people 
were sober, there was very little money for education. If they got 
drunk, there might be a little more. But the total sum devoted to 
education in Ireland was about forty-five thousand pounds a year. 
That education became a cram system. There were certain books 
prescribed. Much depended upon the teacher; but nearly all the 
teachers in Ireland at the present day were brought up on that 
system themselves. Cram for examinations; no real development. 


For a long time Irish — the Gaelic language — was not allowed 
at all. Irish history was not allowed. I may as well tell you, 
incidentally, that when I was going to school in my own native 
city of Cork, I never learned one line of Irish history. It was 
only about two years before I left school and the history class 
that Irish history was allowed, with much fear and trembling, 
to be taught. And then it was not Irish history, but it was the 
history of England in Ireland. That was what was called Irish 
history. But some of us did not confine ourselves to that. We 
learned a little more. How much you learned depended upon 
what sort of a family you came from — what England would call a 
rebellious strain. Therefore the majority of the people, who were 
in the hard struggle for existence, knew nothing about Irish his- 
tory. And that has given England a chance to say the Irish people 
do not want independence. The Irish people do want independ- 


ence, but because of their bad education they do not know how to 
express their desires. 

Another thing I would like you to know about education in the 
secondary and national schools is that there is one set of people 
in Ireland that were not there in Archbishop MacHale's time. They 
refused to go under the Board of National Education. They were 
the Christian Brothers. The Christian Brothers refused it because 
you had to confine religious education in schools to one-half hour 
a dav, and you had to use books appointed by the national board, 
and those books omitted all mention of Irish history, about Irish 
heroes, or a single word about a martyr or a saint whatever. And 
the Christian Brothers would not have that system, and they adopted 
books of their own, which are very fine books. And perhaps the 
reason that the men of Ireland are better educated and know more 
about the history of their land than the women do, is that the 
men have been educated by the Christian Brothers and the women 
have been educated in the national schools or anglicizing secondary 

Commissioner Addams: But there is one exception. 

The Witness: 0, Miss Addams, there are many exceptions. But 
I am talking about what the government gave us and not what we 
gave ourselves. 

About the second schools: the anglicizing influence of the sec- 
ondary schools was much greater than the anglicizing influence of 
the national schools, because it was fashionable to ape England. 
And there was a certain class of people in Ireland who were the 
outcome of this system of education. I think they probably would 
be much worse in any other country than our own. But they 
were ashamed to be Irish. They all of them finished their educa- 
tion in England, and they were so happy if by any chance they 
were mistaken for Englishmen. That type of man is hopeless in 
a country. And you have no idea how hard we had to fight to 
kill this influence, but thank God it is dead. 

The influence of all the secondary schools in Ireland made it 
seem fashionable to be English. So when the Sinn Fein move- 
ment started in 1905, you might be quite sure of this, that the 
meaning of it was neither understood nor appreciated in the 
schools — the upper class schools, the fashionable schools of Ire- 
land. The system in those schools was English. It was an angliciz- 
ing influence entirely. I am sorry to say that it was largely car- 
ried on by religious denominations, by the nuns, who were afraid. 
They were very timid, and were afraid to be anything except con- 
ventional. They are different now, of course. They followed 

196 , 

suit when the times have become Republican. And even then 
there were many bold exceptions. But that was the run of the 
secondary schools. 


I will have to digress from the educational question to explain 
Sum Fein. Sinn Fein with us today means the party which follows 
the Republican policy — what Ireland is today. I have seen in 
American papers, for instance, "The Sinn Fein," as if Sinn Fein 
were a people. Now, Sinn Fein is a policy, as you have the 
Democratic policy and the Republican policy. 

Commissioner Maurer: We do not have it now. We used to 
have it. 

The Witness: Like we used to have West Britons in Ireland? 
Well, I do not know enough about your policies to know if they 
are a good thing or a bad thing, but if you Americans want it, 
that is your business. Now, Sinn Fein is a policy, but the Irish 
Republic is a country. Suppose, for instance, I asked you what 
nationality you were, and you told me you were Democratic. I 
am quite sure that your countrymen, your fellow-citizens, would 
resent that very much. A Democrat is a member of a particular 
organization or a particular party. Sinn. Fein is a policy, but 
the Irish Republic Government is the authorized recognized gov- 
ernment of the Irish people, their chosen government. And so we 
do not call ourselves Sinn Feiners. We call ourselves Irish Re- 
publicans, just as you call yourselves Americans. We may have 
a Sinn Fein policy, or some other kind of policy, within our own 

I will tell you where the confusion comes. When Parnell and 
Redmond had failed to secure even a measure of freedom for 
Ireland, Arthur Griffith, who was founder of the Sinn Fein policy 
and vice-president of our Republic today, took a different policy. 
He wanted a reversion to the Grattan Parliament of 1782, with 
proper representative franchise and an executive which would be 
subject to Parliament. Grattan's Parliament, while it did a great 
deal of good, had none of these. It had a strictly confined fran- 
chise, and the executive was under the control of England. He 
said, We are to reach this goal by a policy of self-reliance. He 
took the name Sinn Fein, which simply is the Irish word for 
"ourselves." And he took it as a policy of self-reliance. Up to 
that time we had been working at Westminster for a very long time 
to see what we could get out of Westminster. We also had our 


eyes on America to see if there would be anything good coining 
from that quarter. During 1798, when we were ;it open war with 
England, we looked to the French for help. But Griffith said. 
There is no good casting your eyes to the ends of the earth. Only 
the fools* eves arc there. Vie can do a good deal more at home. 
We can develop our industries. We can study the Irish language. 
The Gaelic League had started some years before that. He made 
the main plank in his policy abstention from Westminster. 

That was the policy of Sinn Fein. The reversion to Grattan's 
Parliament meant a separate Parliament for Ireland. He took 
Parnell's view that you cannot put bounds to the onward march 
of a nation. But although he wanted a different Parliament, there 
would be the same king over both countries. That was the original 
policy of Sinn Fein. The name has stuck to what has been the 
policy of the Irish people all along — utter and entire independence. 
Certain of us in Ireland have never joined Sinn Fein. My brother 
was never a member of any Sinn Fein club, simply because it was 
not expressly Republican. It was implied. But he took the atti- 
tude that the mere repression of the statement that we are aiming 
at a Republic is a compromise. And we stand where Wolfe Tone 
stood. So he said, We will not join Sinn Fein. But he helped it, 
especially the policy of the development of Irish industry. He 
worked for the policy of Sinn Fein without ever declaring himself 
a Sinn Feiner. 

Q. How old was your brother when he died? 

A. Forty. 


Q. I think it might be well to develop your statement along that 
line, by a statement of your brother's activities. 

A. I am afraid I would be too long. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I might say to the Commission that, riding 
over on the train with Miss MacSwiney, I found she knows much 
more about this than any of us. She asked me to make suggestions 
from time to time that might keep the narrative in order and get 
everything in. I just made that suggestion. Of course, if it does 
not fit there, Miss MacSwiney should go on. 

The Witness: The only reason I hesitated was that the Com- 
mission might sit for a whole week and ask me questions and yet 
not get to the end of the story. I am at your disposal as long as 
you like. 

In regard to my brother's activities. Perhaps that would be 


interesting just at this point. I might say that we have always been 
Republican. Not only all our lives, but all our generations. We 
came down from the north of Ireland, where our family originally 
came from in the thirteenth century, and we settled in County 
Cork in the fourteenth century. And I think there are very few 
generations or fights since when we have not given some sort of 
account of ourselves. Writing in the days of Elizabeth, a certain 
one of her ministers, Sir Henry Bagenal, said of Ireland — he 
wanted at that time to capture the young Red Hugh O'Donnell, the 
chieftain of the north, and he was very exercised because the leader 
of the MacSwineys of that day was the guardian and foster-father 
of young Red Hugh. In those days in Ireland there was the prac- 
tice of fosterage. It meant that the sons of the chief of one family 
were sent to the chiefs of other tribes to be educated. And young 
Red Hugh O'Donnell had been sent to MacSwiney of the Battle 
Axes to be educated, because he was the greatest chieftain of the 
North. The MacSwineys were always a great military power there. 
So Sir Henry Bagenal, writing to Queen Elizabeth, said, "Your 
Majesty, if I could only manage to get rid of this MacSwiney, I 
would be able to capture Red Hugh. I think I have a plan." 
He had a plan. He succeeded in capturing him by duplicity. It 
is not necessary to tell you that story. 

Besides being great military chieftains, the MacSwineys had 
great characters even in those days. I hope you will not think me 
blowing a family trumpet, but since it is a great many generations 
back, it will not make any difference. They had a characteristic 
even in those days of being honest, and an honest person is at a 
disadvantage in dealing with rogues, because they give the others 
credit for being honest, too. So this MacSwiney, being honest, 
went aboard an apparently harmless merchant ship that came to 
port. He went on board to pay a friendly, courteous visit to the 
captain. While they were in the cabin on this friendly, courteous 
visit, the hatches were closed down on them, the anchors loosened, 
and they were taken prisoners to Dublin, which was about the 
only place Queen Elizabeth had for herself in Ireland. That was 
the history of the MacSwineys of those days. 

The family eventually came south and settled in County Cork, 
and there is hardly a place in the whole barony of Muskerry, as 
they called that country in those days, where our family had not 
built castles. There are still ruins all around County Cork be- 
longing to them. In Cromwell's time we went the way of all the 
Irish chieftains. Cromwell took the land and gave it lo one of 
his troopers named Sweet. And the Sweets held that land, and 


some of this family hold it still. They thus became the so-called 

All the Irish chieftains, when they were dispossessed of their 
land, hated to go away. They preferred to work as laborers on 
the meanest little farm than to leave Ireland and their native soil. 
There is an extraordinary attachment to the very sod of the earth 
in an Irish heart. These people did not leave the county. They 
took service as laborers, and became small farmers when it got 
possible to buy a farm, and stayed there. There actually is at this 
present day a direct descendant of the MacSwineys living on a farm 
on the grounds where are the ruins of his ancestral castle. He is 
also Terence MacSwiney. 

Chairman Howe: Just a moment. I notice Senator Gore in the 
rear of the hall. (Applause.) 

As you all know, no man in the United States Senate has been 
interested more earnestly in human questions than Senator Gore. 
We would like to have him come forward. (Continued applause. 
Senator Gore is ushered to the Commissioners' bench.) 

Chairman Howe: Miss MacSwiney will proceed. 


The Witness: You have been kind enough to ask me for some of 
our family history. I do not want to spend too long on it. I 
want to get my brother's particular part. Just before the famine 
period our family moved to Bandon. My grandfather was mar- 
ried twice. They were there during the period of the famine. 
My grandmother used to tell me very many stories when I was a 
child. I am using the word famine because it is so familiar to 
say it like that, but I want to emphasize it once more that it was 
not a famine, in a country where the fields were growing beautiful 
rich corn and where there was meat and butter in plenty. There is 
no famine in that country. It was organized starvation. My father 
was only a little boy, only a child, at the time of the famine. When 
he was growing up they removed to the City of Cork. Of course 
you can understand the want of employment there is in an unde- 
veloped country. Some of you have been in our country and 
you must have noticed how undeveloped it is — no factories; even 
the very fields undeveloped. The cause of that is not laziness, as 
you have been often told. It is a fact that we have not been allowed 
to develop our country. So my father went to England and worked 
there for a while, and there got married. He returned to Ireland 
somewhere about 1880 or 1881. I am not sure of the dates. He 


joined his brother-in-law in a partnership as a tobacco manufac- 
turer. The partnership did not turn out very successfully, and he 
started afterwards himself, but again he did not succeed very well. 
Matters were against him, and so the business was closed. My 
father died when we were children. I think the last time — he died 
away from home, where he had to go for his health, and my brother 
Terence was only about eight when he saw his father for the last 
time. But even so, there were a lot of old family customs which 
he had put into us children — the spirit of the family. One of them 
was that every Sunday afternoon we had to learn a little poem 
about Ireland for my father. We generally stood with our backs 
to the dining-room door, and recited for him. Terence was the 
last that ever did that. He was only eight when my father died. 
We had to learn some little poem and it had to be about Ireland. 
We learned T. D. Sullivan's poems; Thomas Davis' poems, all 
of them of an insurrectionary character. And I think that the more 
fiery the poem was, the bigger reward we got. I remember get- 
ting a bright, new sixpence when I recited "The Death of Owen 
Roe O'Neill." It was a very fiery poem, indeed, and two whole 
verses were taken up with curses on England. I was about nine 
when I recited that. My mother was very shocked, and I heard 
her say in an undertone to my father, "Really, that child should 
not use such frightful language." He said he didn't think it would 
do me any harm. 


My brother went to school to the Christian Brothers, but he was 
not satisfied with it. It was not a national school, as has been 
stated; but it was so far ahead of the others that we gave them 
credit for having the only Irish schools in Ireland. He went in 
for the Intermediate examinations and got exhibitions — that is, a 
money prize in each class. He left school when he was about six- 
teen and went into business. In normal times and in less strenuous 
conditions, as far as money went, he would have remained at 
school and entered a college course, and would have become a 
writer or a poet. But he had to leave school, because the family 
was not well off, and entered business. He did not like business. 
And he educated himself and was able to take a university degree, 
and he became a Bachelor of Arts. Not only that, but he did a 
great deal of writing besides. He wrote poems. In looking through 
his papers after his death I came across the letter that I myself 


wrote him congratulating him on the first poem that was published 
over his name. He became very interested in national things. 
There is a society in Cork called the Celtic Literary Society. 1 
think he must have been about seventeen when he was one of the 
founders of that. It was a body of young men animated by the 
Republican ideal. They used to meet together after business hours; 
they read and wrote essays, and brought out a little magazine that 
circulated among a certain crowd. And that Celtic Literary So- 
ciety did develop other national activities. The thing that stands 
most to its credit is the Irish Industrial Development Associa- 
tion, which is one of the things those young men started. I told 
you that he never joined Arthur Griffith's Sinn Fein Society be- 
cause it was not primarily for Republican independence, but he 
worked along that line, as far as it went, and with one or two 
others was responsible for the founding of the Irish Industrial 
Development Association. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh : You might sketch that. 

The Witness: It was really a society strictly non-political and 
non-sectarian, and formed for the especial purpose of developing 
Irish industries — to make the people of Ireland, — who had been 
avoiding Irish goods without any thought, — to buy Irish goods 
wherever they could get them. They started industries. It spread 
from Cork to Dublin, and naturally Dublin, being the capital, 
became the center. But Cork has the honor of starting it. Mr. 
Fawsitt, who is now the Consul-General of the Irish Republic here, 
was secretary in Cork for many years. He was considered the 
best man to send over here for that reason. The fact that we have 
a consul here today, and have a consul in almost every European 
country, entirely against the wishes of Great Britain, is entirely 
due to my brother and his comrades who started this society in 
Cork in 1901, I think. It might be a year one way or another. 
That was one of his activities. 


Another was the Gaelic League. This was a society, also non- 
sectarian and non-political, for the purpose of developing the 
Irish language and making the people Irish-speaking again. The 
soul of a people is expressed in its langauge. And if you speak 
a foreign language continuously, you will naturally develop the 
soul of that language within you. The great anglicizing power 
that England had over Ireland was in that she had almost killed 


the Irish language. She was very clever in her propaganda. It 
is a great mistake to think that England is not a clever nation. 
She is very clever and very insidious in her propaganda. She 
never said to the people outright, You shall not speak Irish. But 
she took the children and educated it out of them. There is a 
little verse about the truth coming out in spite of oneself, like 
the story I told you of Archbishop Whately and the verse of Sir 
Walter Scott. When Lloyd George said the other day, when Irish 
atrocities were mentioned in the House of Commons, that those 
things will happen in a state of war, he thereby admitted that 
there was a state of war in Ireland. And so you get the truth out 
like that occasionally in a moment of high pressure. 

About the Gaelic League. We wanted to renationalize the minds 
of the people, and that could best be done by the Gaelic language. 
And so classes all over the country started up for the teaching 
of Gaelic. Old men and young men who knew the Gaelic language 
well, v/herever they could be found, were brought into the cities 
and set to work as teachers. You could see them night after night 
in stuffy rooms, — mainly because most of these people were poor. 
They had no money back of them to help their propaganda. They 
worked hard during the day, and at night sat around the table 
there in these little rooms and studied Gaelic and made them- 
selves Gaelic speakers. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Miss MacSwiney, to what extent in the last 
ten or fifteen years has the speaking of the Gaelic language been 
extended among the Irish people? 

A. I could not give you the exact statistics, but it has devel- 
oped very wonderfully. For instance, when those young men 
began to learn the Gaelic language, they were looked upon as 
curios. Their own people could not understand. They said, What 
is the use of that outlandish thing? But they persevered, and now 
today the person who cannot speak Gaelic is ashamed of himself 
or herself. 

Q. It is then exceptional to find anyone who cannot speak 

A. It is the exception to find anyone who is not trying. It is 
very easy to find some who cannot hold a good conversation in 

Q. And that has all been acquired through private instruction? 
There has been no public instruction? 

A. None whatever at first. But they forced the Irish language 
into the schools. They started a propaganda in the newspapers 
and succeeded in getting Gaelic into the schools. But it is taught 


as a foreign language, and in our own country! In our own 
schools our own language is taught as a foreign language! The 
development of Gaelic today was caused by a handful of enthu- 
siasts who had the idea and persevered. The Gaelic League was 
non-sectarian and non-political, and they got into it a good many 
people who were interested in the language, perhaps, from an 
historical point of view, perhaps from a literary point of view; and 
these people joined in because it was non-secretarian and non- 
political. But those who remained and made themselves speakers 
of the language had the right idea, the right Irish idea behind them. 


In addition to that, my brother aided a great many other activi- 
ties. There was considerable English propaganda going on. These 
young men started themselves to counteract this propaganda. Part 
of this English propaganda consisted of visits of royal personages 
to Ireland. When these royal persons were coming, there was 
always a great effort to get loyal addresses from corporations 
and like bodies. That succeeded for very many years. Then this 
body of young men took it upon themselves to see that that did not 
succeed any more. In 1906 or 1907, when the late King Edward 
was visiting Ireland, they had a little room up over the street, 
and they hung out a black flag instead of the union jack. They 
hissed and booed a great deal. Of course, needless to say, the 
police were down on them, but they did not care about that. They 
took good care to see that the corporations did not pass a loyal 
address, and the corporations did not. 

All these things are small, but it is out of those that our success 
has come today. Not that the soul of Ireland was not always 
Republican. — I should like to get that into your heads; but it is 
because it is more successfully Republican. As Mr. Griffith said 
in a message to some people in America, "Today is our Valley 
Forge; tomorrow will be our Yorktown." But if I am not mis- 
taken, at your Valley Forge the soldiers had to bear the brunt 
of the suffering. But in our Valley Forge the women and chil 
dren have to bear the brunt of the sufferings. But our turn is 
coming tomorrow, as surely as yours came. 

That represents the activities of my brother. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Might I ask if the telegram that came 
from the Cork Chamber of Commerce, that came to this country to 
protest against ships not stopping at Queenstown, was that a part 
of your brother's movement? 


A. Yes, they started that, but it was years afterwards. 

Q. But after this, this Commission came to America of which 
Mr. Fawsitt was a member, and it is as a result of their efforts that 
there is a line of ships running to Ireland such as we have today? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you say that this work was or was not a good thing 
for the industries of Ireland? 

A. Of course, it has made our industries much more pros- 
perous. It has given employment to hundreds of thousands of 
people. As a matter of fact, it was out of the Industrial Devel- 
opment Association that the cooperative creamery movement was 
started by Sir Horace Plunkett. Everybody realized that the 
country should be developed, and they started where they could. 
And then Sir Horace Plunkett started his creameries all over the 
country, which the English are now burning to ruin the industry. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Where were we? 


A. I am coming to the Volunteer movement. You remember 
that there was a Home Rule Bill introduced in Parliament in 1912, 
one of many. It was in the hope of stopping all this activity 
and getting the people to accept definitely Home Rule in the 
British Empire,— which would, of course, leave England's hands 
in our pockets all the time. It was absolutely no use, that Home 
Rule Bill of 1912, except that it would be centering Irish inter- 
ests in Dublin instead of London. I said that Mr. Arthur Griffith's 
policy in the old days was abstention from Westminster. West- 
minster, of course, means the English Houses of Parliament. The 
only good that a Home Rule Bill would have done would be that 
the center of gravity would have been shifted from London to Ire- 
land. That would have had a very great effect. The people would 
have said then, Why should we have so little when we might have 
had more? Sir Edward Carson said he did not want Home 
Rule. He started in 1913 the idea of forcible resistance to Home 
Rule. He said, "Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right." He 
said a great many other things. The main thing is that he got 
guns and ammunition, and he got them from Germany. He also 
said, We will not come under a Catholic government, and if 
the English people throw us over, we will enroll ourselves under 
the greatest Protestant nation in the world, under the German 
nation." He said he would invite the German emperor over himself 
if the English forced Home Rule upon them. 


Q. Senator Walsh: Are these things matters of public record? 

A. 0, yes, absolutely. They are in all the English papers and 
Irish papers of the time. You will find them in book form, Sir 
Edward Carson's statements. They have been collected together by 
an Irish Republican and put into book form and called, "The 
Grammar of Anarchy." When Sir Edward Carson made those 
statements, he got something like two million pounds from Eng- 
land for propaganda, and also the promise that the English Tories 
would fight with them. He also stirred up a revolt at the Curragh 
camp, and the British officers in the Curragh camp said they would 
not, if they were ordered, go and put down a revolution in the 
Covenanters' camp. They were called Covenanters because they 
covenanted together that they would not have Home Rule; they 
would have the Castle code. We were very happy when we knew 
what Sir Edward Carson was doing. His statements have been 
collected in book form, as I said. One Sinn Feiner got some- 
thing like six months' imprisonment for having in his possession 
seditious literature, and the only seditious literature he had in his 
possession, besides a few newspapers, was Sid Edward Carson's 


Sir Edward Carson started the Volunteers. There was always 
an Act in Ireland that you must not have arms in your possession. 
It was not enforced, however. Sir Edward Carson succeeded in 
getting a large quantity of arms presently. We looked on and 
said nothing. We let Sir Edward Carson and his Volunteers get 
along splendidly. If we could have patted him on the back, we 
would have told him to go ahead. He went ahead a good while. 
And then our people in the south began to say publicly, Well, of 
course, if Sir Edward Carson is getting armed for a march on 
Cork, we will have to arm also. And then they started the Irish 
Volunteers. England was in a fix. She had patted Sir Edward 
Carson on the back when he formed the Ulster Volunteers. Eng- 
lish societies had been organized to subscribe money for drums 
for these Ulster Volunteers. The English Government had looked 
on with a more or less benevolent eye. And then if she had said, 
There must be no Irish Volunteers, the world would have said, 
That is not impartial. But within one week of our starting the 
Irish Volunteers, the Arms Act was enforced and the Govern- 


ment said, No arms in Ireland. Within one week! Sir Edward 
Carson had been getting arms for several months. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What date was this? 

A. This was somewhere in the early days of 1914, in the spring, 
before the War. He got a boat 

Q. Had the Home Rule Bill passed passed Parliament? 

A. It had passed the House of Commons in 1912, but on ac- 
count of the House of Lords it had been suspended for two years. 

Q. It passed the House of Commons in 1912? 

A. Yes, and it went to the House of Lords, and the House of 
Lords threw it out. 

Q. What date was it passed? 

A. In 1914. 

Q. After the War? 

A. After the War, yes; after the Recruiting Act. 

Q. But it was known in 1914 that it would be passed, — it was 
known before the War? 

A. Yes. 

Q. So that these preparations that were made were in prepara- 
tion for the Act? 

A. Yes. 


In the spring of 1914 a ship loaded with arms set out from 
Germany for Sid Edward Carson. The English government knew 
perfectly well what was being done, and that those arms were 
going to Sir Edward Carson. There was a little camouflage done. 
The boat started with one name from Hamburg and was stopped 
in midocean and repainted and renamed, and came into Larne, 
which is one of the Orange ports up there. The policemen are 
all Orangemen. They were all sympathetic with Sir Edward Car- 
son. It was absolutely contrary to law, of course, but that made 
no matter. The guns were safely landed in Larne and safely 
stored. And the next morning it was all over the English and 
Irish press. The English Parliament held up their hands in horror. 
It was a very illegal act, said Mr. Asquith, but he made no motion 
to punish that act. Well, we will take a good example from peo- 
ple when we get it; and as we followed the Irish Volunteers after 
the Ulster Volunteers, we were not too proud to follow Sir Edward 
Carson in gun-running. And the last week in July, 1914, the 
Howth gun-running took place. I was in England at the time on a 


little holiday. The Howth gun-running — now notice the difference. 
The Ulster gun-running was in support of what England wanted. 
She was forced to pass the Home Rule Bill because she had to 
take the lesser of two evils. So she allowed those guns into I Ister. 
But when we started gun-running she knew that what we said, we 
meant, and therefore our gun-running had to be stopped. Well, 
it was not. Our people got in quite a number of guns that day. 
In spite of a regiment of soldiers and all the Royal Irish Con- 
stabulary that were available, the guns were not captured. But 
several men, women, and children were shot down on the streets 
of Dublin bv the soldiers returning empty-handed from Howth. 
That was the massacre of Bachelors' Walk, which took place exactly 
one week before the declaration of war on the continent and two 
weeks before England declared it. 

That shows you whether England wants to be impartial. She 
tries to say that she wants to treat the north and south alike. 
I could give you a hundred, a thousand examples if time permitted 
to show you that she never does, — instances of this kind. Then 
came the War. 


Q. Senator Walsh : These Volunteers meantime had organized 
all over Ireland. 

A. All over Ireland. But there was this against them. Mr. 
Redmond set his face against any volunteers whatever. He wanted 
to keep to the Constitutional movement. At the time the Volun- 
teers were started, it was said that they only wanted to take meas- 
ures against Sir Edward Carson's rebellion. He felt that it was 
dangerous to let the young men take things into their own hands. 

Q. And this organization was called the Irish Volunteers? 

A. The Irish Volunteers. 

Q. And they included the people of all classes? Did they in- 
clude women? 

A. no, only the men were armed. But the women formed 
the Cumann ria niBan, a society something like your Red Cross, 
a patriotic society to help carry on the work. 

Q. Up to this time, Miss MacSwiney, was there a Sinn Fein 
movement, or was this simply a movement among the people, — a 
movement among the Irish Volunteers to arm and protect them- 
selves against attacks from the north? 

A. Well, this was a movement among the young men to arm 
to defend themselves for Irish rights. 


Q. Exactly. But up to this time there was no movement for 

A. No, of course, that was the idea back of every movement 
in Ireland. But it was not precisely stated until the first Vol- 
unteer convention, which was held in 1914. They definitely stated 
their policy as a Republic. The policy of the Irish Volunteers 
was the policy of the Irish Republic, a continuation of the fight for 
freedom that had been always going on. They armed themselves 
in defense of the rights and liberties of the Irish nation. The 
women joined Cumann na m'Ban. 


Q. You answer my question. Now, going back to Redmond's 
position before the outbreak of the war? 

A. Before the war Redmond disapproved of the Irish Volun- 
teers. He sent messages and letters to all the A. 0. H. 1 branches 
all over the country forbidding them to join the Irish Volunteers. 
But that is where I would like to point out to you, as I said 
awhile ago, that the policy of Ireland was always Republican, and 
when they found that a leader set himself against Irish inde- 
pendence, then the leader fell and not the movement. Mr. Red- 
mond sent orders that no member of his organization was to join 
the Irish Volunteers. But they joined in hundreds and thousands 
all over the country. So that by June, 1914, they were coming in 
in very large numbers, and Mr. Redmond began to see that he 
could not possibly forbid the movement. And, therefore, the next 
step was to control it. A great number of people, though they 
did not refrain from joining the Irish Volunteers at the bidding of 
Mr. Redmond, believed in his sincerity and in his desire for ulti- 
mate separation from England. And when he wanted to come and 
control the movement, they didn't see any reason why he should 
not, when he was going to improve it, you see. So he demanded 
that he have a voice in the councils of the Irish Volunteers, and he 
demanded a number — twenty-five, twenty-five members nominated 
by him to sit on the council. A great many were against giving 
him that, — a great many, the majority, in their hearts. But as a 
matter of policy they felt this: if we refuse to allow Mr. Redmond's 
nominees on the council of the Irish Volunteers, we will imme- 
diately have a split, which of all things should be avoided at the 

1 Ancient Order of Hibernians. 


present moment. And so the majority of the council gave in and 
allowed Mr. Redmond to nominate members for the Irish Volun- 
teers' council. There were nine who opposed it. Of those nine 
there were many who lost their lives in Easter Week. 1916. What 
would have happened if they had gone on? The whole policy of 
Mr. Redmond was to weaken the Volunteers. He got a number of 
guns, but they were useless. He did not want war. He didn't 
want any physical force in Ireland. We knew that he didn't want 
it, and that his action was weakening our movement. But at that 
time it would have been worse to start out against him and say, 
You will not get a single nominee on our council. 


When the war came Mr. Redmond started as recruiter-in-chief 
for England. 

Q. Senator Walsh: In Ireland? 

A. In Ireland. You remember Sir Edward Grey, as he was at 
that time, in speaking of the black outlook in Europe on the eve 
of the war, spoke of Ireland as the one bright spot, because he 
knew that Mr. Redmond sided with England in the war, and he 
thought that Ireland would follow Mr. Redmond. But he made 
a mistake. Ireland was furiously and indignantly insulted at 
being called the one bright spot. But the people did not know what 
was going on. The next thing was that stories of German atrocities 
in Belgium began pouring in, — how they were cutting off the hands 
of all the little Belgian children. How these stories were believed 
is a mystery to me. But they were believed largely in Ireland. 
Many people became violently anti-German, and because anti- 
German, pro-British. That is, the unthinking people. Those of us 
who knew something of history knew that perhaps ninety-five per 
cent of the stories were lies. War always brings atrocities. There 
is no doubt that Germany was guilty of atrocities in the recent 
war. There is equally no doubt that England committed worse 
atrocities. But there is also no doubt that the stories told in Ire- 
land to touch the kind hearts of our people were lies. I could 
give you many instances where they were lies. The only people 
who were not deceived by them were the poeple who knew that the 
stories that England was telling about German atrocities were 
absolutely word for word the stories she was telling the world in 
1798 about Irish atrocities. One of our national journals printed 
one week, in the early days of the war, in one column the stories 


England was telling Ireland about German atrocities, and, in a 
parallel column, the stories England was telling the world about 
Irish atrocities in 1798. And we who knew what lies the stories 
of 1798 were, concluded logically that the other stories were lies, 
too. But you must remember that the Irish people did not know 
their own history; that when England allowed Irish history to be 
taught in the schools, she only allowed it to be taught in books 
controlled by her. Therefore, the people of Ireland would believe 
these stories. Some of them may have been true, but the majority 
of them were prevarications, the sort of English propaganda that 
we had been fighting for centuries. 

Mr. Redmond came over and stood with Mr. Asquith, or who- 
ever was Premier at the time, and advised the Irish people to go 
to war for small nations. You can hardly blame us for being 
skeptical. As a preliminary measure, they passed the Home Rule 
Act, and then put it on the shelf until after the war, and said it 
was only to be passed with an amendment clause that would sat- 
isfy Ulster. The next point was an absolute division with Mr. 
Redmond's Volunteers, the National Volunteers, as they were called, 
and the Irish Volunteers. Now, because a great many of those 
who had been strongly connected with the Sinn Fein movement, 
which, as I told you, was a constitutional movement when it 
started, — a great many of those who had been constitutional Sinn 
Feiners had immediately joined the ranks of the Irish Volunteers, 
the tag got on, Sinn Fein Volunteers versus National Volunteers. 
Redmond called his the National Volunteers. We in Ireland called 
them Redmondites. But the general public, to distinguish be- 
tween them, called them Nationalist Volunteers and Sinn Fein 
Volunteers. The Nationalist followers firmly believed with Mr. 
Redmond that this was the way to win liberty for the country. 
The Irish Volunteers did not. Very soon the National Volunteers 
disappeared. They got no recruits. The recruits went into the 
Irish Volunteers. 


So matters stood until 1916. There was a great deal of harassing 
work going on in the meantime. The papers were suppressed one 
after another. We had a paper called Irish Freedom, which ran 
for some months, and then it was suppressed. Generally each sup- 
pressed paper would appear the next week under another name. 
We did not know always what the name of it would be, but we knew 
its sentiments. There were many Republican papers suppressed. 
My brother started a paper called Fiorina Fail. It means The Army 


of Destiny. From the word Fianna the word Fenian has come, 
because they were the army of the great Irish hero, Finn MacCoole. 
All that time the suppression of papers went on, people were pre- 
vented from holding meetings, and various other things. 

My brother was one of the very first Volunteers in Cork. In 
regard to the founding of the Volunteers in Cork, there is a very 
interesting story. The organization was founded in November, 
1913, in Dublin. Eoin MacNeil and other people came down 
to speak at the inaugural meeting in Cork. I have told you that 
we Republicans were very much pleased when we saw what Sir 
Edward Carson was doing, because it gave us our chance. But 
we rather forgot that the mind of the country was not educated 
up to that point of view, and to them Sir Edward Carson was 
anathema because he was opposing Home Rule. Eoin MacNeil 
forgot that, and in the course of his speech he said Sir Edward 
Carson deserved three cheers from us for forming his Ulster Vol- 
unteers. That night there was a little body of men at the hall 
that were sent there for the purpose of making a row. That 
little remark of Eoin MacNeil gave them a chance, and they broke 
up the meeting. The Redmondite papers the next day spoke of 
the awful iniquity of calling for cheers for Sir Edward Carson, 
who was marching on Cork to put us to death. It was a foolish 
remark to make, because psychologically the people were not up 
to it at that time. They simply looked upon Sir Edward Carson 
as the opponent of independence and Home Rule. That retarded 
the work of the Volunteers in Cork for some time, and they did 
not advance as quickly as they did in Dublin. 


In the spring of 1914 we started this women's side movement, 
Cumann na m'Ban, as I have said, like Red Cross work, and we 
trained the minds of the people to know what the Republican 
movement meant. But our chief work was to support the Irish 
Volunteers by every means possible in their fight for the inde- 
pendence of Ireland. We wanted to get a big inaugural meeting, 
and we succeeded in getting a big inaugural meeting, which really 
gave the Volunteers a big chance to have a meeting also. Our 
meeting was a real help to them. You know how meetings are 
sometimes delayed. We began in March, and it was April when 
we got going. We invited Sir Roger Casement to come, but he 
could not. One of my dearest possessions today is an autographed 
letter from him explaining that he could not come down to the 
meeting. That was in May; and in the beginning of June Mr. 


Redmond's call for control of the volunteers came. Then came the 

In November, 1914, we had a meeting at Dublin when the 
women had to decide whether they would remain neutral or side 
with the Irish Volunteers, or with Mr. Redmond's Volunteers, or 
split. Thank God we did not split, but remained on the side of the 
Irish Volunteers. Cumann na m'Ban has never deviated from that 
day, and they are still fighting on that position. 


In 1916 we began our first open battle. I suppose you can 
regard the declaration of war on England as the day we reorganized 
the Irish Volunteers and said they are out to fight for the rights 
and liberties of the Irish people. But the first battle in this phase 
of the war that has been going on for so long was in Easter Week, 
1916. That battle failed. We lost it. But Padraic Pearse said, 
on the night before we were forced to evacuate the general post- 
office, "We have lost the first battle, but we have saved the soul 
of Ireland, and now the people can go ahead." Easter Week saved 
the soul of Ireland. From that day on there was no more possi- 
bility of the Irish people mistaking where their duty lay. From 
that day on there was no such thing as recruiting for any army 
except the Irish Volunteers. In consequence of the insurrection, 
the Irish people were arrested. About two thousand of them filled 
English jails. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: About how many Irish soldiers took part 
in the Easter uprising? 

A. Not more than one thousand. The English brought in regi- 
ments and armored cars and guns and shelled our capital. 

Q. Were they all Irish Volunteers? 

A. No, there was also the Citizens' Army, the Irish Citizens' 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: It was not a Sinn Fein army? It 
was a national army? 

A. It was a national army. The reason the name Sinn Fein 
stuck to it was that all these people got mixed up in the Irish In- 
dustrial Development Association and the Gaelic League, and all 
got to be called Sinn Feiners because some of them were Sinn 
Feiners, and because they all joined the Irish Volunteers' move- 
ment. Sinn Fein was a tag put on by the people. Sinn Fein was 


originally a constitutional policy. But now the name lias been 
adopted everywhere, and it is a Republican policy. 

After that there were wholesale arrests. 

Q. Chairman Howe: The story of what has happened in the 
Easter Rebellion ought to be a continuous story, ought it not? 

A. Would you like me to tell you? 

Chairman Howe: We would like to have you tell us some time, 
either now or after lunch. 

The Witness: About the Easter Week insurrection, I will try to 
put it as shortly as I can. 

Chairman Howe: I did not mean to suggest that. 

The Witness: I know, but it would take so long if 1 went into 
detail. The essential point for you to understand is that this insur- 
rection was confined mainly to Dublin. Galway rose also, but most 
of the fighting was in Dublin. You have often heard that Ireland 
was divided over this insurrection. I should like to explain about 


We expected help in this insurrection. We expected arms. We 
had very few arms at that time. We were expecting Roger Case- 
ment to come from Germany with arms. I have no hesitation about 
acknowledging that, and I give no one in the world any apology foi 
it. We were at war with England, and we were at liberty to get 
guns where we could to carry on that war. England said she was 
fighting for the rights of small nations. We had absolutely as much 
right to our liberty as Belgium had, about whose rights England 
was so solicitous. If we wanted to take Germany as an ally we had 
a right to take her as an ally. England had a great deal of talk 
about our being pro-German. She did turn France against us. Only 
my brother's death has softened France. She said we weakened her 
ally at a critical moment. But what right had France to expect that 
we should not weaken the cause of her ally when her allv was op- 
pressing us. 

Q. We were told you took German gold. 

A. We did not take German gold. We took the pennies and six- 
pences of our people. But did not we have a right to take it if we 
had wanted it? Did not France take English gold, and did not 
England take American gold when she could get it. Surely no one 
has a right to speak if we had taken it. But we did not. Surely not 
England, who was borrowing from America. Any nation has a 


right to make alliances when she is fighting against an enemy. It 
is said that we wanted to invite the Germans into Ireland. We did 
not. The only man who ever tried to invite Germans into Ireland 
was Sir Edward Carson. If Germany tried to take Ireland we 
would fight her just as long and just as effectively as we are fighting 
England. Of course it was a lie that we took German money, but 
if we had taken it, what difference would it make? England says 
she wants people to have fair play, but she does not give us fair 
play. If it is right for France to borrow money from England, it 
would be just as right for us to borrow money from Germany, if 
we had got it, but we didn't. Germany would have been glad for 
us to create a revolution in her favor, of course. But we were not 
doing it to please Germany. More than one Irishman has said: 
"England's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity." England's difficulty 
has always been Ireland's opportunity, and we are absolutely right 
in taking advantage of that opportunity. The sooner you can get 
that in a common sense way, the better. It was no crime for us to 
take help where we could get it, to make an alliance with anybody 
we wanted to. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was -it not raised as a fact that France has 
sometimes been at war with England, and has been glad to help 
along revolutions in England's colonies? 

A. I was going to say that. In 1778 France happened to be at 
war with England, and she wanted to hurt England in any way she 
could, and she acknowledged you as a republic to hurt England, 
and it did. You also wanted, in 1774 and 1775 to appeal to the 
sympathies of the Irish people, and you got it. And I do not think 
America needs to be told of the many Irishmen she has had then 
and since to fight for the freedom of her country. 

And therefore I protest against the statement that I or my fellow 
citizens would choose to ally ourselves with the Central Empires. 
We did not because they would be no good to us. But if we had, 
it would have been no worse than England taking your help, and 
she was very glad to get it, because if she had not got it, she would 
not be victorious today. 


I ask you American people, do you think you have helped de- 
mocracy by entering the war? President Wilson said: "The reasons 
for this war have been so clearly avowed that no man can make a 
mistake by entering it." He said — I do not know whether I am 
stating it exactly: "America has gone to war for the rights and 


liberties of all peoples everywhere under the sun, for the right of 
self-determination for small nations, and for their release from an 
autocratic power." Are we not a people, and are we not under the 
sun somewhere? If you say "all people," you must count us. If 
you say, "the release of small nations from autocratic power," you 
must not leave out Ireland. As America went out for the rights and 
liberties of all peoples everywhere, for liberty and self-determina- 
tion and for the "undictated development of all peoples" (I think 
that was another phrase of President Wilson ) , I ask you, have we 
not rights and liberties and a right to the undictated development 
of our own country? We have our republic, but we have got it in 
spite of England's oppression. 

You people in America have not carried out the policies for which 
you went into the war. You sheathed the sword when England got 
what she wanted. I do not want to hurt you. You have been very 
good to us, and you have given us a chance by this Commission to 
tell the truth about Ireland. But you have not made the world safe 
for democracy. You have only made the world safe for a time for 
the British Empire. But I know this. When England begins to 
collar all the coal fields and all the oil fields, and when she begins 
to hamper your navy and your shipping by collaring the coal and 
oil fields of the world, she will not find it as easy to overwhelm 
America with force of numbers as she has found it to overrun Ire- 

Chairman Howe: The hearings will now be adjourned, — it is 
quarter to one — will now be adjourned until two o'clock. 

2:21 P. M. 

Chairman Howe: We will proceed with the hearing (rapping for 
order). Is Miss MacSwiney here? 

(Miss Mary MacSwiney retakes witness stand.) 


Mr. F. P. Walsh: When we let out for the noon recess, Miss 
MacSwiney, you had just begun to tell of the happenings of Easter 
Week, 1916. 

The Witness: It was a point made very much of by England that 
the Easter Week insurrection was not an insurrection of the Irish 
nation. That it was only a few extremists. And they pointed to the 
fact that the fighting took place in Dublin only. I had begun to tell 


you that we had expected help in the shape of arms. We had hoped 
to get some arms to enable us to carry on the fight, because the arms 
and ammunition of the country did not amount to much. And those 
arms failed us. They did not come. An insurrection had been ar- 
ranged for Easter Monday, 1916. The leader* had counted on get- 
ting the arms the last of the week, on a Good Friday. The ship 
bringing the arms was sunk by the British. They were perfectly 
justified from their point of view in sinking that ship, just as we 
were justified in bringing it in if we could. However, it was sunk. 
The result of that was that some of the leaders, notably Mr. Mac- 
Neil, thought that the time was not opportune to begin. And though 
the orders had gone out for the whole country for the insurrection 
on Easter Monday, the orders were cancelled at the last moment by 
Mr. MacNeil. Many of the leaders did not agree with the canceling 
of those orders, and I think that some of them thought that Mr. Mac- 
Neil had exceeded his powers and his rights in sending these can- 
cellation orders. One section, the Irish Citizens' Army, was not 
under the control of the Volunteers. That was a labor organization 
chiefly. You have heard of Jim Larkin here, and he and James Con- 
nolly were concerned with the organization of that Citizens' Army. 
They had threatened to go out in any case. The secret history of 
those few days has not been fully published, and the documentary 
evidence in connection with it was largely burned during Easter 
Week. And some of us, even though we were on the inside of Re- 
publican affairs, are not exactly certain of all the orders and counter- 
orders of that week. It ended by only a portion of the Volunteers 
rising in Dublin. They began on Monday morning, according to the 
plan. Mr. MacNeil had sent the order all over Ireland on Sunday 
that the Volunteers were not to rise. An order followed on Monday 
signed by Padraic Pearse and John MacDermott that they were to 
rise, that the orders were to be kept to. By the time these orders 
reached the outlying districts it was too late. Cork was not in the 
Easter rising. The fact that it was not was a lasting source of grief 
to my brother. Many of the people thought they should have gone 
out, even though they were certain to fail. There were some people, 
I am not sure how many, who accused them of cowardice or funk at 
the last moment. That charge was not justified, and I do not think 
it will be ever made again. But the situation in Cork made it im- 
possible for them to rise. Cork is built in a valley. The order to 
rise did not reach the commandants until Monday evening. By the 
time they could have got their men together every hill in Cork was 
mounted by a huge field gun, the largest piece of artillery they could 
get. Cork is built in a valley. The British military barracks are on 


the highest hill in the district. By Tuesday night they had a huge 
gun planted on every hill around the city. They could have shelled 
the city in an hour until there was nothing left of it. The Volun- 
teer commanders in Cork knew that. They did not want to order 
the men out to what was absolutely certain slaughter. They realized 
that Dublin was only a first battle in the war, and for the time they 
had to remain inactive. I can speak of personal knowledge of the 
very, very great reluctance with which they came to that decision. 
I can tell you what very few people in Ireland knew at that time or 
even now, that as late as Thursday evening at seven o'clock they had 
made plans to get out of the city into the country districts where they 
could have fought. Cork is not like Dublin, which was suitable for 
street fighting. Cork could not have street fighting. It would have 
been shelled from the hills within an hour. By Thursday evening 
they were trying to call the Volunteers out of the city, and as late 
as Thursday evening at seven o'clock I had orders to put in a fresh 
supply of first aid material in case they were able to manage it. 
They were not able to manage it, but I can testify to the great re- 
luctance with which they finally gave it up. 


The military in Cork were so certain that they would rise that 
the military commander appealed to the mayor and the bishop to 
try to get the Volunteers to lay down their arms. If the Volunteers 
showed no signs of giving the military trouble, the military under- 
took not to give them any trouble. Our men would not have any 
negotiations with the British except on equal terms. But they came, 
by the advice of the bishop and the lord mayor, to an understanding, 
as they were assured that a rising in Cork was impossible. The 
understanding was that they would hand over to the bishop and the 
lord mayor of the city the guns, the arms and ammunition that they 
had; that these arms and ammunitions were to remain under the 
charge of the bishop and the lord mayor as joint guarantors that the 
Irish Volunteers would not rise in insurrection, on the one hand; 
and that the military authorities would not capture the guns and 
would not arrest the leaders, on the other. This was a definite 
understanding, a promise made by Colonel East, who was command- 
ing the British forces in Cork. And that promise was given to the 
lord bishop and the lord mayor of the City of Cork. After a lengthy 
discussion the men agreed to accept that, and on Monday night, that 
would be the first of May, they handed their guns over to the care 


of the lord mayor. They were locked up in his offices, and the 
guarantee was given, not a written guarantee in the hands of the 
Volunteers, but the word of the military commander was given to 
the bishop and the lord mayor, as the word of our men was given 
to them, that they would take no further action. That was on Mon- 
day night, and the arms were handed to the lord mayor before mid- 
night. At eight o'clock on Tuesday morning, — at quarter to one, 
let me say first, just three-quarters of an hour after midnight, a 
military party headed by a captain went to the lord mayor and de- 
manded the arms that had been entrusted to him. He said they had 
been given to him as a trustee, and the military had promised not 
to ask for them. He was told that he would be in jail in a very 
short time if he did not give them up. Not being an Irish Republi- 
can at the time, he gave them up. At seven o'clock in the morning 
the arrests began. Practically every Irish Volunteer in the city was 
arrested, and two women were arrested. My brother had left for the 
country early on Tuesday before the arrests began, or before he 
knew of it, and he was out of the city when a party of six policemen 
with loaded rifles came to our house. I was in school at the time, — 
at least, I was not in school at the time, I was in jail, but my sister 
thought I was in school. But they stood around her, and the whole 
six pointed their loaded rifles at her and demanded to know where 
her brother was. She said she would not tell them. They threatened 
and coaxed her, but she gave them no answer. They wanted to know 
if he was upstairs, and she said, "Go and see." She happened to be 
standing with her arms behind her back, and they ordered her to 
put up her hands. She put them up, for she had nothing in them. 
They then wanted to know again if he was upstairs, and she would 
not tell them. And so they went upstairs, but they were all very 
polite, very polite to each other, each one letting the other go first. 
They thought that he might be at the top of the landing with a gun. 
The sergeant finally went first. They found nothing. They came 
down with very relieved faces and went away. We had a little maid 
at the time. They found her in the kitchen and threw her out by 
force, threw her out in the next room against the wall and demanded 
to know where the master was. She did not know. She never knew, 
of course. And they finally went away. 


In the meantime they went to the school and arrested me. All 
over the city that day the tension was frightful. Great squads 
of soldiers and police going all over the city, as many as a hun- 


dred and fifty soldiers to arrest one man. Naturally the word 
was taken to the bishop. Men and women were going to the 
house of the bishop and demanding to know what it all meant. 
He got in touch with the military authorities. I think he spoke 
very plainly to them. And finally, although they did not give back 
the arms. Colonel East sent an order to release all the people 
who had been arrested in the city about seven-thirty Tuesday even- 
ing. So we all got out. We did not have very much jail. It was 
about twenty to eight when I was driving down from the jail, 
and about ten minutes afterwards an urgent order came from 
General Maxwell that no one was to be released on any condi- 
tion whatever. But we were gone. The birds had flown. They 
did not take the women back, but they began rearresting the men 
in twos and threes until they had about two thousand of them ar- 
rested and put in jail in England. My brother was arrested in the 
country and taken. We did not know for a long time where he 


To show you how they can tell lies: we were very uneasy be- 
cause for over a week we did not have a single word from my 
brother. We knew he had been arrested. Someone had seen him 
brought into Cork at half -past four in the morning, and they were 
taking him up to Cork jail. A few days afterward we learned 
that someone had seen him about five o'clock in the morning re- 
moved from Cork jail. We applied to the governor, but got no 
information where he was. After a question asked in the House 
of Commons as to why these men were not allowed to see their 
relatives, Mr. Asquith, the Prime Minister at the time, replied 
that all the Cork prisoners were allowed to see their friends and 
had fresh air and food and visitors and all other nice things. It 
was utterly false. That appeared on Thursday morning, about the 
thirteenth of May, I think. He had been missing since the third. 
Some of us whose relatives had been taken away and did not 
know their whereabouts went to the general postoffice and sent a 
series of telegrams to Mr. Asquith, and sent him each one his own 
particular story, and told him that our relatives had been taken 
away and we had been denied all information as to where they 
were. We also sent copies of these telegrams to William O'Brien, 
because it was he who asked for information from Mr. Asquith, 
and to Lawrence Ginnell, because he was the only one in the House 
of Commons on whom we could depend to bring out the truth. 


We sent them in great hurry, because there was to be a debate 
in the House of Commons that day on the Irish question. Mr. 
Ginnell later told me that those telegrams created a great sensa- 
tion when read in the House. That was on Thursday. On Satur- 
day morning we all got letters from our friends. That is the 
way. And then when you catch them at it, they correct it and 
say, It is a lie; you are not telling the truth. 


That was my brother's second term of imprisonment. They 
were all in prison most of the time until Christmas. There was a 
general amnesty at Christmas. But the men who were concerned 
actually in the rising, the men who were in Dublin, were sent most 
of them to penal servitude, those who were not shot. And they were 
not released from prison by the Christmas amnesty. 


Mr. Walsh asked me this morning to tell you something about 
education in Ireland. There is a little addition I would like to 
make here. I was teaching in a large secondary school, in one 
of the intermediate schools of which I spoke, in the city at that 
time. As an example of the type of mind engendered by the 
British education in our country, I might tell you that the nuns 
are personally very fond of me. I know that. They highly dis- 
approved of my political opinions, and they were very nervous 
at having them in that exceedingly respectable school. On the 
January preceding the Easter rising, my brother had been arrested 
for making a speech. And a district inspector of police who had 
a child in the school went up to the Reverend Mother and told her 
I was not a proper person to be teaching in a school like that, and 
I ought to be dismissed. Now, I do not want to say an unneces- 
sarily harsh word about that school. It was my alma mater, and 
I am very attached to it. And the only crime I convict the nuns 
of was cowardice. It is a pretty bad one in my category of crimes. 
But it was absolutely unavoidable in that condition of mind en- 
gendered by the education of the country. It was so fearfully 
disrespectable to be a Sinn Feiner. We are all called Sinn Feiners. 
And Sinn Fein by that time had become Republican. However, 
some time before Easter the Reverend Mother complained of my 


tendencies to make Sinn Feiners of the pupils. I said, "I have 
never mentioned the name Sinn Fein in the class. I am not a 
Sinn Feiner at all. I am a Republican. But I have never told 
the children what I am." And she said, "But at the same time there 
is something there." And she finally brought it out with a great 
burst that I was too Irish. And I asked her if she ever heard of 
an Englishwoman being too English, or a Frenchwoman being too 
French; and it was not a crime for me to be too Irish. Then she 
said, "You must keep to the textbook in teaching history." I 
said, "If I keep to the textbook, the senior girls will fail in the 
examination, because there is not enough in it." That was not 
exactly what she meant, and I told her what she meant. "You 
want me to teach Irish history from the English point of view. I 
would no more do that than as a Catholic I would teach the history 
of the Reformation from the Protestant point of view." And 
whether you are Catholic or Protestant or nothing at all, you can 
perfectly understand that I would not teach the Protestant point 
of view against my own than you would, if you were a Protestant, 
teach the Catholic point of view against your own. Naturally, the 
teaching of all history must be colored by the point of view of the 
country in which it is taught. I think before this war there was 
an idea that history should be wholly colorless; that it should be 
taken from state documents. If there is anything that this past war 
has taught the world it is that of all the lies that it is possible to 
tell, that official documents are the biggest lies. I have friends who 
were in the war who told me exactly how these official documents 
were compiled. It is very interesting for the historian and I don't 
think — 

Chairman Howe: Please keep to the recital of the Irish situation, 
Miss MacSwiney. 

The Witness: I am sorry. Please pull me up if I say things I 
ought not to say. I have said that about the school to show you 
the type of mind that was engendered in our country. The Reverend 
Mother hinted to me that they would have to reduce the staff. I 
think I was expected to take the hint that I was to be the one dis- 
missed, so I said to her, "Now, Mother, I am the senior teacher 
here. Therefore, I take it for granted that I am not the one to be 
dismissed." She could not take it for granted at all. I said, "Why, 
then? Am I incompetent?" And she had to say I was not. I said, 
"Now, look here, if you dismiss me in reducing the staff, it simply 
means that you are dismissing me because I am an Irish Republican. 
You are dismissing me because of my political opinions. If you 
say that, well and good. Bui I will not permit myself to be dis- 


missed on any other ground." There were three teachers in that 
division of the school. And all three teachers got notice that in 
consequence of changes in the school during the coming summer, 
we could not consider ourselves engaged for the next year. We 
were at liberty to get another post, and they were at liberty to get 
other services. That was the quietest way to get rid of a trouble- 
some person. It does not sound very nice, and I do not want to be 
hard on that particular school, but I am doing that not to hurt 
them, but to show you the type of mind that was engendered by the 
British education in that country. They were afraid — afraid of 
offending the rich people, who were mostly West Britons; afraid 
of offending the police authorities; afraid that anybody connected 
with them might be connected in any way with that very dangerous 
thing called Sinn Fein. When I was arrested on a Tuesday morning 
and released on Tuesday night, I went to school again on Wednesday 


Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: How is that school about being Republican 

A. Oh, everyone in Ireland is Republican now. 

Q. Does that include that school? 

A. Yes, of course. In the recent martyrdom of my brother, 
when prayers were being said for him and masses were being said 
for him, all the school children said prayers for him, and I am 
glad to say that that school sent me word through one of the nuns 
that they had done their share. All the children are all right and 
all the nuns are all right. I think there are several old ladies there 
yet who are very much afraid. But they are all right at heart. I 
was deeply grieved at their treatment of me, and still am deeply 
grieved because they did not dismiss me straight out. When they 
found out Easter week had changed the whole of the citizens, and 
there was a revulsion of feeling and indignation in the city because 
I was dismissed, they tried to say that I was not really dismissed; 
that it was a mistake. 

I have introduced this to show you the state of mind of a large 
number of the Irish people in 1916. It was the shooting of the 
leaders of the 1916 movement and the arrest of over two thousand 
people that woke up the ordinary man, who up to that time had been 
a home-ruler, perhaps, to realize that it was the same old fight 
over again in their generation, although they had not realized it up 


to that time; and that when England began shooting Irishmen, no 
matter what the Irishman's political opinions were, he must be 
right. From 1916 on Ireland became more and more consciously 
Republican in the hearts of the common people. They had, of 
course, been instinctively so. They became consciously so after 


The first chance they had to give expression to that was in the 
general election of 1918. In that election Sinn Fein or the Repub- 
lican movement swept the country. There were very few con- 
stituencies in which there was a contest. But where there was a 
contest in the whole of Ireland, outside of Ulster, there was only 
one man got in who was a Redmondile, and that man was John 
Redmond's son, who, because of sympathy for his father and be- 
cause of his hold on the people of Waterford, was returned. 

Q. That is exclusive of Ulster? 

A. I am excluding Ulster. In the Parliamentary elections again 
matters were — 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was there a candidate representing the Na- 
tionalists in every county in that election? 

A. Oh, no; very few. There were twenty-five constituencies, 1 
think, in which Republicans were elected without any opposition. 

Q. There was very little opposition? 

A. Very little opposition. 

Q. But where there was a contest? 

A. Where there was a contest it was a contest between the Red- 
mondites and the Republicans, and Redmonclism was wiped out 
completely, except in Waterford, where it was not Redmondism 
that won, but a feeling for Redmond's son. 

In Ulster the case was rather peculiar. You have at present four 
men representing the Constitutionalist Home Rule Party in Ulster — 
five men. Four of them got in this way. There were eight seats in 
Ulster in which the proportion of, we will say Nationalists, using 
the word Nationalist in its broad sense — Ireland versus England — 
had a majority. But if Sinn Fein and Redmondites and Unionists 
went up, the three-cornered division would probably let the Union- 
ists in. On those seats, upon the advice of Cardinal Logue, there 
was a compromise suggested: that they should divide them equally. 
Our people wanted a much fairer thing than that. Our people 
wanted an election of the Nationalist population held, a kind of a 


plebiscite of the Nationalist population held on the preceding week, 
everyone to vote, and the seats to he given to either the Republican 
or the Redmondite, according to the votes cast. If that had been 
so, we would have had seven of the eight seats. Consequently the 
Redmondites did not agree to it. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Seven or eight seats in Ulster? 

A. Oh, yes; this does not deal with the contests with the Union- 
ists, but only with the contest between the Republicans and the 
Redmondites. They would not agree to this plebiscite, so it was 
either let them have half the seats or give them to the Unionists. 
I mean the risk would be letting the Unionists slip in. So the people 
agreed to halve them, and that is why you have a few representa- 
tives still of Redmond's party. 

With regard to the general election of 1918, it was 80 per cent. 
Republican. It was claimed by the British Government and by our 
opponents that it did not represent a Sinn Fein election or a Repub- 
lican election, but an anti-parliamentarian election. It was an anti- 
Redmond election rather than a pro-Republican election. And they 
said that ever so many people had got tired of a parliamentary 
policy and were willing to give Sinn Fein a chance. We knew it 
was not so, but of course they had a certain amount of plausibility 
behind their argument. And so it was not until 1919 and 1920 that 
we were able to counter that and prove that it was false by the 
municipal and county elections. It is true that every candidate 
who went up had to take the Republican pledge. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: What was that pledge? 

A. "I pledge my allegiance to Dail Eireann and the Parliament 
of Ireland." I do not know the exact words, but it was pledging 
allegiance to the Irish Republican parliament and renouncing every- 
thing English. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Every candidate? 

A. Every candidate, yes, who received Republican support. But 
some said, after the Republican victory in 1918: "Even so, the 
candidates were Republican, but we have people voting for the 
Republican candidates not because they were Republicans, but be- 
cause they were anti-parliamentarian. They were sick of parlia- 
mentarianism." And so when the municipal and county elections 
came and were overwhelmingly Republican, even more so than the 
general elections had been, that argument was killed. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: That was the county and municipal 
election of 1920? 



A. Yes. In spite of the fact thai in the meantime proportional 
representation laws had been passed by the House of Commons for 
Ireland for the purpose of spoiling the Republican elections and 
getting in candidates who would not otherwise have got in. Our 
people had from 1905 advocated proportional representation. And 
so when it was passed by the House of Commons it was opposed, 
not by us, because we welcomed it, but by the Carsonites. And 
the result showed that they had good reason to be afraid of it. 
For the first time we have Irish members in the Belfast corporation. 
We have Irish Republican members in county councils that before" 
were wholly Unionist. We have won all over the country, and have 
lost nothing. Probably in the south and west there are Unionist 
members on the councils who might not have been there otherwise: 
but we have no fear whatever of Unionists getting on, providing 
they get on fairly and in proper proportion. We do not dread 
proportional representation, and you have a proof of that by what 
I have given you and what you get in the daily newspapers. Pro- 
portional representation was passed to ruin the Irish Republican 
elections. But the only people who opposed it were the Carsonites. 

I told you I would say something more about my brother's activi- 
ties. I don't think there is anything else about the present situation 
before I come to that. 




Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Before that, while it is a very well-known 
subject in England, one of the Commission has asked you to briefly 
sketch the Act of Union, it being claimed by many persons that 
there is some parallel between the efforts of certain states in the 
American union to secede and the efforts of the Irish people to get 
their independence. Do you understand what I mean? 

A. Oh, quite, Mr. Walsh. 

Q. Give the date of the Act of Union and what attitude the Irish 
people take toward it. 

A. I would like to deal first with the suggestion that there is 
any parallel between the fight between your north and south against 
secession. If you want any parallel you will have to go back to 
1776, and not to 1862. That is the parallel, and not the war for 


secession. And I would like to say in connection with this that you 
had far less reason to secede from your mother country than we 
had, because she was never our mother country. We are a distinct 
race. (Continued applause.) 

Chairman Howe: Please let the witness go on without interrup- 

The Witness: I am sure you will not mind doing that, because 
I am sure I am taking up much of the Commission's valuable time. 

We are a different people. As I told you this morning, they 
tried to kill our language and make us forget it. But you were 
the same people, many of you. But you were not going to permit 
them to take away your liberties, and so you set up a republic of 
your own. That is the only liberty. And you became a colony 
naturally in the first place. Your liberty was never filched from 
you. Our liberty was filched from us. 


A parallel with your war of secession is the parallel between 
Ulster and the rest of Ireland today. And if you maintain that you 
were justified in waging a long war of five years which nearly 
broke President Lincoln's heart, if you were justified in fighting 
that war rather than let a part of your country secede, then you 
must admit that we are justified in fighting for a century, if need 
be, rather than let a part of Ireland secede. The parallel is the 
war between north and south as far as Ulster and the rest of Ireland 
are concerned. But between England and Ireland your Revolution- 
ary War is the parallel. 


The Act of Union was signed by King George III in 1801. He 
was your enemy as well as ours. Ireland had always had her own 
parliament. But Poyning's Law of 1494, and what is known as the 
Sixth of George I, passed in 1719, I think — I am not certain, but 
it was the sixth act of George I's reign, anyway — -those two laws 
destroyed all the powers of the Irish Parliament. Poyning's Law 
said that no laws could be made in Ireland or for Ireland without 
the consent of the king and the privy council of England. That 
was so that no law for the benefit of Ireland, Irish commerce, or 
Irish trade could be passed, unless the English king and the English 
council were quite convinced that it would not interfere with any- 


thing they wanted. The Sixth of George I went a step further, and 
declared that all laws passed in England were binding on Ireland. 
That distinction is quite clear. The first said that all laws passed 
in Ireland must be approved in England. The second one, passed 
nearly three centuries later, said that all laws passed in England 
would become operative in Ireland. And thus those two laws 
ruined all of the power of the Irish Parliament. The 1782 move- 
ment followed very largely from the example of your War of Inde- 
pendence. Ireland could not see why she could not follow your 
example. But just as in the beginning of your war you had no 
idea of seceding from your mother country, so those in the Irish 
movement of 1782 had no idea of breaking connection with the 
English crown. They wanted what they called "the King, Lords, 
and Commons of Ireland." They wanted an Irish Parliament sepa- 
rate from that of England, but the English king was to be the ruler 
in both countries. After a great deal of work that was passed in 
1782. But the Act of Union, definitely renouncing all power of 
Ireland to pass laws, was passed in 1801. 

Arthur Griffith has often had this sneer thrown at him, that he 
wanted to create another Grattan's Parliament. But this is not true. 
That parliament was elected on a purely Protestant franchise. Its 
executive was appointed, not elected. And still, in spite of those 
defects, when the parliament turned its attention to Irish trade and 
Irish development, they increased the prosperity of the country to 
such an extent in the space of twelve years that the English govern- 
ment called a halt immediately, and said, "This will never do." And 
so Pitt began to put his clever mind to work to see what could be 


To go back a little bit. When your war was on with England, 
and England's plan was to raise an army in Ireland to send over to 
fight you, Ireland declined. She also wanted to bring in about three 
or four thousand Hessians to guard the Irish coast, while she was 
sending over an Irish army to defeat the Americans. The Irish 
people said "No, thank you. You can send your Hessians where 
you like. We are not going to fight Americans and we are going 
to take charge of our own coast." But there was no anti-English 
movement there at all. They found Ireland so strong on that that 
they were obliged to give in. Consequently, you got the Hessians 
and we stayed at home. 



Now, we wanted free trade in Ireland. And when the Volunteers 
were formed and got their power they began to say they could not 
see why Ireland should not have the right to trade abroad if she 
wanted to. She was not allowed to. And so she demanded free 
trade — the right to trade where she liked. And there is a very 
famous march of the Volunteers in Dublin when they took up their 
position before the House of Parliament with a cannon trained on 
the House, and they put a motto on the cannon, "Free Trade or 
This." I think there is a very striking parallel there between your 
position in 1774 and this. You wanted free trade and you wanted 
the right to settle your own taxation, and not to pay taxation where 
you had no representation. That act resulted in Grattan's Parlia- 
ment. It had its disabilities, but it doubled Ireland's trade in a 
short time, and made it very prosperous. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Miss MacSwiney, just what years are you 
talking about? 

A. That was in 1782. The Parliament lasted until 1800. But it 
really was effective only about ten years, because intrigues destroyed 
its power. 

Q. The prosperity you mentioned was during that period? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did building develop as well as trade? 

A. Yes. But you must remember that the Irish people at that 
time were ignorant, and being ignorant, they were poor. The 
Catholics, then as now, were in the majority. But the Catholics 
did not have a vote. The mass of the population had no represen- 
tation whatever in the government. Grattan and Flood and Hely 
Hutchinson were all of them Protestants. No Catholic could sit in 
the House of Parliament. It was a crime punishable by death to 
follow a Catholic service. No Catholic could own land or lend 
money on land. No Catholic could lend money and take in turn 
a mortgage on land, because that would mean that the land might 
revert to the hands of Catholics, which was against the law. No 
Catholic could own a horse worth more than five pounds. If he 
did, any Protestant could come up to him on the streets and say, 
"I would like that horse. Here is five pounds. You may sell it 
to me." An incident like that happened with a great-granduncle 
of my own. He was a priest, and had a valuable horse, because 
he had long distances to go to see sick people. One day he was 
held up by a terrible scoundrel who was well known in the neigh- 


borhood, and he was ordered to dismount from the horse and turn 
it over. Instead, he put spurs to the horse and got away. But he 
knew that would save him only for a few hours, so he went to the 
Protestant minister, who was a great friend of his, and explained 
to him. And he said. "That is easy. You give me the horse — sell 
it to me. and 1 will loan it back to you." And he did, and kept 
the horse. And that shows another thing — the extraordinarily 
friendly relations between ministers of religion of different faiths 
when the country was in such a state that a Catholic did not dare 
to show his face on his own street. 

The franchise, then, was restricted. Only Protestants could sit 
in Parliament. But they were Irishmen, and they believed that the 
development of their country was necessary. Grattan's Parliament 
had its disabilities, but it was an honest attempt to develop Ireland 
for the Irish. And one of the first things we shall do, I hope, 
when we have cleared out the army of occupation, will be to take 
up the bones of Grattan. who is buried in Westminster at the feet 
of Castlereagh, one of the most infamous villains in history, and 
we will take them back to Ireland. 


Pitt decided that the Irish Parliament was inconsistent with the 
rights of England and that it was injuring English trade. I would 
recommend to you to read a book by Mrs. Stopford Green, "The 
Making of Ireland and Its Undoing," which will tell you how- 
England has deliberately destroyed Irish industries whenever they 
conflicted with her own. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Do you know, Miss MacSwiney, the name of 
the book which has been published which is a compilation of all 
the statutes passed by the British Parliament hostile to Irish indus- 
tries, and also indicates the speeches made on that subject in the 
English Parliament? 

A. No, I do not, but you can find out, I think, from Mr. Fawcitt. 

Q. I understand there is such a book that contains all the hostile 
statutes and the purpose of them and the speeches made about them. 

A. I am sorry I haven't it with me. But we are now living 
history so fast that the events of a few years ago seem very far 
away indeed. But if you want to know the purposes of England 
in Ireland, the book of which I spoke, "The Grammar of Anarchy,'" 
containing the statements of Sir Edward Carson, is quite sufficient, 
and if you read it you will understand why an Irish Republican 


got a term of imprisonment for having it in his possession as sedi- 
tious literature. 

There are many instances of English statutes destroying Irish 
industries. One of the statutes of William III was against the Irish 
woollen industry. It was better wool than the English wool and it 
was quite as cheap. Consequently it got a better market on the 
Continent. There is actually a petition in the English archives from 
the merchants of England to William III asking him point blank 
to destroy the woollen industry in Ireland. They give their reason: 
We cannot sell our wool because the Irish wool is better. It sounds 
very nice. Nowadays they do it more diplomatically. William 
promised them that on the opening of Parliament he would see what 
he could do about that. And he did. He put a tax of four shillings 
a pound on Irish wool. And of course ytfu cannot expect a French 
merchant to pay that much tax on Irish wool when English wool is 
much cheaper and only a bit inferior. 


And then Pitt began his little tricks. By this time the Irish 
Volunteers began to admit Catholics to their ranks, and Catholics 
and Protestants all over the country began to work harmoniously 
in the ranks of the Volunteers. At this time there was a dispute 
between Flood and Grattan as to whether they would work first for 
Catholic emancipation or work first for the development of the 
franchise and the solidification of the liberty they had won. They 
disagreed on that point. Grattan was for Catholic emancipation. 
But as a Catholic I would say that Flood was right. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Both Flood and Grattan were Protestants? 

A. Oh, yes, they were both Protestants. Catholics had no say 
whatever for thirty-five years afterwards. Another Protestant, the 
Earl of Charlemont, was commander-in-chief of the Volunteers. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Was there not a certain class of Protestants 

A. Oh, yes. Everyone had to be a forty-shilling freeholder in 
order to vote. There were large masses of the population excluded, 
even though they were Protestants. 

Q. Did Nonconformists vote? 

A. Yes. When Catholics finally got the vote, in 1829, there was 
a rather interesting thing in connection with that. Up to that time 
it had been forty-shilling freeholders who were allowed to vote. 
Immediately there was a nice little addition passed. It was not 


forty-shilling freeholders any longer, but ten-pound freeholders. 
The result was to knock out of voting a large part of the Catholic 
population that did not have ten pounds. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: It was true all over the world at 
that time that there was a property qualification. 

A. Yes. but the forty-shilling law held in England. The ten- 
pound law applied only to Ireland, you see. 

The Earl of Charlemont was commander-in-chief of the Volun- 
teers. He was a very good man, no doubt, but he was a very timid 
man in some respects. He was timid very largely in being afraid 
of new innovations. He was afraid of Catholic emancipation. And 
Pitt worked on his horror and dread of Catholic emancipation until 
he split the Volunteers over it. Always the same British policy — 
divide and conquer. The Volunteers split over the Earl of Charle- 
mont's resignation. The others wanted to keep the Volunteers 
intact and have Catholics admitted. The Earl of Charlemont would 
not have the Catholics admitted, and the Volunteers split over that. 
The Earl of Charlemont was a timid man who was afraid, even at 
that time, that the pope would come over and do terrible things 
in Ireland. Having split the Volunteers, the next thing was to dis- 
band them- When Charlemont had them disbanded, those who 
would not disband formed themselves into United Irishmen, a defi- 
nite body announcing a Republican policy and declaring for the 
Irish Republic. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What year was that? 

A. 1795, 1796, and 1797. 


They sent to America for American help and sympathy, and they 
sent to France, and Napoleon was thinking about helping us. But 
all the great powers have been willing to help us only when it is 
for their own interests. I hope America will be an exception to that 
rule. France was at war with England, and she sent over an expe- 
dition to Ireland, just as Germany would have gladly sent over an 
expedition to Ireland in the present war. Ireland would have wel- 
comed the Germans just as she did the French. She had a right to 
get any help she could in the struggle with the enemy. Not one of 
your people would deny that, if you would put justice before every- 
thing else. Many people are afraid of the truth. There are a great 
many good people who will tell the truth and nothing but the truth. 
But the whole truth sometimes frightens them. And I have been 


told that I am likely to alienate a great deal of American sympathy 
by acknowledging the plain truth that we would have taken German 
help if we had got it in 1916. If that is so, I ask Americans of 
that opinion to try and let their sense of justice get the upper hand 
of their prejudices. The fact that the person who might have helped 
us was an enemy of their — 

Senator Walsh: They were not an enemy of ours then. 

The Witness: No, not an enemy of yours then. We were not 
pro-German in the sense that we wanted Germany instead of Eng- 
land. We were not pro-German in the sense that we wanted Ger- 
many to dominate Europe. If Germany had treated us as England 
has treated us, she would have got the same treatment that we are 
giving England. I do not want to be misunderstood, and I am not 
going to purchase your sympathy by the sacrifice of one iota of 
the truth. The truth is just that. We were pro-Irish always. If in 
order to help our country an alliance with any other country is 
necessary, we were perfectly justified in forming that alliance. We 
would be sorry if that alliance would alienate anybody with whom 
we want to be friendly. Ireland would always want to be allied 
with France rather than Germany, because France was near us for 
many years and Germany was England's first cousin, say what you 
will. Our natural inclination was to sympathize with France. But 
if we could have got Germany as our ally in our war with England, 
we would have taken her. I must say that because I don't want 
to be afraid of the truth, and I don't want to purchase any sympathy 
by denying the truth. 

Chairman Howe: We were at the Act of Union. 


The Witness: The Act of Union was passed in that way. First, 
the Volunteers were alienated from each other. Having alienated 
them, they were suppressed. A fresh supply of Hessians were 
brought over and let loose on the country. I cannot dare to tell 
you of the horrors that were committed by those Hessians and the 
English yeomen in our own country. 

Q. In 1798? 

A. Yes, in 1798. When England dares to tell you of the atroci- 
ties of other countries, she is simply dishing up some of her own 
atrocities in Ireland, or perhaps in Egypt and India also. 

Now, at that time all the Irish Volunteers who were willing to 
be Irish first, formed themselves into the secret society of the United 


Irishmen. It had to be a secret society, when if it were known to 
be in existence every member of it would be killed on the spot. 
They formed their society in secret and then entered into the '98 
insurrection for a republic. This was exactly what Pitt wanted. 
He wanted an insurrection in order to smash the growing liberty of 
the people and give him an excuse for the Union. History is re- 
peating itself today. In order to get that insurrection, which the 
people did not want, because they were not ready for an insurrec- 
tion, he instituted a system of horrors similar to those of the Black- 
and-Tans today. The English yeomen and Hessians were just like 
the Black-and-Tans today. Devastations, lootings, murders, and 
burnings took place all over the country to exasperate the people 
into insurrection before the people were ready for it. That insur- 
rection followed, and the result was that the Act of Union was 


^ou have the same thing being done in Ireland today. Lloyd 
George wants to get the Irish people into the open again so he can 
shoot them down. I believe that their prime motive in letting my 
brother die was just that. Our secret service, you know, has not 
done badly. They have gotten a lot of information about the 
enemy's plans. We know that today they want the Volunteers in 
Ireland to come out into the open. And they thought that since 
my brother had the confidence and affection of the Volunteers of 
Cork, that if they let him die, the Volunteers would lose their heads 
and come out into the open, and then they could shoot them down. 


Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Might we not close the question that one 
of the members of the Commission has asked about, the Act of 
Union, when it was passed, and what the circumstances were? 

A. Well, I want to give you the exact particulars of the passing 
of the Union, and I will just recapitulate what the Parliament was 
at that time. It was purely Protestant. It was made up of Protes- 
tant landlords from England — placemen. As Miss Addams has 
just said, the franchise was not democratic anywhere in the world 
. at that time, and I do not think you had any in America. They had 
in England, as in Ireland, too, what used to be called pocket 
boroughs. That is. there were certain districts which returned 


parliamentary members where there was really no population at 
all. There was one district in Ireland, a pocket borough in the 
possession of a West Briton of that day — that is to say, a man whose 
interests were centered in England. In that particular district there 
was a public house and a little hamlet of about ten houses, two 
of which were inhabited by Protestants. Only two people in that 
hamlet had the vote, because they were the only Protestants. And 
they returned two members to Parliament. There were other 
boroughs in which there were a half dozen houses represented by 
two or three members. 

Q. Senator Walsh: This was the Irish parliament? 

A. Oh, yes. But the same thing held true in England. 

Q. You are explaining the make-up of the Parliament that 
passed the Union? 

A. Yes, and I am explaining how it was that a Parliament 
apparently composed of Irishmen passed the Act of Union. I have 
told you that this Parliament was made up of Irish landlords and 
English placemen — that is to say, a man who had performed some 
service for the King, and was given land in Ireland, and was there- 
fore entitled to sit in the Irish House of Parliament. But nobody 
would call him an Irishman! That Parliament, great as was the 
work it did, was largely composed of English placemen, and the 
Patriotic Party was small from the beginning. The Patriotic Party 
was the Grattan and Flood party. That Patriotic Party was in- 
creased, because even these placemen, when they got land in Ireland, 
wanted the land to be as prosperous as it could. And so, unless 
they got orders to vote against a measure from the people who gave 
them their places, they generally voted to help Irish industries. But 
that was the composition of the Parliament. You can see that it 
voiced only the minority of the people, because Catholics had no 
representation at all. In the second place, it voiced only a small 
minority of that minority. And since there was open voting, no 
man who had a vote dared vote against his landlord. If he did, 
then he lost his holding at once. If you quite grasp that, you see 
it was quite easy to corrupt a parliament of that kind. Pitt began 
by giving a good many placemen the right to hold land in Ireland. 
It might be only a few acres: that made no matter; they were land- 
owners. Then he got these placemen to buy up all the pocket 
boroughs. You had, we will say, a borough there which contained 
nobody, but returned two members to Parliament. These were sold 
for fifty thousand pounds, sixty thousand pounds, or ten thousand 
pounds only, if they were small ones. But they were openly sold. 
The transaction of the buying and selling of seats can be found in 


certain documents, even to the present day. And anybody who 
will take the trouble to read the life and letters of Lord Castlereagh, 
which is published in six volumes, I believe, can see how openly 
they boasted of the buying and selling of parliamentary seats. 
There is a poem in Ireland that begins: "How did they pass the 
Union? By forgery and fraud; by perjury and corruption of every 
kind." I do not know the rest of it. And when I emphasize that 
point, I want to emphasize with it that it was not the Irish people 
who sold their Parliament. The Irish people, the bulk of them, 
had no voice in their country at all. The majority of the Protes- 
tants in the country, who had no franchise, would not have done 

Now, suppose that tomorrow morning you had a Congress who 
were in English pay and under English influence. I am only taking 
that as a supposition. You may be dominated by men under Eng- 
lish influence, perhaps, because they have their roots in the May- 
flower; but they are not in England's pay. But these were men 
placed in the Irish parliament to vote for what England wanted 
them to vote for. and they carried out the contract. Suppose that 
Congress tomorrow passed a vote by a majority handing you over 
and deciding that you would have a union with England, and that 
the English king was to be your king again. Or suppose that it 
passed a vote handing you over to Germany. I do not think the 
majority of the American people could possibly be said to desire 
a union with England or Germany under those circumstances. Yet 
these are the circumstances under which England got the Act of 
Union passed. She bought up all the pocket boroughs and placed 
sufficient men in the Irish Parliament to pass the Act of Union. 
And that was how the Act of Union was passed. When England 
says, "The Irish people passed the Act of Union and wanted to be 
united with us," go and tell her to read history — read Lecky, who 
certainly is not an Irishman. Froude, the historian, will tell the 
truth. Gladstone himself says it is the blackest stain on England's 
history, the Act of Union. 


And even then they did not keep their word. When they passed 
the Union they made a solemn promise that the English and Irish 
exchequers were to be kept separate. The reason was that Ireland 
had a national debt of two and one-half million pounds. England 
had a national debt of over two hundred million pounds. Those 
seem very small sums in today's computations. After the Act of 


Union in 1801, Ireland's debt was twenty-one million pounds. 
Where did it get up to that sum? She bribed these men, England 
did, in the House of Parliament to pass the Union, and then she 
paid the bribes out of Irish money. And then she promised that 
the exchequers would be separate. In 1817 the English national 
debt, owing to the Napoleonic Wars, had gone up to something like 
four hundred fifty million pounds. The Irish national debt had 
gone up, I think, to something like twenty-five million. And Eng- 
land suggested that it would be very nice for Ireland if they amalga- 
mated their exchequers. The Irishmen representing Ireland in the 
English Parliament at that time did not think it would be nice for 
Ireland to saddle Ireland with that debt. But of course they were 
outvoted. So the two exchequers were amalgamated. One clause 
of the Act of Union was that they should not be amalgamated. But 
they were amalgamated as soon as it suited England. From that 
time to the present day Ireland has been in the control of England. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Grattan and his party then opposed the Act 
of Union? 

A. Oh, yes; absolutely. 

Q. Was it just before the Act of Union that Grattan was carried 
into the House of Parliament on his sick bed to make his protest? 

A. Yes, he was carried in, practically a dying man, and made an 
eloquent protest against it. 

Q. What was the vote? Was it close? 

A. I cannot recall it. It was close. 


I would like to say another thing about financial matters of that 
period. Before the war, while the Home Rule bill was being dis- 
cussed, we were told that Ireland could not possibly govern herself. 
As it was, she could not pay her own way; that England had to 
subsidize her to the extent of half a million a year; and what would 
she do if she were her own mistress and England would not be able 
to subsidize her? This was one of the economic points brought up 
against Irish Home Rule. Ireland never got a subsidy of half a 
million a year from England. She got it one year, and I will tell 
you how it happened. The old-age pension was passed, giving to 
each old person over seventy several shillings a week. 

Q. Chairman Howe: This was quite recent? 

A. Yes, it was quite recent, but I must go back to give you an 
idea. You can get from reliable statistics an idea of how many 


old people in the country there ought to be. Owing to England's 
misgovernment of the country and the way she had impoverished 
it, the proportion of old people in Ireland was perfectly abnormal. 
All the young men and women had gone out of the country. In- 
deed, their emigration was encouraged and subsidized by England. 
In consequence, the proportion of old people was much greater than 
it was in any other country. The result was that that year there 
was a deficit of a half million, and England used that one year to 
say that she was subsidizing the Irish exchequer to the extent of 
half a million pounds a year. 

Q. Chairman Howe: What year was that? 

A. That was 1912, I think. 

When the Home Rule Bill became an issue of practical politics, 
they wanted to adjust the financial relations between the two coun- 
tries, and consequently there was a commission appointed by the 
King to inquire into the financial condition of Ireland from 1817 
— that was the date the exchequers were combined — to 1908. That 
was about one hundred years. This was known as the Childers 
Commission, presided over by the uncle of the present Erskine 
Childers. It was an English commission appointed by the King. 
They went into all the statistics from 1817 to 1908. They pub- 
lished their statistics. That can be found in all the blue books. I 
am giving you only the results now. They found that from that 
period Ireland had paid all her own expenses, every single penny — 
all the expenses, including the army and navy expenses in Ireland, 
which is not really an Irish expense. She had covered the whole 
of it, and had in addition paid three hundred sixty-nine million 
pounds into the English exchequer. So that during the period when 
we were supposed to be an impoverished country, we had paid three 
hundred sixty-nine millions into the English treasury. 

Q. Chairman Howe: That was from income taxes, excise duties, 
and so forth? 

A. Yes, all the income of the country, after the expenses were 
paid. And yet England has the impertinence to say that Ireland is 
a bankrupt country! Those facts are given by the Parliamentary 
Commission which began sitting in 1908 and reported and gave its 
findings in 1911. And remember what we had been through during 
that time — the Tithe War, the Fenian movement, the Land Wars, 
and all those experiences. We had been through the terrible period 
of the famine. And yet all that expense was paid for by Ireland, 
and that three hundred sixty-nine million pounds left over. I think 
that when we send out the army of occupation, we are entitled to 
get back that three hundred sixty-nine million pounds. 


Senator Walsh : Let us get ours first. 

The Witness: Yes, we will forgive her every penny of it if she 
will only take out her army and let us alone. 

I would like to suggest that the first relief ship that came to 
relieve the distress of America came from Ireland. 




Mr. F. P. Walsh: You might discuss, while we are on this point, 
some of the great benefit that has been given to the people of Ire- 
land by allowing them to purchase their land. 

Q. Chairman Howe: When you discuss that, will you not discuss 
that land levy, please? How much alien landlordism still exists, 
how the people were allowed to purchase land, and so forth? 

A. I will do my best, but I cannot be very accurate on per- 
centages. The landlord question was very vital to us. While it was 
a sectional war, yet the goal all the time was freedom, and therefore 
those of you who have gone into the study of history a bit, just 
take a broad view of that. It was necessary to get it done, and we 
do not worry very much about statistics. But I will do my best. 

The land acts have been very beneficial to the country. But they 
were not passed by England to benefit the country. They were 
passed by the campaign in Ireland of Parnell and the Land League, 
in the early eighties, I believe. That part of history has not been 
written yet, at least not very fully. I have never read it, at least. 
I cannot give you full details, but this, at all events, is the outline 
of it. When Parnell carried on his Constitutional Movement, he 
felt that it was very necessary to get the land for the people. The 
farmers could do nothing, because if there was an adverse vote in 
the district against a landowner's plans or against England, the 
farmers all got notice of ejectment. They had no security of tenure 
for their lands. It certainly was a wise move for the people to get 
the land tenure fixed. But England never gave those land acts as 
an act of justice. When the Fenians blew up Clerkenwell prison, 
Gladstone took it into his head in 1871 that there was something 
behind the movement, and he had better do something for those 
people. I could not give the details of that Act, but I will come 
to the last Act, the Wyndham Act, which has been very beneficial. 

Q. Chairman Howe: What date? 

A. In 1903, I think. That Act has been very beneficial. It has 
enabled the farmers to buy out their land. They could pay rent 


for twenty or twenty-five years, and at the end of that time their 
land was their own. 

Q. Senator Walsh: They paid so much on the principal as well 
as the interest? 

A. Yes. Immediately that Act was passed, the farmers started 
to improve their land. They did not do it before, because they 
had no security of tenure. Do you know, in that period if a mother 
put a clean pinafore on her child, she had her rent raised from 
two to ten pounds a year. And any woman would say, "Is it not 
better for a child to have a dirty pinafore than to have the rent 
raised?" And that is why you hear the Irish described as a lazy, 
dirty people sometimes. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Did that apply to the whole country? 
A. Yes, to Ulster just as much as the rest. That Land Act gave 
the people the right to purchase their farms. The instant the farm- 
ers could purchase, they went on improving and improving and 
improving. Why? Because they knew they were doing that for 
their sons and their daughters, and they knew they would not be 
thrown out of it next week. If a man put a new paling up around 
his field, he knew that his rent would go up several pounds the 
next week, and consequently the paling was not put up. If too 
many improvements were made, the farmer could be ejected and 
lose them all. But the moment the farmers got their security, they 
improved their farms. And consequently you have a good many 
prosperous farms all over Ireland today. 

Q. How many farms have been converted in that way up to 
today? Two-thirds of them? 
A. I don't know. Perhaps. 
Senator Walsh: It is not as much as that. 
Q. Chairman Howe: And it has led to improvements? 
A. Yes. But the buildings! Some of them are very ugly. 
They do not build their houses beautiful. I wish we had a law to 
make them. At all events, the houses are comfortable, well built, 
and much better than the old unhygienic detached buildings. 

Q. How prosperous is the agricultural population of Ireland 

A. Of course, the agricultural population benefited by the war, 
as all agricultural populations did. They got high prices for their 
crops, as all of them did. Some of them were unpatriotic enough 
to sell too much of the country's food, and some of them had to 
be stopped. I do not know whether you know of the incident that 
happened in Dublin when the Volunteers stopped the exportation 
of food because they were sending too much of it away. A gentle- 


man in this country now, Mr. Lynch, was our food controller at the 
time, and he ordered that no more pigs should be exported. But 
the people did not think that the Irish government would have to 
be obeyed. There was a large consignment of pigs going off to 
England one night, and the food controller ordered them to be 
stopped. The pigs were taken off and turned into an abattoir and 
slaughtered, and the price was paid to the owner. That had to be 
done in a summary fashion, but it was a necessary act of govern- 


Q. There have been a number of statements made about eco- 
nomic embargoes on Ireland by the British government. Can you 
tell us anything about them? 

A. I know they have put an embargo on everything they could. 
They have put an embargo on our best port, the port of Queens- 
town. Once Queen Victoria visited us, and the sycophantic council 
of that day (for then it was only that kind they could get into the 
council) ordered in her honor that the port should be called 
Queenstown. But we do not recognize it as Queenstown. I would 
like our friends in America to get into the habit of calling it Cove, 
the Irish name for it. 


There was a question about one hundred million pounds loaned 
to farmers in Ireland. That one hundred million pounds was very 
beneficial, but I would like you to understand that the security 
given by the farmers was quite adequate, and that the people who 
are paying the money are Irish. It was advanced by England for 
the time being, but it is Ireland that is paying the debt. But do 
not let them hypnotize you into believing that that money was given 
by England, for it was not. England and France borrowed huge 
sums from America during the war, and they borrowed it without 
giving you security. But you do not say that you have given them 
a present of all their war debt. And this loan is very largely paid 
back already, and paid back out of Irish money. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: And it was paid back to absentee land- 
lords and those who have succeeded to their estates, was it not? 

A. Yes. And there is a very large number of farms where the 
payments have been completed, and that money has all gone back 


to England. I believe the great bulk of thai money lias been already 
paid back. 

Q. Chairman Howe: To what extent has alien landlordism pre- 
vailed as it did in the Hungry Forties? 

A. Not much. There are very few big landlords today. They 
may spend a part of the year in England or abroad, but generally 
those that are left spend a part of the year in Ireland. The alien 
landlord of the early nineteenth century has gone. There are very 
few of them left now. 

Q. That question does not figure at all any more? 

A. No, not much any more. 

Now, about the embargoes. I wish I had Mr. Fawcitt here. He 
has all that on his fingertips and could give it better than I. 

Senator Walsh: He is coming, I believe. 

The Witness: Will you ask him, then? 

Chairman Howe: I did not know but what you are familiar with 
the industrial issues. 

The Witness: I am, but I cannot give you exact figures as he 


Q. Senator Walsh: Miss MacSwiney, I would like to have you 
give us for the record just when there was organized in Ireland the 
de facto Republican government, who organized it, how long the 
Parliament continued to meet in the open, when it began to meet 
secretly, and if it is meeting now, how long it will continue. 

A. I would like to answer the last question first, because it is 
meeting and will continue to do so. 

Q. I would like to get in the record how much of local govern- 
ment there is and how it is functioning, and if it will continue to 

A. The Republic was declared in 1916, but for two years there 
was no government to function, until the general election of 1918. 

Q. In other words, you made your declaration of independence 
in 1916, but it took you two years to get your government organized 
so that it could function openly? 

A. Exactly. There were seven Irish Volunteer leaders in the 
Dublin General Postoffice on Easter Monday in 1916, who in the 
name of the Republican Army declared Ireland a free and inde- 
pendent Republic. They were Padraic Pearse, Thomas Clarke, 


John MacDermott, Connolly, Kent, Plunkett, and MacDonagh, and 
they were all executed for it afterwards. 

Q. Chairman Howe: They were executed for that offense — for 
signing your declaration of independence? 

A. Yes, that was the chief thing for which they were executed. 
Q. Senator Walsh: The elections took place in 1918? 
A. Yes. And immediately after the general elections the Re- 
publican Parliament got busy. 

Q. Were the members of that Republican Parliament the Re- 
publican members who were elected to the British Parliament from 
the boroughs or constituencies in Ireland? 
A. Yes. 

Q. So that upward of seventy-five men who received a majority 
as Republican members of the British Parliament at London from 
Ireland, these men met to form the Irish de facto Government? 
A. Right, quite right. 

Q. How many altogether were elected from Irish constituencies 
to the British Parliament? 
A. One hundred and three. 

Q. How many of that number met in Dublin, or wherever they 
met afterwards, to organize the Republican Government of Ireland? 
A. I think that at the very first meeting of Dail Eireann there 
were only 37, for all the others were in jail. 

Q. How many joined in the call? I want it for the record. 
A. I think it was 37. 
Q. How many went to England? 

A. None of the Republicans went to England. The only Irish 
who went were the Redmondites and the Carsonites. 

Q. It was alleged in America that sixty or seventy or so did 
not go to the British Parliament, and joined, either de facto or in 
person, to the call for an independent Parliament. 

A. Yes. You see, there were seventy-five members elected, but 
some of them were elected from two or three constituencies. Presi- 
dent de Valera was elected from three constituencies. 

Q. How many constituencies were represented at the first meet- 
ing, either by those present in person or in jail? 

A. I suppose it would be about sixty-nine men, but the con- 
stituencies represented were seventy-five. 

Q. So that seventy-five constituencies out of one hundred three 
sent representatives to get a Republican organization? 
A. Yes. 



Q. Where did they meet? 

A. In the Mansion House in Dublin. 

Q. But some of them were not there, because they were in jail. 

A. Yes. President de Valera was in jail, and my brother was 
in jail, and a number of others at that time. 

Q. What steps did they take? Was this first meeting in the 

A. Yes, oh, yes. 

Q. Now, give us the history of that organization. It is very 

A. As so many were in prison, the government elected was only 
provisional. Because you must remember that the cream of the 
men were in jail, and those who were left felt that they should 
wait until they got all their comrades together before electing a 
regular government. So they elected only a provisional govern- 
ment. That was in January, 1919. In March there was a general 
amnesty. It was in connection with the German plot idea of May, 
1918, that they were put into prison. In March, 1919, they let them 
all out. And then they had the election of the Irish Government. 
President de Valera was elected president, and Arthur Griffith was 
elected vice-president; and the names of the others I would rather 
not give for state reasons. Some of them are known and some of 
them are not known. 

Q. But a complete organization was effected? 

A. A complete organization was effected, and the first resolution 
to be passed was that Irish would be spoken in the Irish Parliament, 
although English could not under the circumstances be excluded 
entirely, and that all the records of the Parliament should be in 
Irish. English could not be kept out altogether, because some of the 
older men could not learn to speak Irish. But all the records are 
in Irish, and all who can speak Irish use it. 

Q. How long did they continue to function openly in the eyes 
of the British officials? 

A. I think the first attempt to smother them up was on the occa- 
sion of the American delegation's visit to Ireland in 1919. Senator 
Frank Walsh, you were on that delegation, I think. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: No, I'm not a senator. 

The Witness: I got mixed up, and it doesn't matter. Coming 
events cast their shadows before, perhaps. 


Mr. F. P. Walsh : Not for those who are here, with all due defer- 
ence to them. 

The Witness: You see, the Irish Parliament only held a few ses- 
sions in the open; and then the word was passed around that there 
was going to be a meeting of Dail Eireann, and the public was 
admitted. But the enemy did not get word beforehand. They really 
held their meetings in public for twelve months, or nearly twelve 
months at any rate. But they have been able to do almost as much 
meeting in secret. They immediately compiled statistics as to the 
conditions of the fisheries and of agriculture, and the condition of 
the ports, and the improvements that could be made. They have 
done all the ordinary work of government, and have done it very 
well and very effectively. 


Senator Walsh: Up to this time the municipal and county council 
members had not declared themselves openly and publicly as to 
whether they were still holding allegiance to the British Government 
or not? 

A. That is quite true. 

Q. Then the elections came, in 1920, when that issue was pre- 
sented for all candidates for office in Ireland? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Will you kindly state how many elected members to the 
municipal councils and county councils declared under oath their 
abandonment of allegiance to the British Government and swore 
their allegiance to the Irish Republic? 

A. All the county councils in the south and west of Ireland, in 
what are called the chief provinces, and I think three or four in 
Ulster. But all of the south and west. 

Q. What per cent, would that be? 

A. That would be twenty-seven out of thirty-two. 1 There are 
thirty-two counties in Ireland. There are nine in Ulster. Out of 
that nine in Ulster, there were four, I think — I am pretty certain 
of four — that declared themselves for Dail Eireann. 

Q. Senator Walsh: I have seen the statement in some English 
paper that ninety-one per cent, of county and municipal councils 
had declared their allegiance to the Irish Republic. 

A. It was fully ninety-one per cent. 1 

See note, page 155. 


Q. So that in 1920 you had, in addition to the Irish national 
Parliament, some ninety-one per cent, of the municipal and county 
councils recognizing the Irish Government and declaring that they 
no longer gave allegiance to the English Government? 

A. Right. 


Q. Now, to what extent did the courts and judicial functions 
of Ireland pass from the control of the British government to the 
Irish government itself? 

A. It passed almost ahsolutely. 

Q. Give us the figures, please. 

A. I do not know what you mean by figures. Wherever the 
Irish Republicans gained the elections — 

Q. What I want to do is to get what you claim the facts are, 
so that your friends in America can get the truth. 

A. Wherever the councils had declared allegiance to Dail 
Eireann — that was in ninety-one per cent, of the counties — the courts 
were established immediately. At first the courts were not noticed 
very much by the British Government. She did not like them, but 
she had no law which could absolutely forbid them. Arbitration 
courts were legal. And these courts, under the head of arbitration 
courts, began their functioning. 

Q. So that ninety-one per cent, of the elected representatives of 
the people established arbitration courts? 

A. Yes, certainly. But you must remember that they came on 
only gradually. 

Q. Yes, I understand. But previous to this movement the judi- 
cial control of Ireland was never a matter of local control; it was 
always a matter of British control? 

A. Yes, always. 

Q. So that the entire judiciary was appointed by the British 

A. Yes. 

Q. So what became of them? 

A. They sat in state in empty courts, surrounded by barbed wire 
and soldiers. And they waited for cases, and none came. In one 
case — I would like to have you notice that when the judge came to 
the city he was always lodged at one of the friendly houses in the 
city, in what would correspond to your Four Hundred, I suppose. 
And when the arbitration courts began to function, the Irish Parlia- 


ment said that these judges were forbidden to hold their courts. 
The result was that when the judge came to Cork there was no 
lodging for him. He could not sleep in the barracks, because it 
was against English law in some way. And so he had to sleep in 
the courthouse. 

Q. So that in Cork there was not only no court for the judge, 
but not even a bed? 

A. Yes, not even a bed. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Were there no hotels? 

A. There are hotels, but the judge, you see, in Ireland is always 
an obnoxious person. You see, he was in the pay of the enemy, 
and he was doing the enemy's business, and he always came sur- 
rounded with a great deal of police and military. And so he did 
not consider it safe to stay in the hotel. 

Q. How many of these judges have resigned their positions? 

A. Many of the magistrates have resigned. They sit in the petty 

Q. Are they elected officials? 

A. No. The Local Government Bill gave the right for nation- 
alists to become J. P.'s. But they have many of them resigned now. 

Q. But the judiciary, the English judiciary has practically dis- 

A. Yes. But they sit there yet for purposes of state, I think. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Now let us come to the police force. To 
what extent does the old Irish police force, the Royal Irish Con- 
stabulary, exist to this day? To what extent has the old Royal 
Irish Constabulary disappeared by resignations or by severing alle- 
giance to the British crown, and gone over to the Republican move- 

A. Several hundreds of them have resigned. I do not know 
how many of them have gone over to the Republican movement. 
They have not gone over as police. They would not be accepted 
as police. They have been trained very largely as spies, and they 
have been trained to spy on each other. When we set up a police 
force, it will be a police force such as the R. I. C. never was. 

Q. That force has largely broken down? 

A. Yes, although it has been largely recruited from England. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: I would like to ask Miss MacSwiney 
a question in regard to the resident magistrates. The resident magis- 
trate is a paid official? 

A. Yes, he is a paid official appointed by the British Government. 

Q. What has become of them? 

A. They have continued to sit in their courts. If a policeman 


catches something like a petty thief, he will bring them up before 
the court. But the court is empty most of the time. 

Q. Have not many of them resigned? 

A. No. not many. They have nice, comfortable jobs, you know, 
and are always selected from the anti-Irish population. Not many 
of them have resigned. 


Q. Commissioner Thomas: Does the authority of the Irish courts 
rest upon the consent of the people or upon some oilier force? 

A. Upon the consent of the population entirely. And I do not 
think anything could show the truth about the false contention put 
out by England that we are not a law-abiding people better than 
the success of these courts, with only moral force, in many cases, 
to enforce their decrees. We are a law-abiding people absolutely, 
if we are given a chance to have our own laws. 

I would like to stress the good the courts did in bringing together 
the people. Unionists brought their cases to the Irish courts. 
Protestants brought their cases to the Irish courts. And although 
they may not have ceased to be Unionists, they have come to the 
conclusion that if they want their claims settled, they must bring 
them into the Republican courts. There was one case where a 
Protestant landlord had a case which he felt he must have settled, 
and so he took it to the Irish courts. And his friends were shocked, 
and remonstrated. And he said, "I do not care. If I take it into 
the English courts I might get a just judgment, but it will not be 
obeyed. And if I take it into the Irish courts I will get a just judg- 
ment and it will be obeyed." And he did get a just judgment and 
it was obeyed. 

There is a rather interesting incident in connection with those 
courts. Three men were arrested for breaking clown a wall. They 
were convicted in a Republican court. One consented to repair the 
damage, and the other two refused. We have no jails. However, 
it happened to be on the coast of Galway. So these gentlemen were 
taken to one of these islands off the coast of Galway. They were 
given food and everything, for we believe in treating our prisoners 
humanely. After a couple of days the British police heard wheie 
they were, and went out in a boat to rescue them. But when the 
British police came out, these prisoners stoned the police and said 
to go away, that they were prisoners of the Irish republic and 
would not be molested. 



Q. Senator Walsh: Is nearly all the civil litigation and crimi- 
nal litigation carried on in these Irish courts, — in the Republican 
courts of Ireland? 

A. The civil litigation altogether. The criminal litigation would 
be a burden if there were much of it. But it is not an excessive 
exaggeration to say that there is no crime in Ireland. That would 
be true before the trouble started rather than now, since the Black - 
and-Tans came. In Ireland there is a custom that when a judge 
goes on circuit and has no serious cases to try, he is presented with 
a pair of white kid gloves. And there were sessions after sessions 
where the judges going around their circuits got white kid gloves. 
They often made a joke about it, that the judges should set up a 
glove shop. And that is an absolute fact. There may be little petty 
larceny cases and breach of promises and the like, and I think that 
is about the most serious thing. We occasionally have a murder 
case, but very, very rarely. 


And with a view to the English support of law and order in Ire- 
land, I would like to tell of the last murder case before I left Ire- 
land. A man named Quaid in County Clare in Ireland, a man with- 
out a good reputation, a blustering sort of a bully who took Eng- 
land's part in the war and advocated recruiting, and did his very 
best to get recruits for her. He was a man with a very hot temper. 
And sometime about a year and a half ago, — he was a publican, 
a saloon keeper — and he kicked one of his bar attendants to death. 
She was a woman. Kicked her to death absolutely. She was found 
dead in the yard the next morning. That man deserved to be hanged 
in any civilized country. His counsel made a very long speech in 
his behalf, showing that he was a very loyal subject, that he had 
done a great deal of recruiting for the army and had gotten a great 
many recruits, and that he asked for a light sentence. 

Q. Senator Walsh: This was in the British courts? 

A. Yes, in the British courts. He got a sentence of twelve 
months as a first-class misdemeanant, which meant that he could 
have his friends visit him, and his own clothes, and all the other 
privileges except that of walking out when he liked. So he got 
twelve months, when men who were found with revolvers in their 
pockets — which it is the right of a free man to carry if he likes — 
get from two to five years penal servitude. He got twelve months in 


the most comfortable prison they had. And the judge, in passing 
sentence, said they would make him as comfortable as they pos- 
sibly could. Six weeks afterwards the man was released. I believe 
he developed a headache or something like that. That is the way 
the English keep law and order in our country. 

Again, three policemen were caught red-handed in Aghada, not 
far from Cork, in the act of stealing. There were Americans there, 
and the policemen were accused and found guilty of stealing their 
property. About two months after that the Americans cleared out. 
They got a sentence of nine months each, I believe. But three days 
after your boys cleared out. they were released. That is keeping 
law and order. 


Another case of law and order 1 would like to mention is that of 
Hardy. Perhaps vou have heard of that before. It was in all the 
papers of England and Ireland. It was the case of a spy. That 
man got five years penal servitude, and the judge who sentenced him 
said his record was the very worst that he had ever come across in 
all his years of experience on the bench. About five months after 
he was incarcerated, he was released and sent to Ireland to see how 

many Sinn Feiners he could spy upon. He was sent to find out who 
the Sinn Fein leaders were, how they made their remarkable es- 
capes, and if they could not get hold of them. He visited Mr. Ar- 
thur Griffith and said that he had been a secret service man, and that 
his sympathies were very much for Ireland, and that he would like 
to help them if he could. He said that he knew all the movements 
of the enemy. He could tell them where Mr. Hamar Greenwood 
could be found if it was thought advisable to have him visit another 
planet, and he knew where Mr. Lloyd George could be found if they 
wanted to get him. Mr. Griffith listened to him very attentively and 
asked a few questions. What the man wanted was to get in touch 
with the Sinn Fein council. So Mr. Griffith listened to him appar- 
ently very favorably, and said, "Come back tomorrow morning and 
we will see what can be done to put your information before the 

council." And then Mr. Griffith said when he came back, "I have ar- 
ranged a meeting for you, and you be here tomorrow afternoon and 
we will see what can be done." He did arrange a meeting, not of 
the Sinn Fein Council, but of some newspaper correspondents, of 
some American and French and Danish and other correspondents. 
He had the only English newspaper man in Ireland he could trust, 


the London Daily Herald man. And of course he had some Irish- 
men. And they sat around and acted like a Sinn Fein council. 
But in case their accents might betray them, it was agreed that only 
the Irishmen should speak at all. Hardy was asked to tell his story. 
He said that on a certain night on Kingstown pier Sir Hamar Green- 
wood would be crossing to England, and it would be easy to get him. 
He was quite nervous when he started, but as he got along he got 
very fluent. When he got through Mr. Griffith got up and said, "Mr. 
Hardy, you think you have been speaking to a Sinn Fein Council. 
You have been speaking to a number of foreign press correspondents. 
They doubtless know already who sent you here. And now I want 
them to know your record." And he gave them all his record, and 
gave him until nine o'clock in the evening to get out of the country. 
Hardy begged to have until eight o'clock the next morning, and this 
was granted; but he was advised not to be found in Ireland after 
eight o'clock the next morning. 

This is the way the English keep law and order in Ireland. They 
take criminals out of the jails and send them to spy on the Irish. 
And they take them out of the jails and make Black-and-Tans of 
them. There is a friend of mine who was temporarily the prison 
physician at Portland prison, and one day he met a man on the 
street in the Black-and-Tan uniform and stopped him and said, 
"Where did I meet you?" And the man said, "Oh, doctor, don't you 
know? I was at Portland prison when you were the prison physi- 
cian." That is the way we get English law and order in Ireland. 
Most of the criminals are sent in from the outside. We have no 
trouble except where the British forces make it. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Is that due to the Irish character, or is 
that due to the fact that they are banded together in this common 
cause where they must protect one another, or is it historically true? 

A. It is historically true. There was at one time a great deal of 
drunkenness in the country, but the Volunteer movement killed that. 
The people are intensely serious now. The work of our courts is 
really very light. 


Q. Senator Walsh: Do these courts have to meet in secret? 
A. Now they do. 

Q. How long were they in the open? 

A. They were in the open until about, I think, the time of my 
brother's arrest. There was a court going on that night. They are 


open now to those who want to go into them. The Irish public 
knows where they are. 

Q. And others than the Irish can go into them? 

A. Yes, but not too openly, for then the police or the military 
would come in and break things up. 

Q. But they are going on now? 

A. Oh, yes. But the British authorities have put them down and 
declared them illegal. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: The British Government specifically declared 
them illegal. They were afraid they were getting too much power, 
because not only the Republicans used them, but they were used by 
the Unionists and by the people all over the country. 

The Witness: I have been asked to say something here about the 
burning of creameries and destruction in general; the circumstances 
under which the Coercion bill went into effect, as well as the exact 
circumstances of my brother's case; and the shooting of police. 

I would like to say as quickly as possible with regard to the shoot- 
ing of policemen. I am most anxious to speak to the Commission 
on that point. I have been told ever since I have come to this coun- 
try that there were three things that were a great stumbling block to 
American sympathy in the Irish situation. The first was that it was 
a religious fight. The second was that the Irish were murdering 
policemen. And the third was the difficulty of giving Britain guar- 
antees that we would not molest her or let our coast be used for pur- 
poses of military aggression. 


With regard to the religious difficulty, there isn't any, except what 
England creates. The religious difficulty of today is created exactly 
as she created the religious difficulty with the Earl of Charlemont in 
1797 and smashed the Irish Volunteers. She keeps alive the re- 
ligious issue in Belfast for her own purposes. But there is no trou- 
ble among the people otherwise. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: What is your history in Cork? Will you 
kindly state if there has ever been any trouble there and what per 
cent, of the people are Catholic? 

A. I suppose that the per cent, of the population that is non- 
Catholic would be about ten per cent. The Jews have their syna- 
gogue, the Nonconformists have their church. The Church of Ire- 
land, which has been disestablished and is the Episcopalian Church, 
have their churches. The Protestants of Cork all have their churches 
just like the Catholics, only they are not so numerous. 



There never has been any persecution of the Protestants in Cork. 
If we wanted to persecute Protestants, we could persecute them and 
make it too hot for them very effectively. But the very biggest busi- 
ness houses in the city are owned by Protestants. For a long time 
they employed only Protestants. That does not hold any longer 
now. They have become more broad-minded and less bigoted. But 
the only bigotry shown in Cork has been shown by Protestants. A 
business house needing help would put up a sign in the window, 
"No Irish Catholic need apply." Personally I would feel like doing 
something to such people, but the population of Cork did not. The 
Protestant population of Cork, if asked individually, could never 
prove a single case of aggression on the part of the Catholic popula- 
tion. If you went through the whole length and breadth of Ireland, 
you could not find a case where the Catholics were the aggressors. 
If they are attacked, they will answer back, the same as other people 
would. But Ireland has been remarkably free from religious perse- 
cutions. The Irish people seem to be unable to do otherwise. We 
are the only nation in the whole wide world that accepted Chris- 
tianity without murdering the first apostles. We are the only nation 
in the whole world that does not show in its history some early per- 
secutions for religious heresies. 

Q. Mr. Frank P. Walsh: Do you have a Jewish quarter in Cork, 
— a Ghetto? 

A. It is not called a Ghetto. It has the curious name of the 
Hibernian Buildings. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: You never have had an anti-Semitir 
movement in Ireland? 

A. We never have had a religious persecution movement of any 
kind whatever. 

Q. But they did that in England. 

A. Yes, but England has often endeavored to have persecu- 
tions in Ireland without any success whatever. Queen Mary in 
England started to persecute the Protestants in England. She issued 
the same writ for the Pale, the district she owned in Ireland. The 
writ was obeyed in England. It was not obeyed in the Irish Pale. 
The Catholic Irish citizens refused to persecute their own fellow 
citizens. And Protestant citizens by the hundreds left England and 
went to Ireland for safety. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: But there never has been any persecution, 
even of the Jews? 


A. No. 

Q. But there is a large Jewish quarter in Dublin, I think. 

A. Yes, the Jews have a habit of creeping in, you know. But 
they are quite harmless. As a matter of fact, the Jewish population 
and the Jewish synagogue in Cork sent us one of the nicest expres- 
sions of sympathy on the death of my brother that we had from 

We will not persecute anybody. There are very few people in 
Ireland, even the people who shout loudest, who believe in religious 
persecution. The Orange section in the north of Ireland are a very 
ignorant type of people. They are more like the lower class of 
England than they are like the Irish. But it is true that they have 
the idea very firmly fixed in their heads that the pope is going to 
come over to Ireland and persecute all the Protestants. Of course 
it is nonsense, but it is one of those ideas that are very difficult to 
get out of their heads. When the English army of occupation i> 
withdrawn that will disappear. As for not coming under the Irish 
Parliament, they will have to. We are not going to have anything 
like Englishmen in our country. We will give them any kind of 
guarantees they like, but we will give it to them and not to the 

So much for the religious difficulty. The fact that there will not 
be any religious persecution under the Irish Government can be 
proved only by experience. We know there will not be. 

Q. Senator Walsh: To what extent have Catholic constituencies 
elected Protestants to represent them in the British Parliament and 
on the county and city councils? 

A. Very many of them. 

Q. Have you had Protestant mayors of Cork? 

A. Yes, the third last was a Protestant. 

O. Have you other Protestant officials? 

A. Yes, the senior alderman is a Protestant. 

Q. Who is he? 

A. Alderman Beamish. 

Q. Is he a Unionist? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Is it true all over the Catholic part of Ireland that they have 
elected mayors repeatedly who have not been of the Catholic faith? 

A. It is true, true repeatedly, that a Protestant is elected if he is 
the best man. But they would not elect a Unionist at all, no matter 
what his religion was. Thomas Davis said in one of his poems: 
''There art two great parties in the end. You are one with us if 
you are Ireland's friend." If a man is for Ireland, we never ask 


him his religion. If he is a Catholic and we knew that he was 
against Ireland, out he would go. It is Ireland that matters. 


Q. Commissioner Maurer: To come back to the industries. 
The textile industries of Ireland, where do they exist? 

A. In the south of Ireland and Belfast and Balbriggan. The 
hosiery factory at Balbriggan that was destroyed lately was owned 
by an Englishman and a Unionist. But of course the injury to him 
was unintended. The factory was burned to destroy the industry 
of the town. 

Q. Did that give employment to many people? 

A. Yes, to several hundreds. It is the main industry of that 

Q. Are you acquainted in the north? 

A. Not very well. 

Q. Do you know whether these textile workers are organized 
into labor unions? 

A. They are, but they ignore their unions when the time comes 
to have a fight against the Catholics. 

Q. In the north of Ireland are they organized? 

A. There are trade unions in the north of Ireland, but they are 
spoiled by this bigotry. 

Q. Do you not think that perhaps these religious differences 
may be more economic than political ; that those who profit by 
keeping these employees divided, by keeping them unorganized, 
wherever there is an effort made to improve their standard of living, 
they simply start a religious war among them and make organiza- 
tion impossible? 

A. Yes, that is largely true. But the main interest in Ireland is 
not a capitalistic one. It is a political one. It is England versus 
Ireland all the time. 

Q. Yes, but now the burning down of that mill was not political. 
That was owned by a British capitalist. 

A. Yes, that was Mr. Smith. 

Q. Yes. That was simply to harass the people who worked 

A. Yes. It was not an attack on the individual owner. It was 
simply the English policy of starvation. They are trying to throw 
the people out of work and prevent them getting food and starve 
them into submission. 


Q. I have been informed that labor organizers in the north of 
Ireland are endeavoring to organize the Protestants. In previous 
years they have endeavored to organize both Catholics and Protes- 
tants. This time they said, we will organize the Protestants and we 
can get the Catholics later. Then when the employers heard of it 
they told the Protestant employees that it was a Catholic trick. So 
the regular organizers went over to organize the Catholics, and then 
the employers told the Catholics that it was a Protestant trick. Do 
vou not think that it was a game of playing the parties off against 
each other? 

A. Yes, but the fundamental difference is political. 

Q. Yes, but the religious differences are inspired more by the 
economic than by the political issues. 

A. Yes, that is quite possible. 


Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Now, I handed you a list of questions. 

A. Yes. I have discussed the first. That one, the religious diffi- 
culty, does not exist. I will take the next one, the guarantee for 
England's supremacy, I shall say, or England's safety. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: They call is safety. 

The Witness: They call it safety. Our President took lately the 
first paragraph of the new agreement made with Cuba by the United 
States. It is a guarantee that the ports of Cuba will not be given 
to any foreign power or used in any way that would injure the 
United States. I am not sure of the wording of it. But the point 
is this: that we are perfectly willing to give a promise that we will 
not let any other foreign power, or any power, use our ports as a 
war base. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Against Great Britain? 

A. Yes. We are perfectly willing to give that guarantee and to 
keep it, because when we get our Republic, we are not going to go 
to war with anybody. Neither will we allow our ports to be used 
by one big nation that wants to make war on another big nation. 
England says that is not enough. If it is not enough, she will have 
to do without. She is not going to keep us perpetually in slavery. 
England will have to be satisfied with what is right from us. She 
will have to be satisfied with justice to our interests as well as hers. 
We will be perfectly willing to be good friends and forget the past, 
provided she clears out and leaves us alone. If, as Lloyd George 
said some time ago, England will never agree to an Irish Republic 


until England is beaten to the ground, well, I am very sorry, because 
England will have to be beaten to the ground. And perhaps Ma- 
taulay's traveler, who stood on London bridge and looked on the 
ruins of St. Paul's, is already on the horizon. At any event, we are 
going to get our freedom. England cannot keep us in slavery. 
You cannot keep in slavery a people every individual of whom is 
willing to die for the principle of freedom. So much for the third 


The second thing I was asked is about what is called often the 
murdering of policemen. Here it is called the shooting of police- 
men. I will simply take the murders of policemen by denying that 
there ever has been a policeman murdered in Ireland. Now I will 
deal with the shooting of policemen. Will you please start out with 
the premise that Ireland and England are at war. One of the in- 
stances about the shooting of policemen was the ambush of seven- 
teen Black-and-Tans last week at a place not far from Mallow, when 
the whole seventeen of them were captured, sixteen of them killed, 
and the seventeenth very severely wounded. That was put down as 
a very horrible murder. Suppose that in the recent war an Ameri- 
can scouting party went out on a Belgian road and got information 
that three or four lorries of German soldiers carrying ammunition 
were coming along the road. If they felt strong enough, and if 
they were very plucky, — perhaps even if they did not feel strong 
enough, they would get into a nice little ambush and they would 
give the best account of that German party that they possibly could. 
I think you will agree with me that that is a statement of what 
would happen. Would you do anything but laugh at any man that 
would call that ambush party murder? Of course it is not a mur- 
der. It is an act of war. The Black-and-Tans were armed to the 
teeth. I should like to tell you how the Black-and-Tans go around 
the streets of our cities and country places. Four or five days ago 
there was an ambush at Bandon, and in that ambush our men got 
the worst of it. — four or five of our men were killed. You will not 
find any Irish citizen coming before this Commission and claiming 
that these men were murdered. Why? Because it was an act of 
war. It was the shooting of one set of soldiers by another set of 
soldiers. I think there is an incident in American history known as 
the Boston Massacre. I am not quite conversant with American his- 
tory. I know a fair share of it, but I feel diffident about talking 


American history in your presence. But I think that in that Boston 
Massacre two or three or perhaps more British officers were shot, 
and perhaps several civilians. I think that the shooting of those 
officers was described as murder, and the shooting of the civilians 
was described as the shooting of rascally rebels. Do you agree that 
the shooting of those officers was murder? You may do so if you 
wish. I do not. I do not agree that the shooting of any of the 
armed forces of the British Crown while they are armed is murder. 
It is not. I will tell you this: every single individual in the enemy's 
uniform who passes through the streets and roads of our country by 
that act commits an act which by the laws of international warfare 
renders him worthy of death. Any German soldier who went out in 
the streets of Belgium during the late war was shot if his enemy 
could shoot him. I think that a little clear thinking on these points 
would be advisable before we are accused of wholesale murder. 


I have also been told that individual policemen who were un- 
armed have been shot. That is also true. Now I will tell you who 
those individual policemen are. I was asked a little while ago about 
the police in Ireland. The police in any civilized country are a 
civil force under the control of the civil authorities, and that civil 
force deals with offences against the civil law only. The police in 
Ireland have always been under the authority of the British Govern- 
ment. They have not always carried arms, because there have been 
times when we were not in a state of war. But they carry arms at 
present, and therefore they are among the armed forces of the 
Crown. Among the Royal Irish Constabulary was a division known 
as the G Division. Their work was purely detective work. The 
people they were sent to spy upon were our fellow citizens. And 
that went on during every political agitation in Ireland. During the 
present war, since 1916 — since 1914, in fact — the police in that G 
Division were very active. I am sorry to have to acknowledge that 
they were Irishmen. That only makes them greater sinners. No 
one is held in greater horror and contempt than Judas, and every 
one of those men was a Judas because he betrayed his own. In that 
G Division were men who were expert spies, because they were 
people that mixed freely with the Irish people and picked up infor- 
mation from girls whom they met and other people, and they gave 
that information to the British Government, and that information 
led very often to the arrest and imprisonment of their fellow coun- 


trymen. Therefore they were spies. In the recent times in Ireland, 
when the times got very hot, these spies have done very good work 
for the English Government in Ireland. One of our leaders who was 
executed in 1916 was executed through one of those spies, who has 
himself been shot since. During Easter Week some of the Volun- 
teers were anxious to shoot down every policeman, every police spy, 
that is — every policeman of the G Division; but the leaders, Pearse 
and MacDermott, said, "No, this is a clean fight, and we will deal 
with them afterwards." There was one detective who was very 
active in tracking down our men. His life was saved by John Mac- 
Dermott, one of the signatories of the Irish Declaration of Inde- 
pendence. John MacDermott was a very young man, and he was 
very lame. As a soldier he would be considered as among the unfit 
in any army in the world. But he was one of the greatest workers 
we had. Because of his lameness the military officers who captured 
the people after Easter Week came to the conclusion that he could 
not be one of the leaders, and so he was thrown into the barracks 
along with the rank and file, and he was put in the batch to be sent 
to the Wakefield prison in England. They were paraded in the 
Richmond barrack yards before leaving Dublin, and this particular 
detective was sent up and down the ranks to see if there was any 
man there who ought to get penal servitude rather than deportation. 
And in going up and down the ranks he saw John MacDermott, and 
he pointed him out to the British authorities as one of the seven 
signatories of the Irish Declaration of Independence. And John 
MacDermott was taken out and shot a few days afterwards. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Was this the man whose life he had saved? 

A. This was the v.ery man whose life he saved. And that man 
has subsequently been shot, and shooting was too gentle a dealth 
for such a wretch. 

No unarmed policeman has been shot in Ireland unless he has 
been proved a spy. And he has been proved a spy on good evidence. 
Our Irish Secret Service, like other divisions of the Irish Govern- 
ment, is rather efficient. We have captured the official and private 
correspondence of Lord French, and we have sent back his personal 
correspondence marked "Censored by the I. R. A." His official cor- 
respondence he did not get back. The official correspondence we 
have captured from time to time has been conclusive evidence that 
there are spies at work among us. One morning a policeman com- 
ing along from the general postoffice with a mail bag was stopped 
on the street by two Volunteers and relieved of his mail bag. It is 
not always done as openly as that on the streets at eight o'clock in 
the morning. He was sent home without his mail bag. That mail 


bag contained conclusive evidence against a man who had been sus- 
pected as a spy for a long time. And he paid the penalty that all 
spies pay. 

You may hold up your hands in horror and say we are not justi- 
fied in shooting spies. They are people that I have a great deal of 
contempt for. but I have a great deal of contempt for many people 
I would not shoot. But I ask you this: what right have you or any 
other nation to object to our shooting spies unless you object to the 
shooting of spies for yourself and your allies? It has been sug- 
gested that these men should have an open trial. There were a good 
many spies shot in England at the beginning of the war. I believe 
that the question was asked in the House of Commons why they 
were not given an open trial. And the answer was that it would be 
giving aid and information to the enemy. If England is allowed to 
shoot her spies without an open trial, why should we not too? I 
do not know whether America had any spies to shoot during the 
recent war. 

Chairman Howe: Not in this war. 

The Witness: But in any war where you found spies to be shot, 
you shot them. Very well. But spies in Ireland have only been 
shot on official evidence, and the official evidence was very largely 
obtained from themselves, from Dublin Castle. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Have any Irish Republican officers who have 
been spies of the government been shot by the British? 

A. I do not really know whether we have any spies like that. 
When I say that we have a secret service force, I mean those who 
capture the mails and get information like that. 

Q. But you seek the same right for the officers of the Irish Re- 
publican Army to shoot British spies as the British exercise in shoot- 
ing Irish secret service men? 

A. Yes, I ask only this, that when England calls the shooting of 
the spies she captures murder, she can begin to call the shooting of 
the spies that she employs murder. You must begin to use the 
proper word. The shooting of spies is not murder. The only mur- 
ders we have had in Cork in many, many years — I am not a young 
woman any more — but in all my life I can only remember two mur- 
ders in Cork, and I do not think there would be more than four or 
five in Ireland. And the murder that I told you of, that man who 
kicked his barmaid to death, was sentenced by the British Govern- 
ment to the lightest sentence that he could possibly get, and let out 
after six weeks. 



Q. Commissioner Thomas: Miss MacSwiney, I want to ask a 
few questions to get this straight. You say that policemen are not 
shot indiscriminately, but that only when they are spies and have 
done work worthy of death? — that is, unarmed policemen? 

A. Yes. 

Q. You also say that some are ambushed and shot that way? 

A. Yes. 

Q. There is also a third case that happened when you were on 
the water, perhaps. Something like fourteen policemen were shot 
at different times and places, some on duty and some off; some of 
them in their homes. 

A. Fourteen of them? Those were in Fermoy, perhaps? 

Commissioner Thomas: No, in Dublin. 

The Witness : Oh, those men were spies. They were English secret 
service men who had the clews of the machinery of our government. 
I believe they were the head men there, who were doing untold dam- 
age. I do not know the details. But I know this: if any of those 
men were shot by the Irish Republican Army, they were shot justly 
and after warning. 

Q. Chairman Howe: What do you mean by warning? 

A. Oh, they have been told that they would be shot. 

Q. You mean that they were told they would be shot if they did 
not leave the country? 

A. Yes, they had to leave the country. 

Q. If they left the country they would not be shot? 

A. Yes, if they left the country they would be safe. We would 
have no further objection. They would not be shot. 


Q. Commissioner Thomas: You said that one object of the 
British Government was to drive the Irish people into open war- 
fare ? 

A. Yes. It is guerilla warfare now. 

Q. Do I understand you to say that England would then be 
justified in arresting the vice-president of the Irish Republic as an 
act of war? 

A. She has done it. 

Q. Yes, but you say that she is justified in doing it, though, as 
an act of war? 



but 1 


iv that 






in Ire 




1ml it 



ing l 


is not justified in doing any act of 

» the code of war. tin- ethics of war. 
if yon could use that word, that Arthur Griffith is in prison at this 

A. Yes. with one proviso that covers my brother's case at the 
same time. Why? Because when two countries are at war, and 
when the officers of one country are captured by another, they should 
be given the status of prisoners of war. If my brother had been 
given the status of a prisoner of war, he would never have gone on 
hunger strike. If Arthur Griffith is given the treatment of a prisoner 
of war. well and good. But what we object to and what we fight 
against and what my brother died to protest against is the assump- 
tion of England that she is entitled to arrest us and drag us off to 
prison or execute us because she owns our country. 

Q. I understand. But according to the code of war, military 
search and seizure is not the thing that it is under the code of peace. 
Now, military search and seizure, you would say, is not any special 
disability in Ireland at the present time? 

A. \es, granted the treatment of prisoners of war. 
Q. In other words, granting your point of view that England has 
no right to be in a state of war with you? 

A. We do not complain against search and seizure, against ar- 
rest, against anything except vindictive reprisals against the civilian 
population; providing only that the people so arrested are treated 
as prisoners of war and not as common criminals. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Accepting that you are in a state of war with 

A. Accepting that we are in a state of war. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: In other words, there is a distinction 
to be drawn against the burning of factories, as at Balbriggan, and 
the burning of creameries and the destruction of civilian homes, 
which is wrong, even under conditions of war, because it is the de- 
struction of civilian property. But search and seizure and impris- 
onment you do not object to? 

A. Right, exactly, if they give us the status of prisoners of war. 
But they are not doing that. But as long as England holds that she- 
is arresting us as criminals or as rebels, as she once said, and gives 
us the treatment of criminals rather than prisoners of war, she is 
not justified. 

Q. Senator Walsh: You claim that the shooting of these men 
who are spies would be justified the same as England is in shooting 


A. Certainly. 

Q. But it is quite a different thing for England to shoot at ran- 
dom at a crowd of civilians? 

A. Yes, certainly. Now here is the thing we have to contend 
with on the country roads. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Wait a minute. Is that taking up another 
sub j ect ? 

A. You want to stop now, Mr. Howe? 

Chairman Howe: It is now ten minutes to six, and perhaps we 
should stop now before you branch out into any new subject. 


Q. Senator Walsh: Have you finished with the shooting of 

A. No, there is one thing more. Policemen have been shot 
either accidentally or on purpose by other policemen. There is one 
case that happened lately, about which I can give you no absolute 
proof. It is the case of the shooting of an old sergeant, Sergeant 
O'Donovan or O'Donoghue. It happened about the time of my 
brother's death, between that time and the time I left home. I know 
that that was murder, and was not done by any of our people. He 
was an inoffensive old man and within a few months of his pension 
time. He had not committed a single act of aggression against our 
people. He was not acting as a spy. He was doing no harm to any- 
body, and not a single Irish Volunteer would have shot him. And 
this man was to have his pension and retire from the force in a very 
short time. He had not taken any part in the work of the Black- 
and-Tans. And he was found shot. The Black-and-Tans have shot 
several men like that who would not act as spies, in the hope of 
throwing further odium on Sinn Fein, as they call it. 


Also they have taken out and flogged and shot policemen who 
have resigned from the force, and they have done that in uniform. 

Q. Senator Walsh: That is, before the expiration of their term? 

A. Before the expiration of their term. They have shot them in 
uniform, and all these shootings have been put down as to the Irish 
Republican Government. We do not accept the responsibility, be- 
cause these are murders committed by these men for the purpose of 
throwing odium on Sinn Fein. 


Q. Commissioner Maurer: Are any of these Irish state police- 
men or Irish Constabulary resigning? If so, why do they resign? 

A. They are resigning because they will not take any part in 
what is going on now in Ireland. 

Q. After they resigned, did anything happen to them? 

A. Not by our own people. 

Q. But did any of them lose their lives? Have you any per- 
sonal knowledge of such cases? 

A. The information I have of such cases I got from the news- 

Q. But you have read in the newspapers that many of them have 
been shot after they have resigned? 

A. Yes, I have. After they had resigned. 

Q. But it seems to me that a Royal Irish Constabulary man who 
had resigned would have rather endeared himself to the people of 
the Irish Republic. 

A. Yes, they would. And furthermore, I can tell you that the 
Irish Government would see that they do not suffer from their resig- 

Q. But the Black-and-Tans and the military notice it? 

A. Yes, that is it. While my brother was in Brixton Prison, I 
read in the paper that about four hundred R. I. C.'s sent in a notice 
to the Government warning the Government that if he were released, 
they would resign in a body. The very instant that I saw that. I 
knew for one that it was a lie. There are not four hundred of the 
old R. I. C. men left, nor four dozen, who would say such a thing. 
The four hundred, if there were four hundred, I knew were the 
English recruits to the R. I. C, commonly known as Black-and- 
Tans. It sounded very big in the English papers that four hundred 
R. I. C.'s threatened to resign if the Lord Mayor of Cork was re- 
leased, because their lives would not be safe if he lived. That, of 
course, was another piece of lying propaganda. I said that on the 
instant I saw it, because I did not believe they would do it. The 
very next day the chief of the R. I. C. sent a letter to the paper 
denying that the R. I. C. had taken any such action, and very vigor- 
ously protesting that such a statement should be made. There are 
not four hundred or four dozen of the old R. I. C. who are left, but 
there are any number of Black-and-Tans who might say that they 
protested against his release. 1 

1 This fictitious protest against Lord Mayor MacSwiney's release con- 
tained the imputation that he was one of the chief instigators of the 
shooting of policemen, and hence the lives of policemen would not be 
safe if he were released. 


Q. Commissioner Wood: You say that the taking of the lives 
of these policemen, of the R. I. C. and the Blaek-and-Tans, was done 
in punishment for indiscriminate murders. But has the murder of 
resigned officers caused reprisals? 

The Witness: Would you mind repeating the question? 

Q. You said that some policemen when they resigned from the 
R. I. C. had been shot by the Black-and-Tans. Do you claim that 
any such killings have been given as an excuse for the shooting up 
of communities by the Black-and-Tans? 

A. By the Black-and-Tans? 

Q. Yes. 

A. I could not say about that. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: Might I say that I told the Chairman some time 
ago that an effort would be made to locate a number of members 
of the R. I. C. that have resigned and would be available as wit- 
nesses. We will give their names to the secretary this evening. 
And they can give the whole story of the R. I. C. 1 

Chairman Howe: We will now adjourn. The meeting will be 
held here in this room at nine-thirty tomorrow morning. 

Adjournment 5:53 P. M. 

1 See testimony of Ex-Policemen Crowley, Tangney, Caddan, and 


Before the 

Session Two 

Jane Addams 
James H. Maurer 
Oliver P. Newman 
George W. Norris 
Norman Thomas 
David I. Walsh 


Frederic C. Howe 

Acting Chairman 


Before the Commission, sitting in Odd Fellows' Hall, Washington, 
D. C, Thursday, December 9, 1920. 

Session called to order by Chairman Howe at 9:50 A. M. 
Chairman Howe: Mrs. MacSwiney will take the stand. 











Mr. F. P. Walsh (of counsel) : Will you please state youi 

Mrs. MacSwiney ? 

Muriel MacSwiney. 

And where do you reside? 

In Cork. 

\on are the widow of Terence MacSwiney? 

Yes, I am. 

And he died on what day? 

■I am not sure of the exact date. 

I am not sure, 
And where? 

In Brixton prison, in London. 

And at the time of your husband's arrest, what was your hus- 
band's business or profession? 

A. He was the Lord Mayor of the city of Cork. 



Q. And did he have any other official connection? 

A. Yes, he was an officer in the Irish Republican Army. 

Q. Now, would you be good enough to begin, I might suggest, 
to tell the Commission in your own thoughts about his connection 
with the Republican movement in Ireland? And just state to the 
Commission your observations of the movement down to your mar- 
riage with your husband and down to the time of his death. I will 
let you start with your own story. You were born where? 

A. I was born in Cork. 

And what was the name of your parents? 

My father's name was Nicholas Murphy. 

Of Cork? 

Yes, of Cork. And Mary Purcell was my mother's name. 

And your father is dead? 

Yes, he died when I was sixteen. 

And you have brothers and sisters? 

Yes, I have. 

How many? 

Three sisters and two brothers. 

What was the date of your marriage with Mr. MacSwiney? 

June 9, 1917. 


Q. You can go ahead now and state your own position in this 
matter. When, if at any time, did you become interested in the 
cause of Irish independence, and what actuated you? 

A. Well, I think what actuated me was that all my life, even 
when I was quite a baby, I never could understand why there should 
be poor people and rich people. You know there is a great deal of 
poverty in Ireland, especially in Cork. You cannot help noticing 
the many poor children with no shoes and stockings and the like. 
I noticed that when a baby. I could not understand why it should 
be. However, I do not think it is right to give people things only in 
charity. There should be no need of that. There's plenty in Ire- 
land for everybody to have enough. As I grew older I saw that 
things could not be set right except by government. 

Q. Was this prior to your marriage? 

A. yes, that was when I was quite a child. And I saw that 
while England was there we could do nothing, because she destroyed 
our business and kept us poor. 

Q. What was the business of your father? 

A. He had a big distillery. 


Q. Briefly stated, he was a man in comfortable circumstances? 

A. yes. very. 

Q. You say as a child you were moved by the poverty that ex- 
isted in your country, and the reasons for it, and why it should 
be so? 

A. Yes. I was. 

Q. Now. you may proceed, then. 

A. As I got older, as I have told you, I saw that England was 
responsible for all that, and if we had our own government we 
could do something; and until we had our own government we could 
do nothing. I saw that, and I picked up other things, and I learned 
that England was only there as a thief, and had no right to be there 
at all. 

Q. Where were you educated, Mrs. MacSwiney? 

A. I was educated at home until I was fifteen, and then I was 
sent to England for two years. 

Q. To what school? 

A. To Saint Leonard's Convent of the Holy Child at Hastings. 
They have a great many convents in America, by the way; and 
many in England. 

Q. And where was your education finished? 

A. There, at Hastings, in the south of England. 

Q. Did you have any personal interest in the Irish Republican 
movement after your graduation? 

A. Yes, I did. You see, my parents are not quite like myself. 
I think I am rather characteristic of a certain section in Ireland. 
The younger people of Ireland have been thinking in a way that 
some of the older ones have not. There some years ago the Union- 
ists did not wish an Irish Republic. They wished to belong to Eng- 
land. They were well off and quite comfortable and thought only 
of themselves. That is dying out now. The younger members of 
such families are Republican. On account of that, I did not get the 
opportunity to meet Republicans when I was a child. That was 
why I was sent to school to England. I am only characteristic of a 
great many who are brought up shut up at home. And still the 
Irish spirit comes out of them in spite of everything. So until I 
was about twenty-two I did not get the opportunity to do very much. 

Q. What is your age now? 

A. I am twenty-eight. 

Q. When did you first meet Terence MacSwiney? 

A. I met him in 1915, about Christmas. 

Q. Were you interested in the Republican movement before 


A. yes, I was, some time before then. 

Q. You might state what your activities have been prior to that 

A. My thought has long been that we should have an Irish Re- 
public, and that England should go from Ireland. 

Q. Did you belong to any organization up to that time? 

A. I did not, up to that time. I had spoken to people, of course. 

Q. But you had not been connected with any Republican organ- 

A. No, on account of my family. I was living at home, of 


Q. I wish you would proceed and tell about your husband, and 
your marriage, and tell the whole story down to the present time. 
I am sure it would interest the Commission to hear your story from 
the very first. 

A. Well, I met my husband at the house of mutual friends, about 
Christmas, 1915. And, well, I did not really get to know him very 
intimately at that time. Some time after that I met him a few 

Q. You might tell what his status was at that time. 

A. He was a commandant of the Irish Republican Army at that 
time. , 

Q. He was a commandant? 

A. Yes, in the south of Ireland. Of course, my husband has 
been in all the movements ever since he was a boy; because of 
course, as his sister has told you, theirs is a very old family around 
Cork. She can tell you about that better than I can, because she 
knew him before I did. I met him, as I said, about Christmas. 
And he was arrested about a month after Christmas. 

Q. Upon what charge, if any? 

A. The charge of making a speech. But he was kept without 
trial for a whole month. He was never tried at all. He had to be 
released in the end. 

Q. Where was he confined? 

A. In Cork prison. And he was quite ill then. 

Q. What was the date? 

A. My sister-in-law can tell you the date. 

Q. In 1916? 

A. Yes, 1916. 


Q. \^ as it alter the insurrection or before? 

A. before. Well, when we got the news in Cork of the insur- 
rection in 1916, we heard there was something up in Dublin. And 
1 went into town to try to find out what had happened. I heard that 
my husband was up at the Volunteer Hall, the headquarters of the 
Republican army in Cork. There was danger in Cork then. He 
had been sleeping there because they thought it was safer for him. 
It was not well for him to be alone. He might be shot or arrested. 
He was up at the hall all the week. I had a chance to see him and 
get the news of what was happening in Dublin and in Cork. My 
husband was arrested after that. 

Q. What date was that? 

A. I cannot give the date exactlv. It was after Easter Week. 

Q. What was the date of your marriage? 

A. The ninth of June. 1917. 

Q. And I believe you have one child? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And the name of your child? 

A. Maura. 

Q. And when was Maura born? 

A. She was born on the twenty-third of June, 1918. 

Q. Had your husband been arrested before you were married? 

A. Yes. I told you he had. Easter Week, 1916. 

Q. And he was arrested after that, — after your marriage? 

A. yes, like all men in Ireland, whether they had fought or 
not. They were all arrested, after Easter Week. 

Q. And when was he first arrested? 

A. Early in 1916. and then after Easter. 

Q. And how long was he confined? 

A. He was confined until after Christma>. 

Q. And where was he sent? 

A. First of all. he was sent to Dublin to Richmond barracks, 
and he was then deported to Wakefield prison in England. 

Q. And he got out under the general amnesty? 

A. Yes, with the other prisoners at Christmas. 

Q. During all that time there was no formal charge lodged 
against him? 

A. no, none of those were charged. 

Q. They just kept him in jail until Christmas time? 

A. They did, for nearly a year. 

Q. From that time what was the course of your husband? 



A. I visited him in Richmond barracks, I should say. And then 
I was sent over by our own people to England to do something for 
the men who were in the prisons there. Our men were in a terrible 
condition at that time. In the beginning none of their folks were 
allowed to see them. When I went over first, I went to Wandsworth 
prison in London, and then I went to Wakefield, where my husband 
was, because I was supposed' to look after the Cork men, and my 
husband and they were in Wakefield. 

Q. How many were confined? 

A. hundreds, if not thousands. The whole of Ireland was in 
jail at that time, and people who had never handled arms also. 
When I went there our men were in a terrible condition. They were 
literally starving. I know one friend of mine, — he had never han- 
dled arms. He was from Bandon in County Cork. I was god- 
mother to one of his children. He was sent to Wakefield before my 
husband was. He was not allowed anything, not a book, not even a 
prayerbook. All of his wife's letters were stopped, and he thought 
that something had happened to her, because she was not very 
strong at that time. His wife was one of the first to get into the 
jails to see their people. Well, I went over just to help those men. 
It was June when I went over. They were in a frightful state. They 
had literally no food except what we brought them. Of course there 
were many Dublin men there, too, but I was looking after the Cork 

Q. After they were released in 1916, tell what happened. 

A. I was ill after they were released in 1916. 

Q. Were you in Cork? 


A. Yes, I was in Cork, and I was in Dublin for a month, and 
then I went over to England for a visit. And while I was there I 
got the news that my husband had been arrested again. He had 
been out a very short time, about a month, I think. 

Q. What was the date of that? 

A. In February, 1917. 

Q. On what charge? 

A. There was no charge whatever. He was deported to England 
with several others from different parts of the country. I heard 


just that they were arrested and deported to England. I did not 
know where they were, of course. At that time we were not en- 
gaged, but only friends; but I think I felt how things were, and 
that he felt the same as myself. I was in London then, and went to 
Cambridge to stay there with an Irish friend. She was at the univer- 
sity there then. At that time no communication was allowed with 
our men in jail whatever. I found out from Mr. Laurence Ginnell, 
the Irish M. P., and he told me that he had seen some of the men 
and he thought that my husband was in Shrewsbury. I met a police- 
man at the station and asked him where the men were, and he said 
that the military had charge of them, and told me to ask a soldier. 
I asked a soldier and he said they had gone, and that nobody would 
ever know where they had gone. 


I felt very badly. I did not know what to do. And that night I 
heard from him. They had been sent up to Bromyard in Hereford- 
shire. And I went up to see him. And we really became engaged 
that night. 

Q. He was in jail then? 

A. Yes, he was the same as in jail. He was confined to a certain 
area, and could not go out of it. 

Q. He was interned? 

A. He was interned, yes. 

Q. What date was that? 

A. That would be, — we were engaged on the third of March. 

Q. And how long was he interned after that time? 

A. He was there until after we were married. 

Q. And when were you married? 

A. About a fortnight in June. 

Q. And how long did you remain in England? 

A. We had to remain in England for a time after that. But 
although we were in England, we were married by an Irish priest, 
Father Augustine. You have had him over here. And we were 
married in our own language, the Irish language. 

Q. And that was on what date? 

A. The ninth of June, 1917. 

Q. And you went back to Ireland when? 


A. About a fortnight after that. The men were released, those 
who were interned, and we all went back to Ireland at that time. 


I went back to Ireland with him, and then we went off in the country 
together. And that time was about the only one that we had to- 

Q. How long did you remain there? 

A. For some time. 

Q. Where were you? 

A. At Ballingeary, in County Cork, a very, very beautiful place 
out in the country where they still do things in the old Irish way. 
They do not know English there yet, I am glad to say, and they are 
very much better off for it. 

Q. Where did you go from Ballingeary? 

A. We returned to Cork. 

Q. How long, then, did you remain at Cork? 

A. About three months. And then my husband had to go up to 
Dublin to look after his affairs, but he did not stay there. 

Q. He came back to Cork then? 

A. Yes, he came back to Cork and tried to settle down, and it 
was while we were there, in the house that we had just got. that he 
was arrested. 

Q. He was arrested? 

A. Yes, he was arrested in November at two-thirty o'clock in the 
morning by seven policemen. 

Q. Were you there then? 

A. Yes, I was. 

Q. How was he arrested? 

A. They came to the house for him and took him, and although 
it was but so very early in the morning, they were afraid to take him 
through the streets of the city where someone might see them. And 
although my husband had lived in Cork all his life and knew the 
city well, they went in such a round-about way that he said he did 
not know some of the streets through which they took him. 

Q. What was the charge on which they arrested him? 

A. Wearing a uniform of the Irish Republican Army. 


Q. Your husband was taken to prison and went on a hunger 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long did your husband go without food? 

A. He went without food for three days. 

Q. That was at what time? 

A. That was just before Christmas. 


Q. 1917? 

A. Yes. I'M 7. He was at home for Christmas. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was that the hunger strike that the Irish 
prisoners all demanded that a hearing he given them and eharges 
produced or that they he freed? 

A. No. sir. 

Q. F. P. Walsh: That was not the Mountjoy hunger strike? 

A. no. This was in Cork. 

Q. There was a large hunger strike later in Mountjoy? 

A. yes. there was. 

Q. About how many went on this strike? 

A. About twenty, I think. 

Q. And they all went without food for several days? 

A. Yes, they did. After six weeks'" imprisonment they went on 
hunger strike to protest against not being treated as prisoners of 

Q. And they were released by the Christmas amnesty? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And how long after this was he again arrested? 


A. I want to say that this was the only Christmas I ever had my 
husband for. It was the only Christmas that we were together. He 
was arrested again in the beginning of March. 

Q. 1917? 

A. 1918. I went up to Dublin to rest, and he went up with me 
to keep me company. We arrived in Dublin about two, and three 
of these G Division men came and arrested him about six. I never 
speak to these people at all, because I think it is better not to. But 
this time I had to. I asked them where they were taking my hus- 
band, and they would not tell me. They twisted and twisted, and 
said, "0 it's uncertain." I knew very well that they knew, because 
they were men high up. I kept after them, and two of the men said 
they would come back the next morning and tell me where my hus- 
band was taken to. 

Q. Where was he taken? 

A. He was taken to the Bridewell in Dublin. It was a terrible 

Q. Where is the Bridewell located? 

A. There are several Bridewells in Dublin. This Bridewell was 
near the Four Courts in Dublin. 


Q. Describe this place. 

A. The men were not treated like human beings there. They 
had no mattresses, no bedclothing, no anything. And what struck 
me as most terrible was that they had sort of round holes in the 
doors, and the prisoners could just stick their heads through. And 
some of them were mere boys there in that frightful place. 

Q. How long was your husband there? 

A. He was taken away the next morning to Belfast. And those 
men came back the next morning and would give me no information 
whatever. And there I was, not knowing where to look nor what to 
do. And then I learned he was at Belfast. He was in jail there for 
about three weeks, and then he was removed to Dundalk. 

Q. How long was he in Dundalk? 

A. He was there until the beginning of September. 

Q. From what date? 

A. From about the middle of March. 


Q. What time was Maura born? 

A. Well, he was up in Dundalk. Of course, T was in Belfast 
first, and then I was in Dundalk until I had to go home, — until the 
baby was about to be born. My husband wished that she should be 
born in Cork, his native city. He said that she might have to work 
for Ireland, and he wanted her to be born there. I went home the 
end of May, and she was born the twenty-first of June. 

Q. When did your husband first see her? 

A. He was in Dundalk when she was born, but he was moved to 
Belfast soon afterwards, and we had to take her up there to see her 
father, because, although his sentence would be completed soon, they 
had at that time taken to arresting people on the door of the jail 
just as they were walking out on finishing their sentence, and then 
deporting them to England without any charge at all. 

Q. What was your husband's sentence on the original charge 
against him? 

A. That was the sentence against him just after we were married. 
He got six months for wearing a uniform of the Irish Republican 

Q. Did your husband have any official position in it then? 

A. Yes, he was a commandant in the Irish Army at that time. 

Q. You say you went up to be there at the time of his release? 

A. Yes, I went up there, for we knew that probably he would 
be deported to England like the others, and that was the reason that 


I took the baby up; because if he was deported to England I might 
not be allowed to see him at all, and he might never see his little 
daughter. I was staying a good distance from the prison, because I 
thought it would be better to be where I was when I stayed in Bel- 
fast before, because the lady there liked children. 

Q. How old was the baby? 

A. She was six weeks old. We left Cork at three, and we did 
not get to Belfast until half past ten at night. My sister-in-law went 
with me, — not this one, but the other sister-in-law. Of course a 
long trip like that was not very good for the baby, as your wife can 
tell you. 

Q. How long did you stay there? 

A. About a fortnight. She used to be taken into the prison 
every day. I don't suppose anyone so young had ever been taken 
into that prison before. She was so young. Her father, of course, 
was delighted to see her. If he had been allowed to act according 
to his interests and desires, he would have stayed at home with the 
baby and me. He liked his home. That is, he would have liked to 
do that if Ireland had been free. 

Q. When did he return home? 


A. 0, you see he was arrested just as he was walking out of the 
jail, as we expected. 

Q. Were you there? 

A. He did not wish me to be present, because the police might 
pull me back and hurt me, as they often do in Ireland. 

Q. Where did you go? 

A. I went back to Cork, and I was there when he was deported. 

Q. What was that date? 

A. About the beginning of September. About the fourth of 
September, I think. 

Q. Where was he taken? 

A. He was taken to Lincoln. President de Valera was there at 
that time. He was sent there earlier than my husband. 

Q. Did you visit him there? 

A. I was not allowed to see him. I had practically no com- 
munication with him at that time because the letters I sent him had 
to go through the prison authorities and through the English au- 
thorities at London also. 

Q. How long did that endure? 

A. From September to the beginning of March. 


Q. When did you again see your husband? 

A. In March. 

Q. He returned to Cork? 

A. Yes, to Cork. He was released before the others a little bit 
on parole, because I had the influenza. He got a week on parole, 
and by the time that was up he was released. He expected that thev 
intended to release him or they would not have let him be with me 
then. Because, you see, when the baby was born he was in Ireland. 

Q. Did he attempt to be paroled at the time of the birth of the 

A. He would have liked to, of course. 

Q. Was any effort made that you know of? 

A. Not that I know of. Of course I was ill at the time. 

Q. What was the date of his release from prison that you 
spoke of? 

A. In March, 1919. 

Q. Who was Lord Mayor of Cork at that time? Was it before 
the election of Mr. MacCurtain? 

A. Oh, yes. It was Mr. Butterfield who was Lord Mayor then. 

Q. Was he arrested from that time down to the time he was 
elected Lord Mayor of Cork? 

A. No, he was not. 


Q. I wish you would detail what took place from that time to 
the time he was elected Lord Mayor of Cork. The elections inter- 
vened ? 

A. Yes, they did, while my husband was still in Lincoln Prison. 

Q. Was he elected? 

A. Yes, he was. 

Q. He was a candidate from where? 

A. He was a candidate from Mid Cork. 

Q. Is that a part of the county of Cork? 

A. Oh, yes. That was the place where my husband's family 
was from. That was the place where we spent our honeymoon — 
because what time we spent in England when we were married we 
did not count as a honeymoon. It was when we got back to Ballin- 
geary, when he came back that time when he was released. The 
little girl was about nine months old. We were afraid she would 
begin to speak then, and her father wanted her to learn Irish. I 
did not know very much Irish at that time. My husband knew it 


very, very well, hut I did not know much. I had not made much 
headway with it. So I went down to that place I spoke of, which 
is the Irish-speaking district. 

Q. For how long? 

A. For seven months. 1 think it was. 

Of course, in the country almost everyhody knows Irish. Every- 
hody knew Irish hefore the English came into the country, but in 
the towns the Irish language had died out a hit, and only the old 
folks knew it. We had this ring (indicating small gold circle on 
dress). You can get this ring when you sign a paper and say that 
you will not speak any English to anybody else who has this ring. 
And after I was back in Ballingeary awhile I got this ring. And 
after I got it, I never spoke a word of English to my husband or 
to the baby. 

Q. The baby is how old? 

A. About two and one-half years, sir. 

Q. And she speaks Irish? 

A. Yes, Irish. In this district where I was, there are a lot of 
tourists, and they speak English, of course. But for the last three 
months I was there I never spoke a word of English to anybody. 
Of course, my husband was there then, and he never spoke a word 
of English either. We gave one of these rings to the baby when 
she was born, so that she would always speak her own language. 
We had to take it away from her because she put it in her mouth, 
but I think it is time to give it to her again. 

Q. When did you return to Cork? 

A. November, 1919. I should like to say that while we were 
in Ballingeary the English soldiers and police twice raided the 
house we were living in at 4 o'clock in the morning. Luckily my 
husband was not there either time. He used to go back and forth 
from Cork. 

Q. Did you vote at the election? 

A. No, I did not. 

Q. They held a general election, however, at which all the men 
and women of Cork were entitled to vote? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And they did vote? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. Where were you at the time? 

A. I was in Cork, but I was ill. 

Q. What is the age of the franchise for women? 

A. I do not know. My sister-in-law can tell you that better 
than I can. » 


Q. It is thirty, I understand. 

A. Yes, I think so. 

Q. You are still an infant, so far as the franchise is concerned? 

A. Yes. 

Q. In this general election there was a full and free vote for 
members of the Council? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Do you recall the number of candidates voted on at that 

A. About thirty, I think. 

Miss Mary MacSwiney: There were more than that, about 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: Miss MacSwiney says sixty-six. 

The Witness: Yes, I don't know much about it. 

Q. Following that election who was elected mayor of Cork? 

A. Mayor MacCurtain. 

Q. And he was a friend of your husband? 

A. Yes, indeed; a lifelong friend. Mrs. MacCurtain used to 
tell me that if my husband was a girl she would be jealous of him, 
because they were together for so long a time, and planned and 
worked for Ireland together. 

Q. Were you in Cork at the time of the death of Lord Mayor 

A. Yes. 

Q. Were you there at the inquest? 

A. I was in Cork, but' I was very ill at the time. 

Q. So you had better leave that to your sister-in-law? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Just describe the events leading up to the death of your 
husband. After the death of Lord Mayor MacCurtain, your hus- 
band was elected Lord Mayor of Cork? 

A. Yes, he was. 

Q. And you were not present when he was invested with office? 

A. No. 

Q. How long was he Lord Mayor of Cork before his arrest? 

A. About six months. 


Q. And were you in Cork all that time? 

A. We came back to Cork before the election, and we got 
another house. We gave up the other house. But my husband 
could not stay there nights. 


Q. Why? 

A. Because he would be arrested. The English police and sol- 
diers would arrest him. For years he has had to do that. He really 
could not be with me at all. He could not be where they might find 
him nights. I stayed with friends, cousins of my husband. The 
house was a little bit out of the way, a side house, and he could 
come there occasionally, but always at a very great risk for fear 
of being arrested. The baby was nearly two years old then, but 
she did not see much of her father. And she was awfully fond 
of him. He had a telephone in his office when he was made Lord 
Mayor, in his office at the City Hall. And I used to speak to him 
on the telephone. Sometimes I was speaking to other people, but 
whoever I was speaking to on the telephone, the baby would shout 
and snatch the receiver out of my hand and think it was her father, 
and she would whisper, just whisper to him. She loved him and 
he loved her. and wanted to be with her more than anything else. 


Q. Your husband was a literary man, I believe? 

A. Yes, he was. He wrote a lot. He wrote some very excellent 
poems and plays. 

Q. You might describe him, his inclinations, age, appearance, 
and so forth. 

A. I think the chief characteristic of my husband — apart from 
his love of Ireland, which was above everything else — was his love 
of people, his charity. He never said a word against anybody. I 
never heard him say a word against his worst enemies. I will go 
into that a little later on when describing him at Brixton. I remem- 
ber that when he was in Wakefield, a few of them were put into 
solitary confinement, and they thought that surely they would be 
shot, because some others had been shot who were in solitary con- 
finement. And even then, when he expected death, he would not 
say anything harsh against the English. 

Q. How tall was he? 

A. Fairly tall. 

Q. Dark complexion? 

A. Yes, very dark, with black hair — a lot of it, with one big 
lock that was always getting over his face. We used to tease him 
about that lock of hair. He was very good looking, I think. 

Q. Of course you were familiar with what he wrote? 

A. Oh, yes, I was. 


Q. What was it, in a general way? Did he write verse? 

A. Oh, yes; he was more of a poet than anything else, I think. 

Q. And did that go back to his young manhood? 

A. Oh, yes. When he was about thirteen or fourteen he wrote 
some beautiful things, some of his most beautiful things. My hus- 
band wrote plays, too. 

Q. What was his education? 

A. He was educated at the North Monastery in Cork, the Chris- 
tian Brothers in Cork. But of course he educated himself, like most 
Irish people do. Of course you will hear about that from my 
sister-in-law. My husband's father died when he was fifteen, and 
he had to be taken away from school and go into business. And 
so he studied at nights, although he was working hard from eight- 
thirty in the morning until six. 

Q. What was his business? 

A. He was an accountant in Cork. At first he used to stay up 
most of the night and study, but he found that was very bad for 
him and he got headaches and the like. And then he used to come 
home and have tea and go to bed, and then get up about two in the 
morning and study. And when I heard that, I thought that a man 
like that could do anything. At first he would have a fire, but he 
found that that would make him sleepy, so that even in cold 
weather, in the winter, he would be without a fire. And he studied 
like that until he got his degree. 

Q. What degree did he get? 

A. The degree from the Royal University of Ireland. 

Q. Just describe his election as Lord Mayor of Cork. 

A. I think my sister-in-law could tell you that better, because 
I was not well at the time. 

Q. But just a general idea — what he told you about it. He 
expected to be elected Lord Mayor? 

A. Of course he thought he would be. He knew it was a very 
dangerous post, after what had happened to his predecessor. Mayor 
MacCurtain was his greatest friend, I might say, and it was his 
duty to fill his place. 

Q. Did you have any conversation with him about it? 

A. Not very much, because I was ill at the time. 


Q. Briefly, for the record, tell what did happen to his prede- 

A. He was at home one night in his own house. 
Q. What was his name? 


A. Thomas MacCurtain. He was a very quiet sort of man, and 
just like my husband, he would have liked to be at home with his 
wife and children all the time. He had five children, very sweet 
little children. One was only a year old. He was at home one 
night, sleeping with his wife and children, and his sisters-in-law 
were also there. And there was a knock at the door and his wife 
went to the door — the men do not answer the door at night in Ire- 
land, for they might be shot. The men broke into the house and 
pinioned her arms, and went upstairs and shot the Lord Mayor. 

Q. In the presence of his wife? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Chairman Howe: At what hour? 

A. In the middle of the night. At a time when there would 
be nobody about. 

Q. Who did that? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: Was it developed afterwards in the coroner's 
inquest who did the shooting of the Lord Mayor? 

A. Yes, it was. The police. 

Q. The British police? 

A. Yes, of course, the British police in Ireland, but at the orders 
of their government. 

Q. The coroner's jury found that Mayor MacCurtain was killed 
by the Irish police under orders from the British government? 

A. Yes, the Irish police, being the English forces. I know you 
all understand that. 

Q. How long after the killing of Lord Mayor MacCurtain was 
your husband elected? 

A. Almost immediately afterwards, when the funeral and all 
that was over. 


Q. And during the time that he was Lord Mayor of Cork did 
he live at home? 

A. He could not. 

Q. He was still pursued and had to live in the homes of other 

A. Yes. It was very much worse after he was Lord Mayor of 
Cork than it was ever before. 

Q. Did the corporation meet from time to time? 

A. Oh, yes, sir. 

Q. And did he preside at the meetings? 


A. Certainly. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Did they meet in the town hall? 

A. Yes, in the city hall.' It was not secret. Anybody could 
go in. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: It might be interesting to know why they 
did not arrest the Lord Mayor when they were meeting? 

A. I do not know. Perhaps they were afraid of public opinion. 

Q. As a matter of fact, the police do not work in the daytime? 
They expect to surprise these men in their homes and in their beds? 

A. Oh, yes. I think that they are afraid of doing it in a public 

Q. Senator Norris: He thought he would be arrested or mur- 
dered if he stayed in his own home? 

A. Oh, yes. He never even went about alone. He could not. 
Someone went with him, not so much to guard him as to identify 
anyone who might attack him. A Volunteer went with him or I 
often went with him. 

Q. Chairman Howe: And that was the reason they did not do 
it in public. 

A. Yes. Of course they did not want to be identified. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: And furthermore it would create a hostile 
popular demonstration to shoot him in public. 

A. Oh, yes; certainly it would. They would not shoot him 
where they might be identified. I could identify an assailant as 
well as anybody else, so I was often with him. 


Q. Just give us your own general description of his life after 

A. As I told you before, since the Christmas before, after I came 
back from the country, I lived with distant relations and friends, 
because, as I told you, we could not stay in a house of our own 
because he could never be there at all, and I could not very well 
be there on account of the raids and that sort of thing going on. 
And so I saw my husband sometimes, because I was in the house 
of friends, but indeed very, very seldom, and always at a very great 
risk. Sometimes he would come up after dark, because it was a 
little out-of-the-way place, a little outside of the city. That was 
better. And then he would come after dark and go away the first 
thing in the morning. The only meal I could have him for was 
breakfast, and that on rare occasions. I hardly ever saw my hus- 
band at all, to tell the truth. 


Q. And that continued for six months after he was elected Lord 

A. Oh, yes. of course; ever since we were married. But it was 
very, very much worse after he was elected Lord Mayor. 

Q. Is there anything else that you would like to tell the Com- 
mission after he was elected Lord Mayor? 

A. I do not think so. 


Q. When was your husband arrested the last time? 

A. He was arrested on the twelfth of August. 

Q. Where were you at that time? 

A. I was in Cork on the twelfth of August, and at two o'clock 
on that day I and my little girl went down to the seaside. 

Q. That was the twelfth of August, 1920? 

A. Yes. I took the baby down to the seaside. There was no 
one along there besides ourselves. It was to another Irish-speaking 

Q. About how far from Cork? 

A. It was to Youghal. You took the train to the station, and 
then it was a short distance — on a bicycle about five minutes — up 
to the town. It is an out-of-the-way place not very far from Cork. 
I did not know about my husband's arrest until the next morning, 
when a friend came over with the paper and told me that he was 
arrested the night before, about seven o'clock. 

Q. What did you do then? 

A. What could I do? There was nobody to mind the baby 
except myself. I had nobody to take her except strangers, and she 
would not go to them. My sister-in-law here came down to take 
care of the baby. She came down the next day, on Saturday. They 
had tried to see my husband — both of my sisters-in-law tried to see 
him. He had been arrested and taken to the military barracks, and 
they were not allowed to see him. They could not see him until 
Saturday morning. He was then on hunger strike. 

Q. When did you go to Cork? 

A. I did not go to Cork until Monday. I went up to my sister- 
in-law's house. This sister-in-law (indicating Miss Mary Mac- 
Swiney) was down at the seashore taking care of the baby. That, 
was the day of the trial. 



Q. Did you see him before the trial? 

A. My sister-in-law and myself went up to the barracks. That 
was where he was to be tried. A big military lorry came up, a 
very large one. I never saw so many soldiers in a military lorry 
in my life before. My husband was sitting in the center of them 
on a chair. That was Monday morning. He had been on a hunger 
strike since the morning of his arrest on Thursday. 

Q. Had you been advised of that? 

A. Yes. I need not tell you that he was very weak. It seemed 
such a cruel thing to have so many armed men guarding a weak 
and absolutely unarmed man. 

Q. Was he all alone in the lorry? 

A. Yes, there were no other prisoners. He was in very great 
pain. He looked it. I think that was one of the worst times for 
me. From the morning that I heard my husband was on a hunger 
strike, I believed that he would die. I felt terrible on that day 
when I saw him, because I knew he was in pain, and it was an 
awful thing that I could not give him anything to eat, for of course 
it was part of my duty that I should look after all his wants. 


First of all, they took him up very high stairs to a place where 
they were going to try him; and then they changed and took him 
down again. I saw by his face that he was suffering, and I said to 
one of the soldiers, could they not give him a chair, because he had 
been without food for so long. That is one of the worst times in 
a hunger strike — the first few days — because it is so painful. I 
was speaking to him in Irish and they did not interfere. He told 
me that he felt himself that he would be sentenced, and that he 
would be deported to England, and that the others arrested with 
him would get out. But of course he was pleased with that. He 
wanted to suffer for everybody else's wrongs. 

Q. Had he stated his intentions at any time to you? 

A. Oh, yes, he did. He felt that what might happen to him was 
very unimportant to whatever he could do to help Ireland. 

Q. Anything that you think would interest the Commission, and 
that you would like to tell, about what happened to your husband, 
just tell the Commission. 

A. I think I would like to describe the trial. Of course I always 
knew what my husband's motives and intentions were. He had no 
other idea in his head but to die for his country if need be. 


Q. Describe the trial then. 

A. Might I read my husband's speech at this trial? It is quite 

Q. Yes, certainly. Did he make it in the beginning of the trial? 

A. No. We went upstairs then. There were several soldiers 
standing around him armed to the teeth. The room was full of 

Q. Before what sort of a court was he tried? 

A. A court-martial — soldiers. 

Q. In uniform? 

A. Oh, yes. One of them was presiding. 

Q. How many judges? 

A. Three judges — three soldiers. 

Q. How long a time did the trial last? 

A. For three hours. They kept him there for such petty things. 

Q. Did he make a statement? 

A. Yes. he did. I will read you this. First of all, when they 
brought the charges against him, they asked him if he had anything 
to say. He said that if he was an ordinary individual, like he was 
before he was elected, he would not say anything at all. He would 
disregard the charges, because he never recognized England's courts, 
which have no right to function in Ireland. But he said that because 
he was Lord Mayor of the city, he represented more than himself, 
and that was why he spoke. He said this more or less at the end 
of the charges. 

Q. What was the charge against him? 

A. There were three charges, one of which was that when they 
arrested him when they raided the city hall, they found in his desk 
the text of a speech he had made when he was made Lord Mayor. 
Of course this was made six months before, and it had been pub- 
lished in all the papers, and so if there was anything objectionable 
in it, they could have mentioned it sooner. As a matter of fact, he 
had a right to make any speech in Ireland that he liked. 

Q. Were there any other charges? 

A. Yes, he was charged with having the code used by the police. 

Q. And yet he was the chief magistrate of the city? 

A. Yes. What he said was that he was the chief magistrate, 
and he had the right to have anything like that that he wanted. He 
said the English had no right to have such a code. He said it was 
illegal for any citizen of the Irish republic to have such a code 
without his permission. 

Q. In the city of Cork? 

A. In the city of Cork, yes. 


Q. There was a third charge? 

A. Yes, there was. It was a resolution that was passed by the 
corporation recognizing Dail Eireann and renouncing allegiance to 
England. It was passed by every public body all over Ireland, and 
if they wanted to arrest everybody who had passed that, they simply 
could not do it, because the jails could not hold them. 

Q. There was no other charge? 

A. That was all. Shall I read this (indicating paper)? 

The Commissioners: Yes, please. 


The Witness (reading) : 

"We see in the manner in which the late Lord Mayor was mur- 
dered an attempt to terrify us all. Our first duty is to answer that 
threat in the only fitting manner: to show ourselves unterrified, 
cool, and inflexible for the fulfillment of our chief purpose — the 
establishment of the independence and the integrity of our country 
and the peace and the happiness of the Irish Republic. To that 
end I am here. This contest on our side is not one of rivalry or 
vengeance, but of endurance." 

I would like to say something about that. My husband, as I said 
before, was essentially charitable — a very charitable man. It was 
his chief characteristic. He hadn't anything like vengeance in him. 
And certainly he wished for nothing more than that the English 
would be gone out of our country and that we could be good friends 
with them then. 

"It is not those who can inflict the most, but those who can suffer 
the most, who will conquer, though we do not abrogate our function 
to demand that murderers and evil-doers be punished for their 
crimes. It is conceivable that the army of occupation could stop 
our functioning for a time. Then it becomes simply a question of 
endurance. Those whose faith is strong will endure to the end in 

Well, of course, my husband was one of the first in Ireland who 
started this movement, and a great many people were against it 
then; they did not believe that we could be free from England. In 
Dublin the Irish people were always better off than in Cork, for 
in Cork they had a very hard time in the beginning. So only for 
my husband's great faith in our country and his fa\th that they 
would win out, I don't suppose that we would be vfry far along 


"God is over us, and in His divine intervention we must have 
perfect trust. 

"Anyone surveying the events in Ireland in the past five years 
must see that it is approaching a miracle how our country has been 
preserved during a persecution unexampled in history, culminating 
in the murder of the head of our great city. You among us who 
have no vision have been led astray by false prophets. I will give 
a recent example. Only last week in our city a judge, acting for 
English usurpation in Ireland and speaking in the presumptuous 
manner of such people, ventured to lecture us and uttered this 
pagan sentiment: 'There is no beauty in liberty that comes to us 
in innocent blood.' At one stroke this judge would shatter the 
foundations of Christianity by denying beauty to that spiritual 
liberty that comes to us dripping in the blood of Christ crucified. 
He, by His voluntary sacrifice on Calvary, delivered us from the 
domination of the devil when the pall of evil was closing down 
and darkening the world. The liberty for which we strive today is 
a sacred thing, inseparably entwined with that spiritual liberty for 
which the Savior of man died and which is the foundation of all 
just government. Because it is sacred, and death for it is akin to 
the sacrifice on Calvary, following far off and yet constant to that 
divine example, in every generation our best and bravest have died. 
Sometimes in our grief we cry out the foolish and unthinking words, 
'The sacrifice is too great.' 

"It is not we who take innocent blood, but we offer it, sustained 
by the example of our immortal dead and that divine example which 
inspires us all for the redemption of our country. Facing our 
enemy, we must declare our attitude simply. We see in their regime 
a thing of evil incarnate. With it there can be no parley any more 
than there can be truce with the powers of Hell. We ask no mercy 
and we will accept no compromise. 

"The civilized world dare not look on indifferent while new 
tortures are being prepared for our country, or they will see under- 
mined the pillars of their own government and the world involved 
in unimaginable anarchy. But if the rulers of earth fail us, we still 
have refuge in the Ruler of Heaven, and though to some the judg- 
ments of God seem slow, they never fail, and when they fall they 
are overwhelming." 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Now that was the speech which your hus- 
band delivered as his inaugural speech on being; made Lord Mayor 
of Cork? 

A. No. I have that here also. 


Q. Senator Norris: This is the speech that he delivered at his 

Mr. F. P. Walsh : This is the speech, is it not — if it is not, correct 
me — that your husband made at his inaugural as Lord Mayor of 
Cork, and the document with which he was charged with having 
in his possession which they claimed to be seditious? 

A. That was practically the same. This was the speech that he 
made at his trial. 

Q. Have you another one there? 

A. Yes. This was the speech he made when he was made Lord 
Mayor (indicating another paper). 

Q. He delivered this speech at the trial? 

A. Yes, practically the same thing. 

I wish to say something else. You know this speech was one 
of the charges against him. Of course, one of the soldiers, the 
president of the court, read the speech, and even coming from him, 
it made a very great impression on everybody there. And even 
on the soldiers — no matter who they were — it impressed everybody. 


As I told you, I think I felt that day more myself than at any 
other time. Because now I felt that my husband was going to die. 
After that I was accustomed to it. The shock was more in the 
beginning for me. Of course I was upset, although I did not mean 
to be. But when he spoke himself, he made me feel all right. You 
have heard, I suppose, of the message that he sent to the men of 
Cork, that when we are doing work for Ireland, it should be not 
in tears but in joy. And so I think that it is Ireland that has kept 
me up all through. That is the only thing. There has been noth- 
ing else. 

Q. When was he removed from Cork? 

A. He was removed that night, or at four o'clock the next morn- 
ing, I believe. 

Q. Senator Norris: What was the result of the trial? 

A. He was found guilty by the court-martial. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: And sentenced to what? 

A. To two years. Of course he told them then that it meant 
nothing what his sentence was, because in a month's time he would 
be free, either alive or dead. None of us dreamed that it would be 
a month. I certainly did not think it would be more than a fort- 
night at the outside, and I did not think it would be that much. 

Q. You say that after you heard his speech you were reconciled? 


A. Of course I was always reconciled, bul after that I fell quite 
happy about his work. 


Q. You say you went to London? 

A. Yes. but I was able to speak to him after the trial. I asked 
one of the officers going out where they were going to take him. 
Of course he knew. He did not deny that he knew, but you know 
they are very petty. He would not tell me anything. My husband 
was taken off that night in the state he was in on a submarine. 1 
They were afraid to take him from Cork during the day. He was 
taken to Pembroke in the submarine, and arrived there about two 
o'clock in .the afternoon, and he was kept waiting until about six 
o'clock. Of course his sufferings were terrible coming over in a 
submarine. In an ordinary boat it would have been very different. 
He arrived in London about half-past two in the morning. They 
were afraid to take him there during the day. It was put in the 
London papers at first that he did arrive during the day. But that 
was a lie. And then he was taken to Brixton prison. My sister- 
in-law who is here went over first. My mother was not there, so 
she could not take the baby for me. Some people with whom I 
had been staying since Christmas, who were very kind to me, took 
it. I left on Saturday morning, and went straightway to see my 

Q. Where was he then? 

A. In Brixton prison. 


Before I saw him one of the doctors of the prison spoke to me. 
He was not the head doctor. This was Dr. Higson. Of course he 
was an Englishman. He said to me, "You will see your husband 
in a few minutes, and will you not try to get him to take food?'" 
He said he hoped I would see the foolishness of what he was doing. 
The greatest danger was not if he lost his life, but if he was injured 
for life. And he said, of course, that any injury which he would 
receive from the hunger strike might harm our children. I told 
him that I understood that, and it was perfectly true, and I under- 

1 The witness referred to a torpedo boat destroyer. See correction by- 
Miss Mary MacSwiney, page .110. 


stood the harm of going without food, and of course from a health 
point of view I quite agreed with him; but that I did not interfere 
with my husband in anything, especially in a matter of conscience; 
and each one was the best judge in matters of conscience of what 
he should do. He could not say very much to that. I saw my 
husband then. I saw a great change in him. He looked very badly 

Then we used to see him every day. And after a bit, I think it 
was about a fortnight, the head doctor came back. He had been 
away. And of course he often asked me to ask my husband to take 
food. We never had anything like scenes, because I do not give 
people opportunity to do that, to have a fight or anything like 
scenes. We were always very civil to each other. But he thought 
it was utter foolishness for a man to refuse to eat when he always 
had food before him. Being an Englishman, he could not under- 
stand why a man should die for a principle. But the subordinate 
doctor, I must say, was more sympathetic. He never urged me to 
get my husband to take food after that one time when he told me 
what it would mean for our children, which I think from an Eng- 
lish doctor's point of view I did not mind his putting before me. 
He did not say much more to me after that, but the other ones did. 
The specialist, Sir Norman Moore, came in to see him too, and he 
was also quite sympathetic. 

Q. Did you see your husband every day? 

A. I saw him every day. After a bit he did not like to be there 
without some one of us. My brother-in-law came over, and his 
other sister afterwards. For of course we were afraid that he would 
die any moment. Nothing but his faith kept him alive. There is 
no doubt about that. He did not like to be left alone, so one of us 
would go in the morning, and another at noon, and another in the 
evening, and like that. 


This went on for some time. My husband was perfectly peaceful 
and happy. I do not think I could have gone on like that if I had 
not seen him every day, because he absolutely radiated peace. He 
told me in the beginning that one reason that he was glad to be 
doing what he was doing was that he had not taken a part in any 
of the dangerous things in Ireland, except the rebellion, and of 
course they did not fight in Cork; and he hated their being in danger 
when he was not in any. But what could he do? So he told me 
that he felt what he was doing was as dangerous as anything, and 


on account of that he was glad to do it. He always wished to die 
for his country. He never had any other thought. 

Things went on very much the same. We always saw him. After 
a bit they got two nurses for him, one for the day and the other 
for the night. 

My husband was very charitable, and he never said a word 
against anyone. The doctors and nurses told me that the only 
thing which he did say — he didn't like the head doctor — and he said 
once, "I am fed up with him." 


Then it came to the Wednesday before he died. There isn't very 
much to tell up to that. Well, the Wednesday before he died, the 
news had already come that one of the hunger strikers in Cork was 
dead. Of course, the doctors had promised us that they would not 
feed him and would not put any food in his medicine or anything 
of that kind, but they said that if he became unconscious that they 
would feed him. 

Of course, if a person becomes unconscious, they are unconscious, 
and they have no will of their own; and they could do anything 
they liked with him. And so feeding him when he was unconscious 
was like feeding him when he was dead. Of course they did prom- 
ise not to feed him at all, or to make any attempt to forcibly feed 
him — it would have been forcible, as long as he was conscious. 
It was on Tuesday, the Tuesday before my husband died, the news 
came from Cork to London of the death of one of the hunger 
strikers there. Of course he had gone a bit longer than my husband. 
This frightened the doctors in the prison. One of them went to 
my husband on his usual visit, and he turned everybody out of the 
room, including the nurse, which was not usual, for she always re- 
mained there. One of my sisters-in-law was there at. the time. When 
she went back into the room my husband was terribly upset, fright- 
fully upset, and he said that this doctor told him that he had to eat, 
he would make him eat. When I got there in the evening the other 
doctor, the second doctor, whom I do not think would have done a 
thing like that, was on duty. My sister-in-law said to him that Dr. 
Griffiths, the head doctor, had threatened to make my husband eat 
and had made him awfully uneasy that morning. When I went in 
my husband was quiet like usual, but looking very badly — worse 
than usual. 


The next morning I was in the office of the Self -Determination 
League in London. The papers wished to get bulletins, and your 
American papers, too, wished to get bulletins on my husband's con- 
dition every two hours. We were allowed to use the prison tele- 
phone^ — they did not make any difficulty at all whatever about it. 
All the news was sent out from the office of the Self -Determination 
League; and of course, if there was any news about my husband 
for us, we would get it there. I happened to be in there in the 
morning. My two brothers-in-law were in there too. I was told 
that a telephone message had come, and that they were afraid the 
news was bad. So I and my brothers-in-law went out to the prison 
with Mr. O'Brien, who is the president of the Self-Determina- 
tion League. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Mr. Arthur O'Brien? 

A. Mr. Arthur O'Brien, yes. Do you know him? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I know him very well. 

The Witness: So we went out, and when we got there we heard 
that my husband had become quite delirious. My sister-in-law — 
not this one, but the other 1 — was with him. There was hammering 
going on outside, and my husband said to her, "That is Dr. Griffiths' 
new treatment." She said, "Shall I stop it?" And he said, "No," 
and then went out of his head completely. She asked the warden 
to telephone to the office so we would know, and he was very reluc- 
tant to do it. It was half-past twelve when we got there. Both of 
my brothers-in-law and my sisters-in-law were there then. They 
said my husband was normal again. But when I went in I saw that 
he was not. He was fairly himself, but not completely. The others 
all went away then but myself and the sister-in-law. We remained 
there. And he said to me, "I want the nurse." The nurse was at 
her dinner. My husband always had a most extraordinary con- 
sideration for everybody, and when he asked for the nurse when 
she was at her .dinner, I knew he was not right. Then they asked 
us to go outside the door. We always went outside the door when 
they asked us; we never made any difficulties about that. And we 
heard my husband shouting out, and we went in then, and he was 
sitting up in bed and shouting. It was the delirium, because before 
this he could not hardly move a finger, and he spoke only in a 
whisper. And he was sitting up in bed and crying quite strong 
and saying, "This nurse will not let me have my wife and sister." 

Miss Annie MacSwiney. 


And we said, "Here we are, 1 ' and he knew us perfectly well. That 
was the worst of it. And in other things he was as mad as could 
be. But one thing he said to me then, when I came into the room, 
I liked. He said, "'Muriel, you have always stuck by me." And 
he was very bad then, and talked rubbish. He could not have been 
more mad than he was. I have seen mad people, and they were not 
worse. And then Dr. Higson came up, who had always acted like 
a gentleman to me. He stroked him and got him to lie down; but 
of course he went on throwing him arms about and talking. And 
then they gave him morphia, and then he got quieter, and in about 
an hour he was asleep. I stayed for quite a good time, but did 
not disturb him. 


I must tell you this occurrence. I wanted to do the best I could 
and wanted to try to make him better, and did not know what 
to do. I used to speak to him a little, and then the nurse said, "I 
think it is better not to speak to him, because it disturbs him." And 
so from that time on I did not speak to him, thinking it might 
disturb him. In fact. I never spoke to him first because it was hard 
for him to respond. But if he spoke, I answered him back, because 
we did not want to cross him and offend him when he was ill. He 
would say to me, "This is awful for you because you have to stay 
here." And I said, "It is a better time than we have had since we 
were married or since you have been Lord Mayor, because I can 
be with you all the time." And then we laughed. Anyway, he got 
bad during the night. Of course I was not there. All up to that 
time, although my husband had got terribly emaciated, his mind 
was perfectly clear and anybody could recognize him, because the 
face is the last thing that the hunger strike affects. For instance, 
a friend of mine who was our bridesmaid stayed with me all the 
time I was in London. She did not ask to see him. She was very 
sensible. But he asked to see her when she was going home, and' 
so she went to see him. She said she would have known him quite 
well, although of course it gave her a great shock to see him. Up 
to that time, although he was delirious, you would have known him. 
But the next morning when I went in, I would not have known him 
at all. He was very quiet, and only moved his hands a little bit. 
That was Wednesday he got bad. The next day was Thursday. On 
Friday I was there in the evening. Of course they started feeding 
him when he was unconscious. And the nurse used to do that. I 
know very well that as long as the nurse was there at all, she had 


to do what the doctor told her, and I never interfered with her in 
any way. I would not have spoken to her while she was doing it, 
because I was at one side of the bed and she was at the other, and 
I might have disturbed my husband. He never understood anything 
that was going on about him, I know, but there was a chance that 
it might have disturbed him, so I never said anything to her at all. 
Well, on Friday I was there in the evening, and my bnother-in-law, 
the one who was in New York, Peter, he was there with me. And 
then the doctor came in in the evening. This was the one, the 
head one, Dr. Griffiths. Of course I went out of the room. We both 
went out of the room. We always did when the doctor was there, 
naturally. When he came out he told the warder to tell me that 
we were not to go into the room any more, any of us; that we were 
not to go into the room at all. I must say that after he got very 
bad the nurse used to turn us out very often. So they now said 
also that we were not even to stay outside the door. You see, when 
we would go outside the room before, we used to stay outside the 
door always. And they also stopped up every little hole or window 
we could see through. The warder said we could not stay outside 
the door, and I said I wanted to speak to the doctor, and he went 
down and found him. And I asked him if he was dying,, if he 
would not want his wife to be near him. And he said he would. 
And he said it was bad for us to be in the room, so many of us. 
And I said, "We will go out and only one stay." And then he laid 
it onto the nurse. He said the nurse said it was bad for so many 
of us to be in the room. And I said, "What harm have I done since 
I have been here with my husband?" And he said nothing. He 
could not tell me a single thing that I had done to harm my hus- 
band. After a bit — he was a very weak man, you see — he gave in. 
I suppose he got orders to do this from the Home Office, but he 
gave in. And he said I could go in there when the nurse permitted 
me to, and that I could stay outside the door. I said, "I cannot 
be here always, and what will we do when I cannot be here?" He 
said, "I cannot refuse you, because you are his wife." But he had 
refused me previously. But he said the others could come there, 
but they would have to stay downstairs, a long distance away, and 
could not stay outside the door. I said that the only conclusion 
we could come to when they kept us outside of my husband's room 
was that they were doing something they did not wish us to see. 
So he finally said that when I could not be there, I could name one 
of the others to stay with my husband when the nurse permitted. 
Then I went upstairs. There was another nurse there, a new one, 
and I asked her if it was true that she had said I was not to go into 


my husband's room, and she said it was. And I put the same ques- 
tion to her I had put to the doctor; and she said, "No, you do not 
interfere with me. You have never interfered with me when I was 
feeding him. But I know you are against it, and it makes me 
nervous." They were feeding him. They were giving him two 
teaspoonfuls of liquid food. 

Q. When did they begin that? 

A. Five days before his death. That was Wednesday, and he 
died the following Monday. I said to her, "Of course, I can quite 
understand that as long as you are here, you have to do what the 
doctor tells you; but if I were you I would not take a case like this." 
She knew she was not doing right. But she said, "I have taken this 
case and I must see it out." But my husband never said a word 
against this nurse, never a word. 

I must tell you this, that she let me in the room just a few mo- 
ments at a time. I was just outside the room, but I hardly ever 
saw my husband at all. 


Q. Senator Walsh: Did the newspapers of Great Britain an- 
nounce that he was being fed? 

A. Yes, they did. 

Q. There were announcements in the American press that his 
relatives were feeding him. 

A. Yes, that was British propaganda. 

Q. Where did those announcements come from? 

A. From the British government. It was British propaganda. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: As a matter of fact, did his relatives at any 
time put food before him? 

A. Never. His relatives never did that. 

Q. Did the prison officials offer him food? 

A. Yes, always; it was always beside him. 

Q. Did they bring him fresh food? 

A. Oh, yes; it was milk and broth and things like that that he 
would have had if he got out. Food was always put before him. 


The next day was Saturday. My brother-in-law had been there 
with him through the night, and my sister-in-law was there to relieve 
him. I found her in the waiting room just inside the gate, and then 
she told me that they would not let her in; they had refused to let 


her into the prison at all. The same sort of business that had been 
going on the night before. 

They would not let her out to telephone either, and she could not 
send any message to my brother-in-law either. He was accustomed 
to be relieved in the morning, after being there all night. I went 
upstairs immediately, and it was about ten-thirty, and the nurse 
would not let me in. 

As I said, I had always telephoned about noon to Mr. O'Brien's 
office about the condition of my husband. They had never made 
the slightest objection to it. The clerk now said I could not use the 
telephone, and I said, "By whose orders?" And he said, "By the 
governor's order." And he said very politely that he would speak 
to the governor if I wished. And I said I would speak to him 
myself. And I went up to the governor and asked him, and he said 
it was his orders. And I said, "I wanted to know, because of course 
your government is murdering my husband. You are only an in- 
strument. But I want to know whether you are carrying out their 
orders." The governor said that we were using the telephone too 
much. I said we had never used the telephone much, and only 
with their permission. The deputy governor came up, and said 
we had always respected their wishes and had not used the telephone 
very much. He then had to admit it. I said another thing: "You 
must have got orders about this, so that they are stopping us from 
going in to see my husband." I think he was surprised at that, but 
he said, "You are very well treated here. You are using this place 
like a hotel, coming in here any moment you like." And I said, 
"This is hardly like a hotel. My husband does not wish to be 
here, and you are keeping him against his will." And he said, 
"Even in ordinary hospitals there are visiting hours, and you are 
not allowed to see your friends at any time." And I said, "In an 
ordinary hospital we would have put my husband there with people 
whom we trusted." I did not have any fight with him, but he had 
nothing to say. He sent a message up in the afternoon that if I had 
anything to telephone and wrote it on a piece of paper, they would 
send it. Of course you know what that would have meant. 

When my sister-in-law came in later, she was refused in the same 
manner. When I got back to the room the nurse let me in about 
half-past twelve, and then I was turned out again. 


(Senator Thomas Walsh, of Montana, arrives and is escorted to 
the Commissioners' bench.) 

She let me in for half an hour, and then I was asked to go out. 
She made some excuse like she had to take his temperature. I 
expect she was feeding my husband. And then I was in again a 
half hour later. Then the head doctor, Dr. Griffiths, came in and 
asked the nurse to go out, and I went out too. So I had only about 
a half hour with my husband that day. As a matter of fact, it was 
the last day I saw him; but I think he may have half known me that 
day, because he smiled a little bit when I kissed him. I do not 
know, but I think he did. 

There was another thing about my husband that I want to men- 
tion. I think the hardest thing on him was being separated from 
his little daughter. And I asked him if he would like to have her 
over, and he said, "Oh, no; it would only be cruelty to have her 
over," and she would not recognize him if she saw him because he 
was so changed. 

That day Mr. O'Brien came up and took me to the Home Office, 
and we spoke to them there, protesting about the treatment of my 
sister-in-law and myself, and requesting them to let my husband's 
relatives be near him. Of course they refused; and they refused 
about the telephone point blank. There was no humanity in them 

The next morning was the first time that I collapsed at all. I had 
kept up until then and really felt very well. But the next morning 
I felt ill and could not go, and went to bed again. And in the 
afternoon, since I was about the only person that was allowed in 
the room, Mr. O'Brien took me down in a taxi. I opened the door 
and the nurse was there, and she said, "Would you wait outside a 
few minutes?" I had not been there at all that day, and my 
brother-in-law had not been there. I must tell you that the day 
before I had not been allowed in to see him until half-past twelve, 
although I had come about ten. This day the nurse said, "Would 
you wait just a little while?" They had a habit then of having a 
warder just inside the door. And I opened the door again in about 
five minutes and asked if I could go in, and he said he would ask 
the nurse, and she said no, she was taking his temperature. And in 
about five minutes more, about twenty minutes from the time I 
came, I sent in word again if I could see him, and she said no, I 
could not. And so I did not see my husband again until after his 


The next day my brother-in-law 1 was there, and his chaplain, 
Father Dominick, and they saw him. He was dead, and he looked 
like a perfect martyr. 


Shall I tell you about the inquest? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: Yes. 

The Witness: That was on Wednesday. I was in bed after he 
died. But they thought it was important for me to be at the inquest, 
and I went. I was addressed by the coroner, who asked me my 
address. I was puzzled, because we had no address. We could not 
have a home. And I said, "Cork." And he said, "Cork is a big 
place." But that was the best I could do. He asked me my hus- 
band's profession, and I said, "An officer of the Irish Republican 
Army." And he said that was no profession. Being English, he 
could not understand why a man should have a profession when he 
was not working for money. And I said, "You have an army, and 
you have officers." And then I think he understood, quite. Of 
course I told him that my husband did not wish to die. And the 
specialist who had seen him, Sir Norman Moore, had said so too. 
I was glad that we called him in. I told them that as soon as my 
husband got out, he would take food and get better. He was only 
on hunger strike, as you know, as a protest for being arrested ille- 
gally; arrested by the forces of England in Ireland. It was illegal 
for them to arrest the Lord Mayor, the chief magistrate of the city 
of Cork. It was against the laws of the Irish Republic that they 
should do such a thing. 


When the inquest was over our solicitor asked the Crown solicitor 
for my husband's body. And he said, "Where is the funeral to take 
place?" And my brother-in-law said, "In Cork, of course." Then 
the chief solicitor said, "You cannot do that. You must get a 
permit to take his body out of England." And he said we should 
ask the governor. And we asked the governor and he referred us 
to the Home Office. And so Mr. O'Brien and Mr. MacDonald and 
I all went to the Home Office. We saw Mr. Shortt, and he hemmed 
and hawed and all that, but tried to evade telling us anything defi- 
nite. I never met a man who was a greater brute. He was not a 
gentleman, anyway not in his outside manner. He was just jesting 

John MacSwiney. 


and laughing all the time. I said, "I understand that there was a 
technical difficulty about my husband's body coming with us, but 
I suppose there would be no difficulty." He said, "I know nothing 
at all about it." They all say that over there. And I said, "I sup- 
pose I can go and take my husband's body." And he then got 
afraid, and he said, "Oh, you cannot do that. There may be some 
law against it." And I said, "Will you find out what the law is? 
How long will it take you to do it?" He said, "I cannot tell you 
how long it may take — an hour or more. I don't know." I said, 
"Do you refuse to give me my husband's body?" And he said, 
"Oh, no; I cannot say that." 

One of Mr. Shortt's secretaries came out with us. I must say 
that he was a contrast to Mr. Shortt. He gave me a chair and asked 
me if I wanted to sit down. He said that if we would come back 
in an hour, he would see about it. He said they would make 
arrangements and perhaps give us a special boat to go to Dublin. 
Of course our arrangements had been made. When Mr. MacDonald 
saw him a little later, Mr. Shortt said it would be all right, and he 
was sorry there had been any delay, and of course it had absolutely 
nothing to do with him, and that we could take the body. My 
sister-in-law will tell you what happened afterwards and how they 
broke their word. 


Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Senator Walsh would like to ask you a few 

Senator Walsh: I would like to ask you what the spirit of the 
Irish women in Ireland is about the establishment of the Irish 

A. Just what mine is and what my husband's was. Of course 
we all want our Republic and we want England gone, and there 
will not be peace in the world until we get it. 

Q. To what extent have the women organized and taken action? 

A. They have a society called the Cumann na niBan. That is 
a society of women like the Red Cross. But I think my sister-in-law 
can tell you more about that than I can. Especially after the baby 
came, I minded the baby myself. 

Q. Do you know anything about the present sufferings of the 
people, especially among the women and children in Ireland? 


A. Yes, indeed I do. The Black-and-Tans — one of the things 
they did was to prevent the people going into the shops and buying 
food. Also, they are destroying creameries, and that means no milk 
distributed in the towns for the children. And of course there has 
always been a great deal of poverty in Ireland, as I told you; and 
they are making things a hundred times worse. 

Q. Is it your opinion that relief is needed in Ireland? 

A. It is absolutely essential or all the people will die. 

Q. To what extent was the policy of starvation being carried out 
when you left Ireland? 

A. Well, I left Ireland three months ago, you see, and it is since 
then that all that has come in force. I was ill, of course, and did 
not go back for my husband's funeral, but my sister-in-law did, and 
she can tell you. 

Q. You did not go to your husband's funeral? 

A. No, I was ill. My sister-in-law was there. I was only in 
Ireland for a few days before I came on. The day I was there they 
shot into a football match and killed several people. 

Q. Were you there at the game? 

A. No. But then in Cork it was very much the same. They 
threw a bomb into a crowd and killed four people. One young 
man whom I knew, they took both his legs off, and he did not die 
until the next day. And of course ever so many people were in- 
jured. My sister-in-law can tell you ever so much more about that. 

But even before I left for England there were motor lorries and 
armored cars going through the streets so close that often one could 
scarcely pass between them. One day while I was on the tram they 
fired. Nobody in the tram was hurt, but we all saw them fire. And 
these lorries full of soldiers have terrorized the countryside. There 
was a Mrs. Quinn, a younger woman than I am. She was sitting on 
a lonely country road, as I often did when I was in the country 
with the baby. She was sitting by the road with one baby, and 
was going to have another soon. And the Black-and-Tans came 
along the road in a lorry and shot her. 1 

Q. Had she committed any offense? 

A. Oh, no; none whatever. To prove that there was no one 
with her, it was some time before a priest came. It was a very 
out-of-the-way place. I felt that that case might have been mine. 

Q. Some one has related that the women of Ireland have steeled 
themselves to such an extent that weeping is unknown among them. 

A. Well, I never cry. 

Q. Is that the general feeling — that they must steel themselves 

The case of Mrs. Ellen Quinn of Gort, County Galway. 


A. Yes. it is. Weeping is almost unknown. But there is just 
one thing: you know I did not go back to my own country except 
for two or three days, but I never cried all through, not even at the 
end. But since I have been here I feel that there is so much sym- 
pathy — I am not speaking of sympathy in letters and what people 
say to me. but it is what I feel from everyone. But that sympathy 
has almost made me cry here, and it did yesterday, and I felt that 
I might not be able to go through this hearing today. 


Q. Did your husband ever say what he felt his sacrifice would 
do for Ireland? A. He hoped that it would strengthen them still 
further in their struggle for independence. 

Q. That was one of his considerations? 

A. That was, of course, the main consideration of his life. He 
never thought of anything else. 

Q. Where is your baby now? A. In Cork. 

Q. Is she well? A. Very well. Would you like to see her 
photo? I've just got it from home. 

The Commission: Very, very much. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Your husband's hunger strike lasted 
seventy-four days? A. Yes. 

Q. You saw your husband the last time how many days before 
his death? A. I saw him on Saturday. I was not allowed in at all 
on Sunday. And he died on Monday. 

Q. On Monday? A. I was not called at all when he died. He 
died at six. and I did not hear about it until eight o'clock. 

Q. Did the doctor persist in feeding him when he was uncon- 
scious until the very end? A. Oh, yes, and I think that that really 
killed him. It was terrible to see him when he was more helpless 
than our baby was when she was born. 

Q. That feeding continued from Wednesday, then, until 

A. Oh, yes. And I know that he was in pain, because I could 
see it on his face. Another time when I saw him in great pain was 
on the tenth day. He said to me that it was not so that people never 
desired food after the tenth day- He suffered right to the end. 

Q. He wanted food right to the end? A. Yes, indeed. 



I hope you will all help us win our Republic, because that was 
what my husband lived and died for. And we look on you in 
America very much as our own people, because you have been all 
so very kind to us. I looked upon this hearing as an ordeal, but 
it has not been at all. So I hope you will all do what you can 
for us. Also in the relief which I think has been started for Ire- 
land. But of course the chief thing is for Ireland to get her 

Q. Senator Walsh: Do you think the relief work is the greatest 
thing that can be done for the Irish people? 

A. Yes, I do; but I think recognizing our Republic is the most 
immediate. The people who have suffered and are suffering most 
from hunger would choose that, too. It is the most immediate. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 


Session Two, Continued 

Before the Commission, sitting in Odd Fellows' Hall, Washing- 
ton, D. C, December 9, 1920. 2:15 P. M. 


Chairman Howe: The hearings will proceed now if you will 
quiet down and take your seats. 

Mr. Frank P. Walsh: Now, Miss MacSwiney, I believe you said 
that you had not finished your remarks on some phases last evening 
that you would like to begin now with. I think Miss MacSwiney has 
a number of detail's that her sister-in-law was not familiar with. 

The Witness: What do you want me to begin with? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I think perhaps it might be well to tell the 
story of the taking of your brother to London, and what took place 
at Holyhead, and all that. 

The Witness: Then I am to tell my part in my brother's arrest 
and imprisonment? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: Yes, it would be well to tell that, and about his 


The Witness: I think it might be well for me to emphasize some- 
thing in my sister-in-law's story, something that she did not em- 
phasize very much. She is very young, and she was never used to 
fighting things out as we were, and the constant strain of her hus- 
band's being on the run, as we call it in Ireland — that is, avoiding 
arrest, especially that terrible time when she had to take a little 
baby of six weeks old from the south to the north of Ireland to see 
her father in prison, because we knew he would be arrested upon 
his release; and the result was that for months before my brother's 
final arrest she really was in a very precarious state of health. And 
that added very much to his troubles. From Christmas last until 
Easter she was so ill that she was unable to have her little baby 
with her, and the baby was with us all the time. Her husband went 
constantly to see her when he could. He occasionally spent a night 
with her. She was very ill indeed, but she did the best she could to 



keep up. At Easter time she was better. That was just before he 
was made Lord Mayor. You asked her to state what he said to her 
about that. I imagine he said very little, because he knew and we 
all knew that it would mean his death. And naturally he did not 
want to distress her by talking about that. 

At Easter time, that is, very shortly after he was made Lord Mayor, 
she got very much better, and the baby was taken up to see her just 
on the Saturday before Easter. At that time my sister and I had to 
go to Dublin on business, and we would have been very puzzled to 
know what to do about baby if her mother had not got better. She 
went up to her mother then, and was with her until she went to 
England. But all that time my brother was on the run — you know 
that on the run means evading arrest. 


Q. Senator Walsh: May I interrupt to ask you what per cent, 
of young men are on the run? 

A. I would say about ninety-nine per cent., — perhaps a hundred 
per cent, of the young men and some of the old men. 

Q. So that every young man of military age is, under present 
conditions, unable to live in his own home? 

A. Yes. Some of them do live there, but they take their chances. 
My oldest brother, who is an American citizen, is not sleeping at 
home with us simply because my sister will not have my brother in 
the house. Generally one looks upon one's brother as a protection. 
But when you have a house full of women, you can sometimes es- 
cape from the visits of the Black-and-Tans, who say that they are 
not shooting down women and children. They are doing it secretly, 
but they have not done it openly so far. But if they come to your 
house at night, they would shoot down any man they found there. 
My brothers have been staying with friends. My oldest brother said 
some time ago, "What is the use of sending me to So-and-So's house, 
for they are all on the run too, and it seems to me that all the men 
in Ireland are sleeping in one another's houses." But it saves them, 
because when the Black-and-Tans come to a house and find a man 
and ask him his name, and he does not happen to be the man they 
are looking for, they often do not take that man, and go away quite 

Another point is why we are not afraid during the day. My 
sister explained that. My brother always had a bodyguard during 
the day, and they did not arrest him, and would not ordinarily 
arrest any other man during the day because they would not want to 


be recognized. That is one reason. Another is that deeds of dark- 
ness are always done in the dark. We never fear arrest during 
the day. It is always at night that they conic. 

I can also tell you that a couple of nights when the searching 
seemed to slacken a little, my brother was in a very great need 
of rest, and he said he would sleep at home. I would like to em- 
phasize that "at home" always means our home, because, although 
they had two houses after they were married, he was never able 
to sleep at home. On a couple of occasions he was very tired and 
said, "I must absolutely have a night's rest, and I must risk it." 
One night when he decided to risk it, at half-past eleven there was 
a knock at the door. You can imagine our state of mind when at 
that hour there was a knock at the door, and we thought it was 
the military. That particular night it happened not to be the mili- 
tary. It was one of his Volunteers who came to tell him that the 
enemy were on his track and he would have to go. And he had 
to get up and go at that time of night. Another night when he 
and his bodyguard ventured to stay in the house, a similar mes- 
sage came. We were sure it was the military, and they got ready 
to defend themselves. They were not going to be taken alive. We 
went to the door, and we discovered it was another Volunteer sol- 
dier with the message that they were after him. But the two, my 
brother and his bodyguard, the two of them were there; and if 
they had come and trapped them, they would have sold their 
lives dearly. 

The result of it was that he got no rest. He did not try to stay 
at home a third time. That was the kind of a life they were living. 
He always went about guarded. All his meals were taken at our 
house. We are quite near, not more than six minutes' walk from 
the city hall. He w-as able to come over the bridges of the north 
and south channels quietly and take his meals. His last meal there 
was for tea at half-past five on the afternoon of his arrest. And 
then he went to the city hall and was arrested. 

Senator Walsh: When I interrupted you, you were speaking 
about the health of your sister-in-law, and you were talking about 
vour brother being on the run. 

The Witness: I don't think I need to say any more about my 
sister-in-law's health, except just that. She really did have a very 
hard time of it. and she broke down also just after the inquest. 
She broke down and was obliged to stay in London, as I said. 
There is a limit to human endurance, and some of us have had to 
go quite close to it. She could not do anything more for him, and 
I think she was too ill to go back to Cork and face thinsrs there. 



There is another thing. It is harder to face sympathy some- 
times than to face brutality. One of the senators asked if it is 
true that the women of Ireland have steeled themselves against 
tears. While we were in England it was a point of honor to us 
that the enemy should never see us cry. It does not mean that the 
women of Ireland do not have to cry sometimes in secret. And 
what my sister-in-law told you is true. We have been nearer to 
tears since we came to America than any time since we have 
been in England. That is why I say that sympathy is often harder 
to bear than cruelty. 

Our tormentors in England gave us the very great privilege of 
being with him from early morning to night, and my youngest 
brother stayed with him all night. That was a very great privi- 
lege, but we knew that it was not given to us for kindness. It 
was given to us because they thought that no body of women 
could go through that without breaking down, and if we would 
break down, it might cause my brother to break down. That was 
the reason for allowing us to see my brother. And it was very, 
very trying to see him dying by inches. 

In telling you my brother's story, I would like to confine myself 
to his prison experiences from the point of view of Ireland and 
not the personal point of view. I want to deal with the English 
propaganda to discredit him and to discredit Ireland's cause. And 
I will ask you to allow me to leave the personal side of it out of 
the question. 


When my brother was arrested, he was arrested on no particular 

Q. Senator Walsh: This was his last arrest? 

A. This was his last arrest. The charge was manufactured 
after the arrest. That was quite usual. They always manufacture 
the evidence. But I will come back to that later on. Perhaps 
there is one particular thing I had better tell you now. They have 
very often manufactured evidence in this way: they have sent 
anonymous letters to the houses of people which they were going 
to raid, addressed to the person they wanted to implicate. These 
anonymous letters were very often incitements to shoot policemen, 
and various things like that. If these letters were found, then they 


were immediately brought up as evidence. Now, this has hap- 
pened in several instances. On one particular morning the Countess 
de Markievicz got by the first post a letter with the copy of a 
police document which was of very great importance. She was 
clever enough, — we all have to keep our wits about us, — to put 
it straight in the fire. A half hour later the house was raided, and 
every letter — every bit of paper was examined. They were look- 
ing for that document which they themselves had sent. 

On Thursday my brother was arrested, on Thursday night at 
seven o'clock. On that afternoon, by the afternoon post, which 
comes between half -past four and five, a letter came addressed 
to The Lord Mayor of Cork, care of Miss Mary MacSwiney, Bel- 
grave Place, Cork. There was also an indication that I might open 
it. yes, it was addressed to the Lord Mayor or to Miss Mary 
MacSwiney, Belgrave Place, Cork. That came about a half hour 
before my brother came home to tea. I opened it. It was in a 
disguised handwriting, and purported to be from a Volunteer in 
Tipperary saying that the Volunteers in Tipperary were very lax 
in the people they allowed to go about, giving details about a 
certain policeman named Quinn, whom this letter said was causing 
a great deal of trouble, and urging that without further delay 
this man should be shot. I read the letter twice over. It was an 
anonymous letter. I tore it up and burnt it. When my brother 
came in, I told him what had happened. These things are so 
much matters of course that there was ' not much more comment 
made about it. 

They arrested him at seven o'clock. At midnight that night 
two military officers and a large body of men came to our house 
to raid it. They were sent for that letter. They wanted it for 
evidence against my brother. That is the sort of thing that we 
have to put up with. That is the sort of wicked propaganda — they 
manufacture that propaganda. If that letter had been found in 
my house — because they knew his letters always went there — if 
that letter had been found he would have been charged, not with 
the charges that were preferred against him, but on being the 
leader of a conspiracy to murder policemen. And they searched 
my house very thoroughly indeed that night to get evidence of 
his complicity in the murder of policemen. They did their best 
to manufacture it beforehand. And I would like to emphasize 
to you how we have to keep our wits sharpened to counter such 
propaganda. All through my brother's hunger strike, we have had 
to keep, as it were, two sides of us alive: we have had the per- 
sonal sorrow, on which I am not going to touch, — I don't want to 


mention that; we have also had to fight day and night the Eng- 
lish propaganda that was carried on to discredit him with the world. 
And I want, if you will have patience with me, to stress that in 


He was arrested on the twelfth of August, and kept in Cork 
jail. My sister-in-law told you that I went down to see her on 
Saturday. I saw him in Cork jail that morning, and that was 
the first intimation I had that he was hunger striking. He looked 
very bad then, although it was only his third day. On Saturday I 
went down to see her and to look after the baby. She decided she 
would not go until Monday morning. On Sunday morning I was 
awakened by a great friend of ours, a gentleman who lives across 
the water, who came down to tell us that he had information 
that my brother was to be court-martialed at eleven o'clock the 
next morning. That information was not given to us officially, 
but we found it out. She decided to go up at once, and I stayed 


Therefore I was not present at the trial, but I know that the 
speech he made at the trial stressed some points that were not 
brought out in the speech she read to you. He used practically 
the same terms that he used in his speech upon his inauguration 
as Lord Mayor. But he said that he was really the person who 
should be trying them, and he told those military officers, with 
respect to the charge that they emphasized particularly, the charge 
that he had a police code, that he was the only person in that 
city who should have a police code, and anybody else in that city 
who had a police code without his permission was guilty of an il- 
legal act, and it was his business to try them. They said they 
found the code in his desk. That was a lie. That was an absolute 
lie. The code at the time of his arrest was in the possession of 
somebody else. That person did not have time to destroy it, and he 
stuck it in a place that he thought might escape the attention of 
the military. It did not escape their attention. They captured it. 
They captured it outside the city hall in the yard. They did not 
capture it in the city hall at all. But they took it at once and 
put it in the Lord Mayor's desk, and said they found it there. 
That was a lie. However, that made no difference. The attitude 
my brother took was, as he said, "I accept absolute responsibility 
for that code, and I am the only one in the city who is entitled 
to have it." 


The other two charges, that he had a uniform of the Irish Re- 
publican Army and that he was the presiding officer of a body 
that had sworn allegiance to Dail Eireann, were due, of course, to 
the English attitude toward their authority in Ireland. And their 
right to assume that authority he denied absolutely. 


I do not think there is anything more I want to say about that, 
but I want to read one sentence of his speech upon his inaugura- 
tion as Lord Mayor. He says, in speaking of his comrade who had 
just been murdered' (he speaks of a meeting that was held im- 
mediately after the election), "I would recall some of my words at 
our first meeting after his election as Lord Mayor. I realize that 
most of us in the minority here were loyal citizens of the Irish 
Republic." I By the minority he means those who are Unionists 
and Nationalists in the Corporation. ) "I realize," he said, "that 
most of us in the minority here were loyal citizens of the 
Irish Republic, if the English occupation did not threaten your 
lives. But you lacked the spirit and the hope to join with us 
in the fight to complete the work already so well begun." That 
is our attitude toward the minority. We know they would be 
with us if some of them were not so much afraid of their lives. 
We also know that many Unionists are now coming over to us 
in large numbers. There is an old saying that nothing succeeds 
like success. And we have been so successful that those who 
used to be Unionists are now coming over to support the Republic. 

And another sentence he said: "The shining hope of our time is 
that the great majority of our people is now strong in that faith." 
(The faith that will endure to the end is what he means.) "To 
you, gentlemen of the minority, I would address a word. You 
seem to be hypnotized by that evil — the usurpation which calls 
itself self-government. I ask you again to take courage and hope. 
It seems to me, and I do not say it to hurt you, that you have a 
very lively faith in the power of the devil, and very little faith 
in the power of God." 

I quote these few sentences to show you what our spirit is 
toward the dwindling minority who uphold British rule in Ireland. 
They do not uphold it because they love it. They uphold it be- 
cause they fear it. But they will learn what we have long known, 

J His friend and predecessor, Lord Mayor Thomas MacCurtain. See 


that the only thing one should be afraid of in Ireland today is to 
be afraid of being afraid. 


When my sister-in-law came up to Cork on Monday, after my 
brother's arrest, I remained in Youghal. I did not know then 
she was coming down, but I got a telegram to catch the four 
o'clock train up to Cork. The gentleman who brought the tele- 
gram also offered to stay there and look after baby until my sister- 
in-law got back. She met me at the station and told me that the 
trial was over, and probably he would be deported that night, and 
that I had better go up at once, and that a special permission 
had been given for me to see him. I went up to Cork, arriving 
there about six o'clock. My sister had by that time received the 
letter from General Strickland, commander of the British forces, 
that I and my younger brother, who had not seen him during the 
day, might see my brother. We went up to the barracks. He was 
sitting in one of the large rooms, — evidently an officer's bedroom, 
and he was sitting there wrapped up in a big coat and evidently 
feeling very badly. I asked when he was to be sent away. The 
military officers said they did not know. Of course, they knew, 
but they had orders not to tell us. I said, "This thing is rather 
important to us. My brother has only the clothes he has on. If 
you are going to send him out of the country, we want to send 
him a suitcase with clothes." They said they did not know; they 
could not tell us; but they thought it would be wiser to send him 
the suitcase. My sister went down there then and had a suitcase of 
clothes and some things sent him. We tried hard to find where he 
was to be sent, but we could not find out. But the officers there 
tried to be as nice to us as they could, and we stayed there until 
half-past eight o'clock. That meant we could not see him again. 
So we stayed there until half-past eight and then we went away. 

The next thing was, as I told you, that at midnight the military 
searched our house, and I think they got very tired of it before 
long, because our house happens to be a school, and all the docu- 
ments of the school for the past four years were there, and I told 
them they had better take up their lodgings there for a fortnight 
if they expected to search all these things. They searched all the 
correspondence, however, but they did not find the letter that I 
had received that evening and had burned. That letter, of course, 
was sent by the British secret service department. 



On Friday we learned that he was at the miltary barracks, but 
we did not know what they were going to do with him. On Sat- 
urday he was sent to the Cork jail. On Tuesday he was sent over 
to England. I am going to tell you he did not go in a submarine, 
but in a British destroyer. My sister-in-law said a submarine. I 
am going to correct it, because if I did not mention that it was 
a destroyer and not a submarine, you would have all the pro- 
British papers in Britain and America crying out — they would take 
that one slip and would say that it was all a lie — that every word 
of the statement we have given here is a lie. That is why I want 
to be absolutely exact. That is why I want to make this small 
correction, because from one small slip that is a small inaccuracy, 
they would seek to discredit everything that we have said here, and 
would try to destroy what might be very important for Ireland. 
It was not a submarine. It was a British destroyer. But, as Arch- 
bishop Mannix has told us, they are not very comfortable things to 
travel on. They are not ocean liners meant for the comfort and 
convenience of their passengers. They are designed for the maxi- 
mum of use. 

Chairman Howe: Miss MacSwiney, if you will, just stop there. 
We are required to give up this hall at one o'clock, unfortunately. 
The meeting will be adjourned, and the hearings will be con- 
tinued at two-fifteen this afternoon at the Hotel LaFayette. 

(Adjournment 12:57 P. M.) 

Hotel LaFayette, 2:28 P. M. 

Chairman Howe: The hearings will begin now. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: Will you please continue, Miss MacSwiney? 
I think you were telling us about taking your brother over to 
England in a destroyer. 


The Witness : That was on the night of Monday or Tuesday morn- 
ing. I think he left Cork about four o'clock Tuesday morning. 
At least he was taken away during the curfew hours. And then 
we wired the authorities to know where he was, and we did not 
get any information. Meanwhile we wired friends in England 
to learn where he was. Mr. Arthur O'Brien put his machinery to 
work to know where he was. And he wired us that he was at 


Brixton. That was Thursday morning. The authorities also found 
out that he was over at Brixton. But I was half-way over when 
they wired. I left Cork immediately and arrived in London Fri- 
day morning, the twentieth of August, and I saw my brother that 
day. My sister-in-law arrived Saturday, and it was arranged that 
as soon as the situation got so dangerous that my brother was on 
the point of death, that I should send word to my sister and 
younger brother to come at once. We sent telegrams regularly 
twice a day home, and also telegrams were sent to the City Hall 
to tell how he was. When I saw my brother then on Friday, the 
twentieth, I did not think he could live a week. Dr. Higson, the 
doctor of the prison who was then in charge, told me he would 
give me word when my brother was at the point of death. He 
told me he would send me word in time to advise my sister. On 
the following Tuesday he had a very bad time, and he was so 
seriously ill that I did not wait any longer, but wired my brother 
and sister to come, too, and not wait any longer. When they did 
come he collapsed quite. It was a very bad time. As you were 
told in the beginning, about the tenth day is a very bad time. 

Then he seemed to remain stationary. Then when it was about 
half over he got very great pains, a kind of neuritis. And then 
at the end time, there was nothing but very great weakness. You 
can understand what his sufferings were, and therefore I do not 
want to linger on that point. 


I want to speak of the English anti-Irish propaganda on the 
whole situation. We were allowed, as I said this morning, un- 
limited access to my brother, even to the extent of allowing my 
youngest brother to remain in the prison all night long. That 
seemed very kind, but I believe it was done not so much to be kind 
to us as to break my brother down. England, from the point 
of view of getting a victim, got a very bad one in the case of my 
brother. The doctors were obliged to report that forcible feeding 
would not do in his case. They sometimes try forcible feeding so 
the prisoner will not starve himself to death. Forcible feeding in 
my brother's case would only have accelerated his death. On ac- 
count of an attack of pleurisy in his infancy he had a weak spot 
in his lungs, and therefore forcible feeding would only have 
hastened his death. 

The second mistake England made was the bringing of him 


from Cork to London. They dare not forcibly feed a man in Cork 
now, but they thought they could do it in London. If they had 
kept him in Cork I am quite sure they would have kept the knowl- 
edge of what was going on from the world; and probably you 
would never have heard of it, and we would not have received your 
invitation to come and testify about the wrongs of Ireland. By 
taking him to London, he was in the spot where newspaper re- 
porters from all quarters of the world are. And the result was 
that the reasons of that hunger strike were heralded all over the 
world, and did more good for Ireland than anything that has 
happened for a hundred and fifty years. It did far more good 
for Ireland than Easter Week did, for this reason : many people 
said it was not an opportune time for us to strike at England. 
We were stabbing England in the back, we were told. France 
was very angry with us, and France has always been a friend of 
ours. And France to this day has not forgiven us. We are very 
sorrv, for France has always been a friend of ours, but we cannot 
help it. France would take care of herself in the same way. That 
is one reason why Easter week did not help us so much with the 
outside world. It was not so good a propaganda for us as my 
brother's death was. 

And then again, it would not have done so much good for Ire- 
land if they had not taken him to London and his family had 
not moved over there and settled there with him. England was 
very much surprised at the great wave of sympathy beginning to 
go throughout the whole world, and then she began to try to 
counter that propaganda in every way she could. The papers be- 
gan to say that the doctors were feeding him; that they were giv- 
ing him proteids in his medicine. I called the doctors' attention 
to it. and they pooh-poohed it and said, "Who cares what the news- 
papers say? Who pays any attention to it?" Those are the words 
of the English doctors, gentlemen of the press, and not mine. 



When we arrived there the only doctor in charge was Dr. Hig- 
son, the second doctor. A little later Dr. Griffiths, the senior doc- 
tor, came on. A little later on the junior doctor came on, and our 
little contact with him showed him the worst of the three. Dr. 
Griffiths was a very capable man, and the willing tool — I say it 
deliberately — the willing tool of the Home Office in everything they 
did. Dr. Higson was a very humane man. whose attitude showed 


that he sympathized with my brother, but he was helpless. One 
day in talking with him and he was pointing out his helplessness, 
I told him one position he might take, although I knew he would 
not. He could have come out and condemned his government and 
resigned his position for its inhumanity. Of course he would 
not do it. That was asking an Englishman to be heroic. Of Dr. 
Higson I have nothing to say but good. He made our time at 
Brixton as comfortable as he could, and I do not blame him for 
anything that happened. His only fault was that his courage was 
not equal to his heart. 

The third doctor I have nothing to say about. I had very little 
conversation with him. The only real question I think I ever 
put to him was on the day when my sister and I were locked 
out of the prison, and the Home Office said it was by the doctor's 
orders. I spoke to each doctor individually. I said, "Doctor, the 
Home Office says that the doctors are responsible for our being 
denied permission to see my brother," and I asked him, "Are you 
the responsible one?" And he answered, "Am I? Perhaps." That 
was all, but it was given with a sneer and a toss of the head that 
showed him to be the most contemptible creature on the face of 
the earth. 


I want to deal now with propaganda. I asked the doctors to 
make a statement that they were not putting food in my brother's 
medicine, and they refused. That was getting such world-wide 
publicity — the newspaper reporters from all over the world were 
coming to us to know if that was possible, and the belief was 
getting so general that it was being done that we had to counter- 
act it somehow. 

I am going to give you now a piece of information that is given 
for the first time to anybody. We stole some of the medicine. We 
abstracted a dose of the medicine from under the very eyes of the 
jailer, and we had it analyzed. The analysis proved that there 
was absolutely nothing in the medicine but just what the doctors 
had told us it was, — a purgative medicine to keep the body func- 
tioning in an orderly way and to act simply as any ordinary 
medicine. There was absolutely no trace of food. The analysis 
was given. There was only one thing in the analysis that seemed 
to puzzle the analyst. That was that he detected the traces of 


alcohol, as if there had been perfume in the bottle. That was 
exactly what it was. It was a small eau-de-cologne bottle in which 
we took the sample of medicine from the prison. This is the first 
time that this is given to anybody, even to our own intimate friends. 
Only my brother knew of it, and my sister and myself. For a 
long time even my sister-in-law did not know about it, because 
we wanted to keep it very secret. Now, you will ask, if it was so 
secret as all that, what use was it to us? As it was, we could not 
let it be known that we had analyzed the medicine, or we would 
have been all turned out of the prison. So having satisfied our- 
selves that they were not playing any tricks, we set about satis- 
fying the public. We got the most eminent doctor that we could. 
We asked permission from the Home Office to have a physician of 
our own go in and see my brother. And we got that specialist to 
go in and see him. We did not tell him anything about that 
analysis, needless to say. We told him to examine the medicine, 
that we wanted to be satisfied that the doctors were not putting 
proteids in the medicine they were giving my brother. We asked 
that doctor to go there for another reason. There was a rumor 
that my brother, being on the point of death, was to be moved to 
a nursing home; that the authorities were afraid to have him die 
in the prison, and wanted him to be moved outside. We wanted 
independent medical testimony that he was not able to be moved. 
They gave us that permission. I think their idea was that they 
wanted to represent to the outside world that they wished to be 
as nice as they possibly could to us and they did not want to refuse 
us anything that they could possibly grant. Our purpose in hav- 
ing the doctor was to make a public statement that my brother 
was not getting any food in his medicine. We knew from the 
analysis, but we wanted a specialist to make the statement. The 
doctor making the examination was very nervous indeed when he 
went in, but on coming out the first thing that he said to all of us 
was, "The Lord Mayor does not want to die. He has no intention 
of committing suicide." Of course we knew he did not want to 
die. What he wanted was freedom. The doctor came away from 
his interview with my brother evidently with a very high opinion 
of his character and principles. And I told him straight out that 
we wanted the assurance that the doctors were not feeding him 
secretly, and he gave us that assurance and said we might trust the 
doctors because they were all honorable men. And, of course, we 
had attained our object as far as the newspapers were concerned; 
and from that day on there was not a hint in any of the English 
papers that the doctors were feeding him secretly. 



That disposed of that, but they next said that his relatives were 
feeding him secretly. Of course, they could not say openly that 
we were doing so. They said — of course, even the doctors said, 
'"The food is always there, and he can eat at any time." And the 
curious thing was that they changed the food to meet his condi- 
tion. At first there was chicken and eggs and the like. And as 
he got weaker afterwards they brought him chicken broth, meat 
essence, milk with brandy, and the things he would naturally get 
if he would take food. And we were invited to give them to him. 
Then began the insinuations in the papers that we were giving him 
food secretly. We never gave him food, but we were giving him 
water whenever he asked for it. Sometimes he would say, "Give 
me some water," and we would go and get him some water, even 
when the nurse was in the room. But from the day that this 
propaganda began that we were feeding him secretly, we would 
not give him the water; we would let the nurse get him the water. 
We had to watch like lynxes from beginning to end. Every step 
held a trap for us. And all that was to counteract the deed 
that was creating so much sympathy for Ireland all over the world. 



And then there were the constant appeals not to let such a 
good man die, that his life would be so much better for Ireland 
than his death. Some . of these appeals pretended to be from 
friends of Ireland who told us what a great mistake we were 
making in letting him starve to death; others were from people who 
abused us shamefully for letting him die. Such was their propa- 
ganda, — which I know you will not ask me to elaborate. My 
brother was told that it was hard for his wife and sisters to see 
him suffer, and for their sake would he not take a little food. And 
we were told that it was terrible to have such a noble man die, 
and would not we coax him to have a little food. One day, in 
answer to the pleas like that that the doctors made to him, he said, 
"Doctors, my wife and sisters are with me in this. They would not 
ask me to stop. They would think me a coward if I did." That 
was verily the one great consolation that he had, — that we were 
whole-heartedly with him in his fight. But the doctor came in the 
afternoon and suggested to us in another way : that my brother was 

— ~ 317 

anxious to discontinue, only he was afraid to do it, thinking that 
we would think him a coward and give him a hard time after- 
wards. I am telling that only to show you the insidious way that 
they went about trying to discredit us, and to give you another 
instance why I corrected that small slip this morning where a sub- 
marine was mentioned instead of a torpedo destroyer. Of course, 
my brother did not say that. He told us afterwards what he had 
said. And he told us over and over again how much we strength- 
ened and supported him because we were with him. And he often 
said to us individually that he knew that our part in the suffering 
was ever so much harder than his, because it is always harder to 
see one you love suffer than to suffer yourself. None of you have 
ever had to endure that sort of thing, — that incessant torture of 
appeal day after day. I suppose the doctors thought they were 
doing their duty. Most of these appeals were made to me and my 
sister, — chieflly to me. They had the grace to leave his wife alone. 
I think her youth and her grace appealed to them. Perhaps they 
thought we were not feeling it so much. But we got the brunt of 
it to bear, and it was not easy. 


Then there came with all that shoals and shoals of anonymous 
letters. I suppose we have had thousands of anonymous letters 
from all parts of the country abusing us. A great many of them 
came from America, but then they did not come from Americans, 
but from the English propagandists in America. But we, of 
course, cast all these aside. We did not read them. One day an 
anonymous correspondent sent us a phial of poison to give to him 
and "finish him off quickly, and not make so much fuss about 
it, if we wanted him dead." I'm telling you that particular inci- 
dent for this reason: religious friends had been sending him 
religious emblems from all parts of the world, and we had been 
getting roses and flowers and things like that in little parcels. 
And up to that time we had been taking them upstairs and open- 
ing them at his bedside. The day this came we had taken this 
little parcel up and opened it and glanced at it before we showed 
it to him, and my sister, who had it in her hand, tried to hide it 
away. But he noticed it and wanted to know what it was. It was 
impossible to hide it, so we showed it to him. And he laughed 
and said, "You surely do not think I would mind a thing like 
that.' 1 All that sort of thing went on. We did not read anony- 
mous letters, yet still they had their share in the things we had 
to endure while we were over there. 



Another thing I would like you to know about the English at- 
titude toward us is that we found out that they were counting very 
strongly on the effect my brother's death might have on the Irish 
Volunteers. They had tried in every way to provoke the Volun- 
teers until they would come out in the open so that they might 
crush them, but they had not succeeded in doing it. They had 
come to the conclusion that they could not defeat the Volun- 
teer organization in that way, but they still thought that if they 
could get hold of the leaders and get them killed in large num- 
bers, they would be able to conquer the rest of the country. They 
counted, I think, that my brother's death would create such an 
uproar in Cork that the Republican soldiers there would lose their 
heads, and their leaders would, too. You see, my brother was a 
very cool and very calm man. He was not one of the hot-headed, 
rash young people that the English Government talks about such 
a lot. And they thought that because he was so much loved and 
so calm, that his death would enrage the Volunteers and they would 
come out in the open, and the Volunteers could then he shot down 
lawfully, as it were. The rumors were brought to me from Ireland 
that the Volunteers were in a very great state of tension. And 
some people whose advice could not be set aside, some people who 
were not scaremongers, were very much concerned lest his death 
would cause just such an uprising in Cork as would give the Eng- 
lish their chance. And so, when the opportunity came, I said to 
my brother, "Do you think the Volunteers will be out of hand? 
Would you not like to send them a message?" His answer to me 
was, "Certainly not. The Volunteers are soldiers who are ef- 
fectively officered, and it would be an insult to both officers and 
men if I sent them such a message. They are a disciplined body, 
and they know their duty and they will do it." When the end was 
very close and the tension was very high, I sent a message to Cork 
myself, and this message was that I had heard these reports and 
had mentioned them to my brother and asked him if he would 
like to send a message; and I gave them his message just as I 
got it. I think it was the most effective message that could have 
been sent. 



While we were all perfectly satisfied that niv brother should 
carry his sacrifice to the end, and while we did not begrudge 
him to Ireland, we felt it our duty to do every single thing we 
could to save him, everything we could consistently do with his 
principles and with ours. We would not be guilty of any com- 
promise any more than he would. But short of a compromise, we 
felt bound to try to save his life and make the English release 
him. I went the day after my arrival in London to the Home 
Office. That was on Friday — the first day I arrived in London. 1 
went to the Home Office. I saw some of the under secretaries. They 
told me that the Government's decision was unalterable; that my 
brother's death would be on his own head; and that they would 
not release him on account of the hunger strike. I asked to see 
Mr. Shortt, and I was told that Mr. Shorlt was busy. I wrote to 
Mr. Shortt and told him that this was a very serious matter, and 
asked for an interview. He wrote back that no good purpose was 
to be served by an interview, since the government's decision was 
unalterable. Lloyd George was then in Lucerne or Geneva, Lucerne 
I think, and I asked him who was responsible in this matter. He 
sent back a message, which probably appeared in the American 
papers at the time, which was a deliberate insult to a woman to 
whom he was already causing as much suffering as was at all 
necessary. He said that he had received my appeal on behalf 
of my brother's life. (I made none.) He said that he regretted 
that my brother was causing such suffering to his family by his 
deliberate suicide. I call that a scoundrel's answer, a scoundrel's 
insult. I wired back and told him that his answer was an insult; 
that I made no appeal to him, but I wanted to know on whom to 
place the responsibility for my brother's death. He accepted that 
responsibility, and he is responsible before God and the world 
for that murder. For no law, English or any other law, justifies 
him in doing what he did. He was as responsible for my brother's 
death as he was when he was declared guilty by a coroner's jury 
of the City of Cork for the death of my brother's predecessor, Lord 
Mayor MacCurtain. The Irish people know where to put the re- 
sponsibility of my brother's death, and it is no use for Lloyd 
George to try to put it on the shoulders of any individual Black- 



I found, then, that the Home Office was quite determined to let 
him die, and I was quite convinced of that after my interview 
there. The English press was quite sympathetic. Even the anti- 
Irish press said it was a mistake to let my brother die. And the 
labor people were passing resolutions about the matter. I told my 
brother one day that the labor people were very sympathetic, and 
his answer was, "If English labor really wanted to get me out, they 
could do it in twenty-four hours if they liked." 

Then I went to interview the Council of Action. The Council 
of Action — I do not know whether you know of it or not — was a 
council of the labor people formed by the working classes to 
prevent Poland being supplied with arms to fight the Russians. 
They were very interested in the crisis between Russia and Poland, 
but the injustice that was being done at their own door did not 
affect them. I went to see them so that if they did not take ac- 
tion, they could not plead ignorance as an excuse. So I told them 
what was going on. They were very sympathetic, very, and there 
were some very honest men among them. But no man was suf- 
ficiently courageous to take action. They were very courageous 
about Russia, but the particular thing they were doing about 
Russia was not against the wishes of their own Government. 


There was a big labor congress held this summer at Ports- 
mouth. Some of our friends had come from different parts of 
England, and they said that the feeling was 'intense about letting 
my brother die. And they said that if the Labor Council called 
a strike, that strike would be effective. The whole Merthyr di- 
vision and the whole Newcastle division would go on strike and 
get my brother released. And they said that as the labor congress 
was meeting in Portsmouth, that I should go down there and try 
to get them to act. The labor congress represented six and one- 
half million people; and if the labor congress could be got to 
act, that even the government would be forced to release my 

I went down to Portsmouth and sent in my card to the chairman, 
Mr. Thomas, who is general secretary of the Railroad Union, I 
believe. Mr. Thomas is rather like Mr. Lloyd George, I am told, 


in character and action, and lie has acted and talked very much 
like Mr. George. He sent out word that the congress already had 
passed a resolution about my brother's case, and nothing more 
could be done. I sent back word that I was sorry, but I wanted 
my request to be put to the members of the congress, and I 
would take their answer. He sent out word that he could not do it. 
Meanwhile I got word that the standing orders committee of the 
Council of Action was meeting upstairs, and that the standing 
orders could only be interfered with if the standing orders com- 
mittee approved of it. So I went upstairs for an interview with 
the standing orders committee. They were all intensely sympa- 
thetic. Every man and woman I talked with was intensely sym- 
pathetic. But it was not their business. They were not respon- 
sible. That was their attitude. I asked the standing orders com- 
mittee to be allowed to speak to the congress for five minutes. 
They said it could not be done. I said that I understood that in 
any congress in a matter of sufficient importance the standing 
orders could be set aside for a particular case. I asked them if 
that was not so, and they said yes, but in this case it could not be 
done. I asked them if they would not let me make an appeal to 
the representatives of six and a half million people, and find 
out if they would let my brother die without doing anything to 
stop it. They were very reluctant to do it. They were equally 
reluctant to say no. And so they sent one of the lady members 
to talk to me and convince me that it would be unwise. I said, 
"Unwise for whom?" And she said unwise for me. And I said, 
"I am at the very end, and no action they could take would be un- 
wise for me." She said it would be a mistake. I wanted to get 
the mistake proved, and she could not prove it. What she really 
meant was that it would be a mistake for English labor people to 
press this matter. But I wanted deeds, not words. And then 
finally she said it could only be done by the parliamentary com- 
mittee. And I said, "Does the parliamentary committee meet to- 
day?" And she said yes, at five o'clock. And I said, "I can 
get a train back to London later than that." And I saw a great 
expression of relief on her face. And I asked her if the congress 
would meet after that time, and she said no. And I said, "I can- 
not wait that long." And I said, "Are the parliamentary commit- 
tee in the house now?" And she said yes. And I said, "I would 
like to see them now." She did not have the courage to say no. 
And so they sent down a deputation of the standing orders com- 
mittee to confer with the members of the parliamentary committee 
on the platform, including Mr. Thomas. They did not tell me 


beforehand that they were going to do that. If they had I would 
have known perfectly well the result. But they sent down the 
deputation before I was informed of it. And they came back 
after a time and said that they had gone down and they had pre- 
sented my request to the parliamentary committee that was on the 
platform, and the parliamentary committee had said that it was 
impossible to grant my request. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is it necessary to go into all these details? 

A. Not entirely, but perhaps I am tiring you? 

Senator Walsh: I think it is very important to know the steps 
you took to get your brother released, but the details of the move- 
ment I am afraid will tire you out to give in detail. 

The Witness: The only reason I was giving those details was 
this: because they were a very good example of the kind of hypo- 
critical sympathy that we met with, and the fact that, doing the 
meanest things they could do, that our enemies tried to do them 
as if they wanted to do everything they possibly could to please 
us. And I only ask your permission to say this: I found out by 
dint of questioning that my request was conveyed to the congress 
in this manner: Mr. Thomas got up and said that Miss Mac- 
Swiney, the Lord Mayor's sister, had asked to speak to them, and 
that he need not tell the congress what a harrowing time that lady 
had been through for the past month, and that although the lady 
would be quite willing to talk to them, that he was quite sure 
that they would not ask that poor harrowed lady to speak to them 
that day. And so out of 'sheer sympathy they were fooled into 
denying my request. And so I turned around and said, "I simply 
want a straight answer to a straight question. If I came here to 
speak, was it not because I wanted to come?" I only give you 
that so that you will understand. They will not openly deny 
what is fair and just, but they will try to escape giving a definite 
no. I gave that as an example of the evil propaganda that we 
had to fight for the whole two and a half months while we were 


And now I come to our own particular treatment. On the Mon- 
day before my brother's death, exactly a week before he died, there 
was a consultation of doctors, and when they came out they called 
me aside and they said that my brother had developed symptoms 
of scurvy, and that it was necessary for him to take lime juice, but 
he had refused, and when they had asked him he said that he only 
wanted to be left alone and to die in peace. And the doctor said 


(this was the special doctor who came to see him once a week), 
"I assure you, Miss MacSwiney, that your brother will not die in 
peace if he gets scurvy. He will die with the most terrible tortures. 
And you had better urge him to take lime juice now." And I told 
him that I was afraid I could not. And then he continued and tried 
to tell me what a terrible death dying by scurvy was. And I turned 
to him and said, "It would be a terrible thing to die with tortures. 
The matter is in God's hands, and we can only ask that He does not 
let him suffer too much." And he turned to me and said, "God 
has nothing to do with it. The case is in our hands — your hands 
and my hands. And we shall see that he will have to take lime 
juice." I said that I would not urge my brother to take lime juice, 
and that was all there was about it. 

There were a couple of friends from Cork who came to see him, 
and he teased them a little because he was always very fond of tea, 
and the first thing he always said was to ask people to have a cup 
of tea with him. And he said to them in Irish, "I am sorry I cannot 
offer you a cup of tea." And they said, "Well, never mind, we will 
have a cup of tea together yet." 

The next morning the doctor of the prison, Dr. Griffiths, said he 
was going to force him to take lime juice. My brother sent for the 
governor and said he objected to being forced to take anything in 
his weak state. All that day, Tuesday, my brother was very excited, 
because he did not have the energy to resist — not the energy of 
mind, but the energy of body. He was so weak he could not resist 
physically in case they tried to feed him forcibly. I think that he 
felt very sad that after seventy-four days, they could get the better 
of him and make him take something. That excited him, and on 
Wednesday morning he was very excited. Early in the morning, 
when the chaplain visited him, he was very excited. 


But for two or three days his power of concentration was going 
from him. If he wanted to say something, he would say, "You 
will have to wait a minute until I get my thoughts clear." On that 
morning when my sister visited him, he said that that hammering 
was the doctor coming with a new treatment. I will not go over 
the details of the next few days. I want to come to Friday morn- 
ing. During the period of delirium he recognized me three times. 
He recognized my other sister once. After Thursday morning he 
did not recognize either his wife or my brothers. I want you to 
think of that when his people were not allowed in the prison. On 


that Wednesday, the day of his first delirium, he turned to her and 
said, "Muriel, you have always stuck by me." And a little after- 
wards he turned to me and said, "Min (that was my pet name at 
home), you are always loyal to Ireland. Stay by me and see what 
they do to me." That showed how hard his mind was working 
and how he was trying to cling to his consciousness. 

He was wildly delirious all that day, and at night time he was 
very uneasy. I am not given to asking favors of the doctors, but I 
did beg them very hard that night to let me stay in the prison with 
my brother. I think it was through Dr. Higson — he was always 
very humane — that Father Dominick was also allowed to stay in 
the prison. 


Although I was not allowed on the landing, I took occasional 
peeps to see what was going on, and they fed him all through 
Wednesday night. They did not begin to feed him until Wednesday 
night, when he was quite unconscious. When he got quiet again 
he was conscious for a few minutes, and he saw me in the room 
and he beckoned me and said, "I am afraid they have tricked me. 
Have they?" And I said, "I am afraid they have." And he said, 
"What did they give me?" And I said, "Meat juice." And he 
said, "Wait a minute. We will have to keep cool now." And the 
nurse came over and said I was not to talk to him. And then he 
got very angry. In that delirium he got very angry a couple of 
times before he entirely lost consciousness. And he said, "Go away, 
nurse; I must speak to my sister." And the nurse said, "You must 
not speak to her." And he said, "Go away. Go away. Go away. 
Go away." Again and again he said it. And then he lapsed back 
into unconsciousness. And I said, "Nurse, please go away for a 
minute." And I said to him, "It is all right now." And he said, 
"Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait. Wait." He repeated 
"wait" about a half dozen times. He was clinging on to his con- 
sciousness as long as he could, and then he went off into delirium 
again. That was the result of the nurse's interference. 


I got permission to stay there all that night. The next thing 1 
want to call your attention to is that in Friday morning's papers 
appeared a remark by the Home Secretary. He had been questioned 


in the House of Commons by an honest man, Lieutenant-Commander 
Kenworthy, about forcibly feeding my brother in his weak state. 
And he answered that the Lord Mayor was not being forcibly fed, 
but that a cup was held to his lips and he was swallowing it volun- 
tarily. Now. you will see how thoughtless people could look at 
that, and I knew it was more propaganda. And that morning I 
tried to get hold of Dr. Higson — and if 1 got him before Dr. 
Griffiths was there, I usually succeeded in getting the truth out of 
him before he was coached. And I said to him, "You know very 
well that that action of swallowing is a reflex action; that it is not 
a voluntary action.*' And he said that my brother was quite un- 
conscious that he was swallowing, and that it was a reflex action. 
And I said, "Have I your permission to quote that in public?" And 
he said, "Yes." And I went away and immediately made it public. 
I sent it to the House of Commons and to Mr. Shortt, and asked 
Mr. Shortt to retract the lie he had stated the night before. I sent 
it over home, and I also gave it to the newspaper correspondents 
of the whole world, that statement of the doctor's with his name 
attached to it. The result was my expulsion from the prison. 1 
am quite sure that that was why I was forbidden to enter the prison 
after Friday. 

On Saturday morning, as it unfortunately happened, I was the 
first person on that day. We used to change about, taking turns. 
It was my turn to visit first that day. I arrived at the prison at 
half-past eight. My brother had been on duty all night, and I was 
to relieve him. I got to the prison gate — there are two gates; there 
is a large wooden gate, and then about ten feet inside of that there 
is a big iron gate. 

Q. Senator Norris: Now, Miss MacSwiney, so that there will not 
be any misapprehension about your testimony, you said that that 
was your first day there? 

A. No, it was my turn to pay the early morning visit that day. 
One of us would come on at eight-thirty, another at noon, and 
another at night, and so on. This morning it happened to be my 
turn to go on first, and I stepped up to the gate and started to go 
in. And the warder said, "What is your name, please?" It was 
quite extraordinary to be asked your name after you have been 
going there every day for over two months. And I said, "Mac- 
Swiney." And he said, "Your Christian name, please?" And 1 
said, "Miss Mary MacSwiney." And he said, "I cannot admit you." 
And I said, "On whose orders?" And he said, "On the governor's." 
And I said, "May I see the governor?" And he said, "The governor 
is not here." And he ordered me to step outside the prison gate. 


I would not go, and stepped into the waiting room there and stayed 
there. As the officials came in I questioned each one of them and 
asked them on whose orders I was kept from seeing my brother. 
And they said, "Home Office orders." And I asked them if it 
would apply to anybody but myself, and they said no, I was the 
only one. 

In that day's papers there was a statement that on the day before 
there was a moment when my brother had recognized my sister, 
and he had asked her what we were all here for and what we were 
doing in London. And she did not want to upset that moment of 
consciousness, and she simply said, "Nothing. You are all right." 
That appeared in the morning's papers, and the order to exclude 
her came at one o'clock that day. The order to exclude me came 
from my publishing Dr. Higson's statement that my brother was not 
voluntarily swallowing. And she was expelled because my brother 
recognized her. 

They all tried to get me out of the prison, but they did not suc- 
ceed. They did not use force. My sister-in-law came along then, 
and she could get through the gate, but was only allowed to see 
her husband for a few minutes, and then he was not conscious. 


We stayed there until half-past ten that night. I do not want to 
stress it, but I had had breakfast at half-past seven, and did not 
have any food until twelve that night. I would have gone on a 
hunger strike of my own and stayed in that waiting room if they 
had not used force to get us out. At ten o'clock the deputy governor 
came along and said, "Miss MacSwiney, it is time to lock up." 
And I said, "Very well, lock up." And he said, "I am afraid you 
must go out." And I said, "I will not go out until I see my 
brother." And he said, "You must, for it is time to lock up the 
prison." And I said, "It is strange to be locking up a place that 
is always locked up." And I said, "If you will let me see my 
brother for five minutes, I will go away, but not before." Then he 
said, "The local police have orders to put you out by force." I 
said, "Very well ; if the local police — enough of them — come in and 
use force to put two women out, they can do so. But I will not 
go voluntarily." 

I can only tell you this: they started in at ten o'clock, and it was 
five minutes to eleven before they got us out. The police inspector 
came and tried to get us out by "moral suasion," and I said there 
was no morality about anything they were doing. He argued with 


my sister and did no better. They finally technically arrested us. 
That is, in England if a policeman puts his hand on your shoulder 
and says you are under arrest, you are arrested. Then they led 
us out of the prison, and a taxi was waiting for us, and took us 
home. And then when I got home, about twelve o'clock, I got the 
first thing I had had to eat since early that morning. 


Sunday was just a repetition of Saturday for my sister and my- 
self, except that we were both compelled to stay outside the outer 
gate of the prison. On Saturday we were allowed to wait down in 
the little waiting room, and on Sunday we had to stand in the street. 
And if I have given you that in a lot of detail, it was not to draw 
your attention to our personal suffering. But if that had happened 
in Germany, if two women had been kept from their brother's death 
bed and made to stand on the street during the long, cold day, you 
would have heard a great deal about it as a German atrocity. I 
mention it simply because it was a British atrocity. I do not want 
to draw attention to our personality in any way. Sunday was 
simply a repetition of Saturday. And on Monday my brother died. 


I simply want to say something about the inquest that my sister- 
in-law did not mention this morning, and that is this: that they did 
everything — every single thing they could — to bring in a verdict of 
suicide. I do not know anything about the law about it, but I heard 
it quite late on Tuesday evening that if my brother was found to 
be a suicide, they could hold his body. I have mentioned earlier 
that we had summoned this specialist, Sir Norman Moore, whom 
we called to see my brother and to examine his medicine. We did 
not summon him to the inquest, because we did not think it neces- 
sary, and you must give twenty-four hours' notice to summon wit- 
nesses. On Tuesday evening, when we heard that they were trying 
to bring in a verdict of suicide, we immediately called up Dr. 
Norman Moore and told him the circumstances and asked him to 
come and tell the jury that the one thing my brother did not want 
to do was to die. I talked with him myself over the telephone, and 
he did not want to come. The jury was asked to bring in a verdict 
of suicide, and they did not do it. They brought in an open verdict. 



Our solicitor asked them for the body, and the crown solicitor 
jumped up and said, "Where is he to be buried?" And our solicitor 
said, "In Cork, of course." And they said, "You cannot have the 
body to be buried any place outside of England without a permit." 
My sister-in-law has told you how we finally got permission from 
the Home Office to take the body. 

Q. Senator Walsh: I would like to ask if there is anything else 
between that and the Holyhead incident? 

A. No, there is nothing. 

At Crewe we were told that when we got to Holyhead we were 
to go on a boat and go straight to Cork. My brother was sent for 
by the police inspector. I do not know that you are aware that a 
large body of police traveled on the train from Euston to Holyhead. 
They tried to play a trick on us, and tried to send the train off 
without the friends knowing it. And then my sister and myself 
went into the van where my brother's remains were, and said we 
would not go away. Then they started the train and sent us away 
to get us outside of London. We were then informed by the police 
that the remains were to be put on the steamship Rathmore and 
taken to Dublin, and that not more than twenty of my brother's 
friends were to be allowed to travel with my brother's remains. A 
consultation was held with my sister, and we decided unanimously 
that we would not one of us go on that ship. If they took my 
brother's remains away from us by force, and then we went on the 
ship, it would be a tacit consent to their action. Some people have 
seemed to think that we were very hard-hearted to let my brother's 
remains travel like that without any of his friends. We did what 
we knew he would have liked us to do — what would be for Ireland's 
good first. 

When Holyhead was reached we went and stood by the van where 
my brother's remains were. My younger brother went and inter- 
viewed the station master, and we were told finally that the body 
was to be taken by force, and they came into the van to take it. 
I asked the station master if he was not going to fulfil the contract 
for which he was paid — the contract to deliver my brother's re- 
mains in Dublin. He said no; that he had government orders, and 
they must be obeyed. And I said that no man had a right to obey 
an order like that. Then we were asked to go outside, and we 
refused. And we decided that this time technical arrest, like the 
laying of an officer's hand on your shoulder, was not sufficient, and 


that this time we ought to resent by bodily resistance the second 
arrest of the body of a dead man. I might add that when we got 
on the platform at Holyhead there were about one hundred fifty 
Black-and-Tans there, and their faces as they sneered and jeered 
through the window at my brother's body was the most evil thing 
I believe I have ever seen. 

Finally all the friends gathered around the coffin, and they refused 
to move. I would rather be spared the details of what followed. 
There were some men first: I can only say that I was the first 
woman to be picked up like a bale of goods and thrown out — 
thrown out literally — onto the platform. My brother jumped to 
try to save me, and he was nearly choked by four policemen. And 
a military officer jumped over a wagon — a small cart — and took 
him by the back of the neck and tried to choke him. He had his 
arms around me, and I threw my arms around him to try to save 
him from being choked to death. The incident was a very painful 
one. And I thought every instant that my younger brother would 
drop dead before my eyes, because the treatment he received by the 
Canadian authorities in a Canadian prison during the war has 
injured his heart; and a doctor in America has told him that any 
excitement is apt to cause him to drop dead. And I was afraid he 
was going to drop dead that night. 

Q." Mr. F. P. Walsh: What time of day was that? 

A. Eleven o'clock at night; between eleven and twelve. 

Q. What was done then after that? 

A. They took the body, and increased the number that could 
travel w T ith it from twenty to seventy-five; and when we refused to 
go, the police inspector asked Mr. O'Brien to point out to the rela- 
tives the sacredness of the remains and what respect was due them. 
As if we needed to be pointed out the sacredness of his body! 

The body was taken by the Rathmore to Dublin. We proceeded 
to Dublin, where the funeral was carried out, and then we went on 
to Cork by special train. In the evening I got a letter that my 
brother's body was at the customs house and we might have it. It 
was quarter past nine when I got that word. They tried to get every- 
body in the city to take that body before they communicated with 
us. I am glad to say that the citizens of Cork did exactly what we 
would have had them do, and refused to touch his remains because 
they had no authority. 

Q. Mr. Frank P. Walsh: And his remains were interred where? 
A. In what is called the Martyrs' Plot. 
Q. And that plot is where? 


A. It is devoted to those who have been the victims of the recent 
outrages in Cork. Lord Mayor MacCurtain was the first to be 
buried there. The fallen members of the Irish Republican Army 
are also there, and the other deceased hunger strikers have been 
buried there since. It is fast filling up; and at the rate that Eng- 
land is killing people there, it seems that they would like it to take 
in the whole country. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: There are a couple of matters the Commission 
would like to ask you about. 


Q. Chairman Howe: Could you tell us something more, Miss 
MacSwiney, about the extent to which the present Republican courts 
in Ireland are functioning? 

A. Yes. I would like to refer first to what I said yesterday — 
that the courts, the English courts, were sitting in state behind 
barbed wire and sand bags. That was true until a couple of months 
ago, when they brought in the Coercion Act, so that these judges 
do not sit any longer, because they have military courts now. 


Another point that I would like to emphasize is that the English 
say that we Irish will never be fit for self-government. But there 
is one instance I would like to tell that I am sure a good many here 
have never heard of. It happened while we were at Brixton. It 
was related in all of the papers, and in some it was called a judg- 
ment of Solomon. There were two brothers who for many years 
had been fighting about the division of the large farm where they 
lived. One brother was married, and he wanted a settlement. They 
had been into English courts three or four times, and they wanted 
a decision. The fight between the brothers was getting to be very 
bitter. The case was finally taken into a Sinn Fein court, and the 
decision was very interesting. It was this: the elder brother was to 
make the division of the farm as he considered it fair, and the 
younger brother was to take his choice of the halves. I do not 
think that since the time of Solomon you have had a more fair 
judgment than that. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: May I ask if you would attribute that 
to the Irish character or to the absence of lawyers from the courts? 

A. Perhaps to both, Mr. Thomas. 



Another matter to which I would like to refer was the shooting of 
the fourteen military officers in Dublin. Of course I was not there 
and do not know ail of the details of the case. And yet I would 
know from my own confidence in the Irish Government that that 
was just. And I can tell you that those fourteen officers who were 
shot were fourteen absolutely expert men who were sent over to 
get the whole threads of our organization into their hands; that 
they had captured vital documents of ours which they were about 
to use; and death was absolutely necessary by the laws of the 
Republic. They had been infringing on our rights. They were 
military officers doing secret service work for their government. 
That I know. And I know perfectly well that they were not shot 
without good reason, and that they were a very great danger to our 
men. whose lives we value. Also, a very good point is made of the 
fact that one man was shot in the presence of his wife. But many of 
our men have been shot in the presence of their wives; and in the 
case of the British government it is not necessary, because they 
could get our men at any time. I know that it is not a nice thing 
to happen, but in this case it was unavoidable. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What is the nature of the notice that is given 
by the Irish Republic to British officers who are going to be killed? 

A. I do not know that definitely, but it has been publicly stated 
that certain things are forbidden by the Irish Government; that 
they are crimes, and that any man who does those things will be 
shot. In addition, I think there is a notice sent to every man who 
is going to be shot, and he is warned. Some of them are captured 
and tried before a court in person before they are condemned to be 

Q. But if the British officer is known to commit an act of treason 
to the Irish Government, is there some communication sent to him 
warning him that if he does not leave the country he will be shot? 

A: I understand that there is. I have no personal knowledge 
of that. 

Q. But you understand that a warning is given to cease some 
kind of activity that is considered harmful by the Irish Government, 
and that if they do not do so they will be killed? 

A. Yes, I understand that. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: There are two points that I under- 
stand you to make: first, that your general confidence in the Irish 
Republic is such that the shooting, you think, is justified according 


to the code of war. Do I also understand you to say that these 
fourteen men were military spies? 

A. I do not know personally that these fourteen men were mili- 
tary intelligence men, but I am quite sure if they were not they 
would not have been shot. 

Q. I understood these fourteen men were connected with courts- 
martial ; but you claim now they were connected with the military 
intelligence service? 

A. Yes, but you must understand that I was in the midst of the 
affairs of my brother's death, and since then I have been so occupied 
with his papers that I have not given great attention to the matter. 
But I heard that this was the case; that they were secret service men. 

Q. Do you think that you and Mr. Frank Walsh could gather 
further evidence on that point? 

A. Yes, I think I could gather it. 

Mr. Frank P. Walsh: I will undertake to get it. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: You think these men were spies? 

A. Yes, that was my understanding. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: As I understand it, there is a distinction 
between men living in barracks who have a definite military duty 
to perform, and those who come into the country as spies to trace 
down men, and who often go about in civilian clothes to conceal 
their identity. 

A. Yes, that is it. 

Q. But you understood that these fourteen men were not con- 
nected with open military leaders, but had come to Ireland to spy 
there and seek the lives of your men? 

A. Yes, that is it. 


Q. I believe you told me, Miss MacSwiney, that as you had told 
something of the educational system that had existed heretofore, 
that you would like briefly to state what is being done now by your 
nation for the education of your children. 

A. Yes. 

Q. Senator Walsh: And I would like in that connection for you 
to state what you have observed since this movement began in the 
way of giving stamina and strength and character to the future of 
your country — what effect this movement has had upon the character 
of the people. 

A. Yes, I would like to speak of that, but I shall not dwell at 


great length upon it. Yesterday I explained to you the method of 
education of what I reluctantly called the "better class" of the 
country — that it anglicized them; it made them think that everything 
English was good and that everything Irish was something to be 
ashamed of. Thus people sometimes claimed to be Irish, but they 
were proud to be known as West Britons. Once when I spoke of 
the Irish element, one of these persons said to me, "Yes, that is 
the rowdy element." 

Q. Chairman Howe: Have you any connection with the new 
school system in Ireland? 

A. Well, I was the founder of a school for girls. I founded 
it in connection with my dismissal in 1916. When I found the 
secondary schools of the country were so anglicized that one could 
not teach in them and be Irish, I took things into my own hands 
and opened up a school in our home, and it has grown very rapidly. 

Q. How many pupils have you now? 

A. About one hundred. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Is there another school of that same kind 
in Dublin? 

A. Yes, founded afterwards by Miss Gavan Duffy in Dublin. 
It has been very successful, too. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Does your Republic make provision for 

A. Not financially yet, but there is a minister of education that 
will take charge later on. But these two schools had this advantage: 
that we who started them had the confidence of our fellow citizens; 
that we were able to teach, in the first place, and that we were also 
able to give, from the standpoint of general culture and refinement, 
anything that the pro-British schools could give. That is the spirit 
of the school : we give the best that any school around us could 
give of the culture and refinement of the world generally. We do 
not confine ourselves to our own country, but our own country is 
the center from which everything starts — the same as in American 
schools America is the center from which things start. You learn 
your own history first. France learns her own history first. And 
I know that England does. 

We were the first girls' school in Ireland — of course, Padraic 
Pearse did it at his school — but we were the first in Ireland to 
start in with Irish culture. We taught them, when they said they 
were proud of being Irish, we taught them what that meant. We 
taught Irish history from the Irish point of view; and when the 
books did not agree with that — because I have told you that the 
books were written in England for Ireland — then the books had to 


go to the wall, and the truth was told. But the people who sent 
their children to our schools were not all Irish Republicans. One 
man was reproved for sending his children to us, and he said, "I 
will take my political orders from my party, but I will not take 
orders from it as to where to send my children to school." We 
have done what we could in Cork to destroy anglicization, and so 
has St. Brigid's school in Dublin. 

This year we had no government grant to speak of, and we were 
afraid we would have to close down for lack of funds; and a com- 
mittee of Irish friends in both Cork and Dublin decided that it 
would be a national calamity to close our schools, so they got 
together a committee and asked people to take shares to finance 
both schools until An Dail x was prepared to take over control. 
And the result was that the committee took over the financing of 
the school and left the management of the school to us. 


Q. Commissioner Addams: As an educator who has to teach 
history to children, you would regret very much, would you not, 
that these British officers had a secret trial and were condemned 
to death in their absence? 

A. Yes, I certainly would say that it is regrettable that such 
things have to be done. I dare say that in your Revolutionary War 
you had to do a great many things that you regret having had to do. 
And I dare say in teaching your children their history, you touch 
as lightly as possible on the things you had to do. 

Q. The children are very much educated by current events, by 
what is happening at the moment. Do you do anything to counter- 
act what is being done all around them? 

A. With regard to those things, the children we have at school 
come from all sorts of parents; and we have decided for the present 
that we will not teach them directly the Irish Republican point of 
view any more than any other point of view. But they get it in- 
sensibly. The atmosphere of the school is Irish. It is the first girls' 
school of the better class where the atmosphere is Irish. 


I would like to stress another point. Up to the time the Volun- 
teer movement started, there was an atmosphere of — I do not like 

An Dail — the national parliament. 


to call it slavery — but a very unpleasant atmosphere in Ireland. 
People were ashamed to hold up their heads. There was a time 
when people went about with what you would call a hang-dog 
expression. But now the young men and women go about holding 
up their heads, knowing perfectly well that they are acting in a way 
that future generations will be proud of them. There is not a man 
or woman today who is not interested in the Irish Republic — who 
is not proud to be Irish. 

And you must remember that we have in Ireland today a Repub- 
lican army that is both large and victorious. And if England 
succeeds in shooting down the men, the women will take their 
places. And if she shoots down the women, the children will take 
their places. And if they shoot down the children, the blades of 
grass will spring up into armed men and take their places. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: That is all very easy to understand. 
But how do you teach the children about affairs where men are shot 
down in their hotel rooms and in their homes, and things like that? 

A. Yes, we have been asked questions like that in school. We 
were asked one day in school in a religious lesson what the ethics 
of shooting policemen were. And the answer I gave the child was 
this: We are at war at present. During the period that we are 
passing through, many things have to be done that we may think 
are regrettable; that those things have to be done by the Council 
that is directing our affairs; and until we can get a knowledge of 
the facts on which our Supreme Council's actions are based, that 
we cannot judge; and that therefore we must suspend judgment for 
the time. But that if we find our government guilty of cruelty, we 
must blame our government as well as any other government. But 
until we have all the facts, we should not pass judgment. This 
was the answer I gave to a class of senior girls. But I may say 
to you that I think we are born politicians in Ireland; and we do 
not have to explain things to the children. As soon as they are 
out of the cradle they know about as much about these things as 
we do. 

Now, Mr. Walsh, I think that is about all. 


Q. Commissioner Maurer: I would like to ask you about the 

arrangements for financing your government. Have you a plan of 
finance at work? 

A. The government floated a loan in Ireland some time ago, 


and they asked for a quarter of a million, and that quarter of a 
million was oversubscribed. The people are incredibly generous. 
When money is needed, it will come. 


There are one or two things I would like to say while we are 
closing up at the end of these two days, and they are this (I would 
ask the Chairman's permission to stand in telling them) : I want, 
in leaving you, to ask you to keep in mind one or two points. The 
long story I have been telling you is to show you how all the time 
English propaganda is being used to discredit us before all the 
world and among the nations. And I want you, whenever you are 
told anything about Ireland from any English source, to remember 
what I have told you today, and to say, "We will not judge until 
we have heard the other side." You have been told lies and lies 
and lies about us. And one of the manufactured lies I want to 
scotch is that you are told day after day that this co-called Sepa- 
ratist Movement in Ireland is only the work of the extremist section, 
which the English people call the "murder gang"; and that the 
majority of the Irish people, who are not Sinn Feiners, are moderate 
people who are sighing for peace. There is no such division in 
Ireland at all. And please stress that. And I ask the newspaper 
men to state that fairly before the American public. I want to 
speak to the American people. I know the Irish in America are 
with us, and to talk to them is like taking coals to Newcastle. I 
don't want — I was most uncomplimentary to some of my Irish- 
American sympathizers this morning, and I told them I didn't want 
to talk to them. I want to talk to the people who call themselves 
"one hundred per cent. Americans" — although I should think I 
would have to go to the Cherokee Indians to do that! But I want 
to talk to the Americans who are anti-Irish. And I want to ask 
them, in the name of humanity, in the name of civilization and of 
the freedom they said they fought for, to be fair to us. We are not 
a divided people. We are one. There is a little corner in Ireland 
of English settlers, but they are Irish now, although they have kept 
some of the English characteristics up in the north of Ireland. 
That is one of our domestic problems. But we Irish are not a 
problem of England: we are an international problem, and the 
world will have to recognize it. And there will be no peace for 
England and there will be no peace for the world until it is settled. 
And I know that you American people have recognized that, and 
that this American Commission has done its best to try and settle 
that problem in the interests of world peace. 



I would ask vou, when you are told lies about the extremist section 
that will accept no reconciliation, and the moderate Sinn Fein ele-' 
ment, to remember that I have told you that there is no such thing; 
that the whole movement in Ireland today is one and indivisible; 
that we are out for an Irish republic; that we are out for complete 
separation from our oppressor; that there is no government in 
Ireland today supported by the people except the government with 
the ideals President de Valera stands for and the ideals Arthur 
Griffith stands for, and the rest of those men, and the weakest woman 
and child among us. We want our Republic, and we will have it 
with or without the help of the world. For when men and women 
and children are willing to die for a cause, that cause must triumph 
in the end. And all we ask from the American people is this, that 
they should give us justice and fair play; that Americans should 
not listen to England when she says that a small body of extremists 
is the cause of all this trouble. That is not true. I would like to 
have you remember what I have said today: that the cause of 
Ireland is an Irish Republic, and that men, women, and children 
are united on that point. 


The second point I wish to leave with you is, as I stated yesterday, 
that Mr. Arthur Griffith said that today is the Valley Forge of Ire- 
land, and tomorrow will be our Yorktown — our day of victory. 
I do not need to tell you what a bad time you had at Valley Forge. 
But there is this difference: then it was your men who were suffer- 
ing; but n,ow it is our women and children. It is bad enough for 
the women, but in any case it is very hard to see the children suffer. 

You must also remember that by constant and unremitting hard- 
ship, hunger, and cold you can break the spirit of any people, if 
you keep it up long enough. And that is what England is trying 
to do today — what she tried to do four hundred years ago under 
Mountjoy and Carewe she is trying to do today under the Black- 
and-Tans — to break down the people by destroying the sources 
from which the people get their food, and thus starve them into 



I do not like to ask favors for anything they need. But I would 
like to remind you that the first ship that reached America bearing 
food in your dire extremity came from Ireland. And I should like 
to ask Americans to take care that during the coming winter, which 
is apt to be very hard in Ireland — to see to it that the women and 
children do not suffer. The men can suffer. And the women can 
suffer. But it is hard to see the children suffer. And we do not 
want our people to be so oppressed by hunger and cold that their 
spirit can be broken and they can be forced to surrender. 

And remember that there is no religious difference in Ireland 
dividing the people, and never will be. There is no division in our 

I ask you, when you hear England's lies about us, not to believe 
her until you have heard our side of it. Let us tell you the truth. 
I have told you the truth and nothing but the truth, and all that I 
have said can be verified from papers and state documents. I have 
not told the whole of the truth, because it would take many weeks 
to tell you all that we have had to suffer. But I ask you to send us 
relief now, and I ask the Americans, the anti-Irish American citi- 
zens, not to believe all the lies England tells about us until they 
hear our side of the question. 




Q. Senator Walsh: Miss MacSwiney, may I ask you a question 
or two? 

A. Certainly. 

Q. Miss MacSwiney, do you know of any specific case of suffer- 
ing in Ireland, and of denial of food or destruction of crops by 
English authorities? 

A. Oh, well, in every town they have devastated they have de- 
stroyed food, and the crops on the farms all around the county of 
Cork. And they have, as I think you have heard this morning, 
they have destroyed the town of Tralee. 

Q. We want to be accurate. Just what do you know about that? 

A. At Tralee there was someone shot, and the police were boy- 
cotted — the police were not spoken to. Decent people no longer 


speak to them any more, anyway. And the Black-and-Tans closed 
all the shops. 

Q. All the shops? 

A. Yes, the bakeries and the milk shops, so that milk could not 
be got for the little babies. The shops were not allowed to be 
opened, and the Black-and-Tans stood there and refused point blank 
to allow the women and children to get the food that was waiting 
for them. They eventually found they were carrying it too far, 
and on the fourth day they allowed certain women to buy milk and 
bread — and nothing else. And I know this: that the excuse they 
gave was a shortage of food in the town, and that what was there 
was necessary for them, and they came and got the food, and the 
women and children had to do without it. That was their excuse — 
that they needed the food and the rebels had to do without. 

Q. Senator Norris: How do they destroy the crops? 

A. They burn them. They burn the hay and the corn, and they 
set fire to everything that is growing. They set fire to the cream- 
eries, and of course the creameries arc a tremendous loss through- 
out the country. Hundreds and thousands of men have been thrown 
out of employment by the burning of the creameries. And now 
those men have no employment. 

Q. Can you give us any idea of the total number of creameries 
that were burned? 

A. I do not know the total number, but in the week before I left 
Ireland there were nine creameries and one hundred one farms 

Q. How many all told all over Ireland? 

Chairman Howe: It was reported last week that thirty creameries 
had been burned. 

The Witness: Thirty creameries. That would be most of the 
large creameries in the country. You can get the exact number. 
The Irish authorities issue the figures every week, and you can get 
them there, I am sure. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: We have them. We can give them to you. 

Q. Senator Walsh : So the destruction of homes and the burning 
of farms and creameries and mills has caused a condition of unem- 
ployment and a shortage of food that has reached a critical state? 


A. Yes, absolutely. Another thing that I would like to stress is 
this: that when the railroads began to be stopped, we made pro- 
visions for the transportation of food into the cities so that there 


would be no shortage, for with the exception of flour, we have 
plenty of food in the country. We had arranged for the transpor- 
tation of food by motor car. And they made a new law that no 
motor car could travel more than twenty miles from the home of 
its owner, and no motor car could be out other than between the 
hours of eight o'clock and six in the evening, and no motor car 
over a certain weight could be owned by anybody except the British 
Government. Of course the British Government would not say, 
"We will make laws to prevent your rationing food, so that you will 
starve in the cities." But they prevented it by this law. Of course, 
anybody can see that you cannot bring food from within twenty 
miles of a great city. All these things are done to keep up starva- 
tion. And we do need America's help to keep off starvation from 
our people. And I think, on the mere ground of humanity, that 
surely in the interests of humanity you should take care that no 
people like ours should be allowed to starve during the coming 
winter. And certainly our people will be starved, absolutely 
starved during the coming winter, without your help. 


I want to say again, that when I said yesterday that you should 
not have sheathed your sword until all of the small nations, includ- 
ing Ireland, had their independence, do not think that from any- 
thing I said I mean that you should go to war on account of Ireland. 
England is your ally. She would be your natural ally if she would 
behave with justice. But what I ask of you is this: you have your 
Red Cross work; you have your charitable hearts; you have money 
enough, even among the anti-Irish population in this country; and 
I ask you to keep our women and children from starving to death. 
We know perfectly well that you will not go to war over Ireland, 
unless there is some other issue between you and England. 

I thank you for the patience with which you have listened to me 
for the past two days — for a day and a half — as you have done; 
and I thank the American Commission for what you have done for 
Ireland in the interests of humanity and in the interests of truth. 
I thank you very much. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: There are four or five witnesses who have come 
in now on this late train. And I was going to suggest that if you 


would want to adjourn now. that we could finish up their testimony 

I The Commissioners confer. ) 

Chairman Howe: The hearings will reconvene at this place to- 
morrow morning at nine-thirty. 

Senator Walsh: Are you able to produce any evidence as to who 
the murderers of Lord Mayor MacCurtain were, the circumstances 
of his murder, and in what way. if at all, the British authorities 
were connected with that murder? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I think I see what you want. I think it is im- 
portant enough to do it in a direct way. And we will undertake 
to do it. 


At this hearing I want to say this: We are in communication with 
vour secretary and chairman, and they said they wanted to hear 
Mrs. MacSwiney and Miss MacSwiney first; and we notified your 
secretary that we thought that some of these ex-R. I. C. men ar<> 
here in this country and could be produced before you. From what 
your chairman said, I take it that you do not want anything long 
and detailed; so we have sought to find only witnesses who have 
actual personal experiences to tell. And we will have these wit- 
nesses from time to time, and after consultation with you we can 
present them. 

Commissioner Thomas: While Mr. Frank Walsh is here, I would 
like to raise a point for his advice on the matter. We have got some 
very remarkable testimony from Mrs. and Miss MacSwiney. Would 
it be in any degree unfair to further witnesses to ask that they 
confine themselves to those matters of which they have fairly first- 
hand knowledge of the facts? I say fairly first-hand, because I 
know the impossibility of making that absolute. You see, we have 
got a very vivid picture now of the situation as a whole, but what 
we need are specific instances of actual deeds. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I understand that from this Committee's first 
hearings, that they would not carry on these hearings according to 
strict rules of evidence, as that would be followed in court; that 
they wished, first, to have first-hand testimony; and, secondly, testi- 
mony from persons who were so close to events that they would 
have similar to first-hand testimony, and put the Commission on the 
track of what actually occurred. Of course, the idea was to avoid 


hearsay testimony; and the witnesses we are going to put on will, 
I think, reach that result very easily. 

Senator Norris: Will your witnesses tomorrow know about the 
murder of Lord Mayor MacCurtain ? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I think that I can find such witnesses. 

Senator Walsh: Perhaps Miss MacSwiney could do that, or Mrs. 
MacSwiney, because her husband followed him. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: This afternoon I was asked to limit her testi- 
mony to certain things. 

Senator Norris: But if she was present at the coroner's inquest, 
she can testify with first-hand knowledge. 

Adjournment 4:45 p. m. 



Session Three 

Before the Commission, sitting at the Hotel La Fayette, Friday, 
December 10, 1920, 9:50 a. m. 

Chairman Howe: At the suggestion of Senator Norris, we have 
asked Miss MacSwiney to come back this morning to make a state- 
ment relative to the Mayor MacCurtain matter. Miss MacSwiney 
was at the inquest, we understand. 

Mr. Malone, some of the Commission have to leave this afternoon 
at three o'clock, and if you will, arrange your witnesses so that we 
can get through today. 

Mr. D. F. Malone (of counsel): Will the Commission sit to- 
morrow, Mr. Howe? 

Chairman Howe : We very much Avant to get through today if 


Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: How long have you known Mayor Mac- 

A. I have known him intimately from the beginning of the 
Volunteer Movement. 

Q. Did you know him in a personal as well as a political way? 

A. Yes. Very much more politically at first, but I was after- 
wards very closely associated with his family. 

Q. How old was he when he died? 

A. I think he was thirty-six. 

Q. And he was a friend of your brother's? 

A. Yes, very. They were very intimate friends and very devoted 
to each other. My brother had a very great admiration for him. 
and I know that he had a great admiration for my brother, 




Q. What was the position of Mayor MacCurtain in the Repub- 
lican forces? 

A. He was brigade commandant; that is what would correspond 
to a brigadier general. 

Q. And your brother was next in command? 

A. Right. My brother became chief commandant when Mayor 
MacCurtain was murdered, as he also succeeded him as Lord Mayor 
of the city. 


Q. I think it will facilitate matters before the Commission very 
much if you will describe the conditions leading up to this murder, 
and the situation of his family, and state briefly the testimony you 
heard given at the inquest. 

A. As I said. Lord Mayor MacCurtain was a man of about 
thirty-six at the time of his death. He had a wife and five children 
at the time. The eldest was ten years of age when he was murdered. 
I may say that five months after his death, his wife gave birth to 
two other children, twins, who were dead when they were born. 




He was a man of very sweet disposition, always a pleasant laugh 
and kind word, even to those with whom he differed most politi- 
cally. He was also a very good, shrewd business man. He did his 
best to smooth over matters in Cork when Mr. Redmond, as 1 
explained the other day, caused a sort of split in the Volunteer 
movement. He, of course, remained on the right side, and he did 
a great deal to avoid any bitterness. He was a particular friend 
of my brother for years. They had been associated in the Gaelic- 
League movement and in the industrial movement. But whereas 
my brother never joined the Sinn Fein group, as I explained the 
first day of my evidence, Mr. MacCurtain did. He joined the 
Arthur Griffith movement. But of course there is no such thing 
now as the constitutional Sinn Fein. But when in 1905 the move- 
ment was first started, it was a constitutional movement, and Mr. 
MacCurtain did belong to it. I did. not know him then. But my 
brother neY<?r belonged to it. 


In the troubled times in Ireland, from 1916 onward, they were 
very closely associated. All through that week of the rising they 
were together at what we called the Volunteer Hall, the headquar- 
ters of "the Irish Volunteer Army in the city. They were through 
all of the troubles up to that time together, and they both received 
a certain amount of condemnation from a certain section of the 
people who thought that they should have had a rising in the city, 
even though every individual man was shot down. Of course their 
attitude was that the thing that was best for Ireland was the thing 
to be thought of. and not the individual glory of losing your life, 
which is a comparatively easy thing to do. 

Then Mayor MacCurtain, like my brother, had spent most of his 
time in prison. He was not in prison so much or so long; but in 
1916 he was in prison with him until Christmas; and in 1917 he 
was deported, and they returnee! home to Cork at the same time. 
I do not think he was arrested in October, 1917, the time of my 
brother's first hunger strike. I am not quite certain, but I do not 
think so. But he was arrested in 1917, in February, and they were 
in and out of prison like that. It is a sort of natural thing to be 
spending half of your time in prison. And he was continually on 
the run. Mr. MacCurtain had a flour and mill business. He dealt 
on the wholesale scale. And that business was injured by his fre- 
quent imprisonments. But when he came out of prison in 1918 he 
started his factory. Of course they were always interested in the 
development everywhere of Irish industries. And he started an 
industrv and got some machines together, and employed a number 
of people for the manufacture of underclothing. That was going 
ahead splendidly when he was made Lord Mayor. And of course 
he was only inaugurated a very short time when he was murdered. 


Now, Mr. MacCurtain was made Lord Mayor in January, after the 
municipal elections, which resulted in large Sinn Fein majorities all 
over the country. 

Q. Senator Norris: January of what year? 

A. January, 1920. The councillors were elected to the corpora- 
tion, and then the new corporation elected the Lord Mayor. He was 
unanimously chosen. The first thing that the new corporation did 
was to declare allegiance to Dail Eireann. The keeping of that 
resolution declaring allegiance to Dail Eireann, which is the Irish 
Parliament, was one of the charges brought against my brother when 
he was tried in the August following. 



I alluded to the genial disposition of Mr. MacCurtain. And at 
the same time he was a very competent and capable business man. 
When he was elected Lord Mayor, he won golden opinions from his 
opponents immediately for the masterly way he grasped the affairs 
of the corporation, and the businesslike attitude he took toward it. 
And the attitude not only of the Lord Mayor, but of the whole cor- 
poration, that the business of the city should be carried on in an 
efficient way without any corruption whatever. They were deter- 
mined that economy should be practiced in the city. Wherever you 
have a society like ours, a social system where you have an alien 
people imposing its will on the people, you have a great deal of 
inefficiency, — worthless people pressing you for jobs. I am quite 
sure that the American people know the meaning of the word job. 
And these inefficient people are put into positions, and a great deal 
of money is squandered. The new Republican organization made 
up its mind that this inefficiency should be destroyed forever. The 
salary of the Lord Mayor was six hundred pounds a year. That is 
not a very large amount, and it is not as big as it looks, because I 
think about one-half of it had to go to certain charities. Indeed, so 
much had to be spent in this way that, although the salary was origi- 
nally only five hundred pounds a year, one hundred pounds was 
added on to it, because there were two additional charities to which 
the Lord Mayor was expected to contribute fifty pounds a year each. 
But the new council decided that that should go, as the first step in 
the direction of economy. The Lord Mayor also did a great deal in 
the way of entertainment, and always began the year with what was 
known as the Lord Mayor's banquet. It was decided that that should 
go, and there should be no extravagance whatever. Everything nec- 
essary for the life of the citizens should be done. But it was not 
thought necessary for the Lord Mayor and his friends to sit around 
a table eating their fill and drinking. That was not considered nec- 
essary for the good of Ireland. They also gave pleasing proof that 
they meant what they said, and that they were not out to make things 
easy for themselves financially. Another rule that they made was 
that the members of the corporation were expected to attend to their 
duties, and above all the Lord Mayor was expected to attend to his 
duties. Some Lord Mayors had gone to the city hall to perform 
their duties perhaps three or four hours out of the week. The new 
Lord Mayor undertook to do differently. It was rather destructive 
of the Lord Mayor's business, but they determined that was what 
had to be done. 


Q. Senator Norris: So that they cut clown his salary and in- 
creased his work? 

A. Yes. exactly, that is what they did. 


I should like to stress the wonderfully good influence that Lord 
Mayor MacCurtain had on the Unionist members of the corpora- 
tion. They expected to have a very bad time of it. They found that 
they got just as good treatment as his colleagues. There were two 
representatives of the Federation of Discharged Soldiers and Sailors. 
Owing to the very large number of men that Cork had in the Eng- 
lish army before and during the war, these men were able under the 
proportional representation system to send two members to the cor- 
poration. It did not follow as a matter of fact that they were anti- 
Irish, — as a fact they were not; but they wanted to get what they 
wanted for the former soldiers and sailors from the Republican 
Government. They expected to have a very bad time from the Gov- 
ernment that was opposed to the English army. As a matter of fact 
they did not. They found out that they were accepted as good citi- 
zens, and expected to cooperate for the good of the whole popula- 
tion. All these classes of the population were greatly touched by 
the attitude of the Lord Mayor and the other members of the cor- 
poration towards them. And they showed it, and I don't believe 
there could have been a better example of that than the way that the 
whole of Cork rallied around the Lord Mayor at the time of his 
death. Everyone in Cork was of the same mind. There was a spe- 
cial meeting of the corporation called on the day of his death, and 
every Unionist member spoke; and I may as well tell you that at 
that meeting, at which I was present, one of the bitterest anti-Irish 
and pro-Unionist people in the corporation actually cried when he 
was seconding the vote of sympathy to Mrs. MacCurtain and the 
condemnation of the cruel action. At that time, of course, there was 
no question as to who had committed the murder. There was a gen- 
eral outburst of feeling on the part of the whole city. And I could 
read you many examples of the nice things that were said about him 
by the Unionists. Some of us had the idea that it was because of 
the rapidity with which he was winning over the hearts of the Union- 
ists and impressing upon them the fact that they were all Irishmen 
together and should work for Ireland's good, and the fact that he 
was such a thoroughly practical business man, — you see, I am stress- 
ing that because we are called and have been called for years im- 


practical idealists; we have lovely theories, but we have no practical 
conception of business matters at all; that we have no idea of how 
to run a state or run a city, and that we are always up in the moon. 
But Lord Mayor MacCurtain showed that he had such a practical 
grasp of business matters that he opened the eyes of a great many 
people who had never come into personal contact with Irish Re- 
publican people before. And he had practically within a month 
converted the whole corporation into Republicans. Even the resolu- 
tion of the corporation pledging allegiance to Dail Eireann got prac- 
tically no opposition. 

One of the things the corporation had to do was to send up the 
name of someone for sheriff to the High Commissioner. The cor- 
poration was considering whether they should send up the name of a 
man who had been in prison for one and a half years on a false 
charge. They had never succeeded in getting a jury to convict him. 
The most they could do was to get a jury that would disagree, — 
they got enough Unionists on the jury for that. Of course he did 
not defend himself. You understand that we Republicans do not 
defend ourselves in the English courts. We do not recognize their 
courts. This matter of the appointment of McMurray, who was in 
prison on a false charge, was a question of sending his name up to 
the Lord Lieutenant as high sheriff. That would, of course, have 
been a kind of act of contempt towards them. We would send up 
as the man who would control the prisons the man whom they were 
keeping in prison falsely. But we decided that that would be an 
act below us. The Republican members of the corporation decided 
that they would not even in contempt of England and English law 
send up the name of a man who, if he was elected, would have to 
take the oath of allegiance to the English Government, and so they 
did not send up any name. One of the members of the corporation 
suggested that they should not let go by default the privilege that 
they had not long ago gained, the privilege of nominating the man 
for high sheriff. But they ignored that member and refused to make 
any appointment. Sir John Scott, who was the Unionist who pro- 
posed that they should send up three names, did not even get among 
the Unionists of the group a second to his motion. 

Q. Miss MacSwiney, you started to say something about the be- 
lief that Mayor MacCurtain's efficiency and his popularity and his 
ability to win over the Unionists of the opposition was a significant 
reason for his death? 

Chairman Howe: Can you begin right there, so that we can get, 
through the principal facts right down to the inquest, please? 



A. That, of course, couldn't be proved, but it is very reasonable 
to suppose. But he, of course, had been on the run, although he had 
been sleeping at home. — a great deal more than some of the others 
like my brother. He was there, I think, because he had a great deal 
of business to attend to, and he had a small family, and his wife was 
not well. He happened to be home on the night of the nineteenth of 
March, 1920. A knock came at the door. It was between one and 
a quarter-past, or one and half-past, anyway, in the morning. As 
usual, they came to the conclusion that it was the military or the 
police, and he wanted to go down, but his wife would not let him. 
She put her head out of the window and asked, "Who is there?" 
and the answer came back, "Come down quick." The plan is, ot 
course, not to let the men go down and open the door, for they 
would be shot on the spot; so usually the women go down and open 
the door to let the man escape if possible. Before she got down- 
stairs, the door was smashed in. About six men smashed their way 
in, and two of them gripped her and pushed her up against the wall, 
and one of them said, "Hold that woman!" And the others rushed 

I want you to know this thing: they went immediately to Mr. Mac- 
Curtain's room. There was no hesitation at all. And that is re- 
markable in a house like MacCurlain's, where the steps are very 
peculiarly placed. You would have to know the house very well to 
know where you were going. You had to enter through the porch. 
The stairs were on a side passage to the left. There was a very 
funny twist in them towards the top, and you could not possibly find 
vour way about the house unless you knew it well. They made no 
hesitation. They went straight to his room and called, "Come out. 
Curtain." Mrs. MacCurtain, who was downstairs, heard the baby 
cry and she begged to go upstairs and bring the baby down. They 
would not let her. She pleaded with them. She said they had 
mothers and babies themselves; and they would not let her go. 
Then the shots rang out, as soon as they had yelled out, "Come out, 
Curtain." He came to the door and they shot him. He was killed 
by three revolver shots. The baby then ceased to cry, — perhaps it 
was taken by its aunt; and the poor mother thought that the babv 
was shot too. She was in a fainting condition. Meanwhile the six 
men came downstairs and went out. The sister upstairs had run to 
the rescue of the Lord Mayor, only to find out that he was bleeding 


and in a dying condition. Mrs. MacCurtain ran out of the house 
crying, "For God's sake, a priest and a doctor!" 

Q. Chairman Howe: One minute: you are testifying as to facts 
that you heard brought out at the inquest? 

A. No, these are the facts that I heard at the house when I 
visited them. 

Q. Were these facts brought out at the inquest? 

A. Yes, all these facts were brought out at the inquest. If I am 
going too much into detail, tell me. 

The main thing brought out at the inquest is that Lord Mayor 
MacCurtain was murdered at quarter past one; that there were shots 
fired from outside the house when the brother put his head out and 
called for help; that there is a police barracks within fifty yards 
from the house; that nobody in those barracks could possibly help 
from hearing those shots, but not a policeman appeared from those 
barracks until eight o'clock in the morning. 


Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Was it brought out at the inquest that 
there had been a zone around the house? 

A. Yes, there were four roads leading to that particular street. 
Those roads were held by parties of armed men. One of those roads 
was held by men who were in police uniform. Two men testified 
that they wanted to get to their homes through those streets, but that 
they were not allowed by policemen in uniform to proceed. All the 
other men were not in uniform. All the men who entered Mr. Mac- 
Curtain's house that night had their faces blackened. They were 
not in uniform. 

Q. When was this zone established? 

A. This zone was established about a quarter past one. 

Q. Was that established at the inquest? 

A. Yes, by railroad men who were going home and watchmen 
who were leaving their homes. It was established that this zone was 
established, that a half-dozen men were stopped and put with their 
backs to the wall until the murder was completed, and then they 
were told to stay where they were for half an hour or they would be 


Q. Is it not also true that it was brought out at the inquest that 
the records of the goings and comings of police had not been kept 
for a week or two before and after the shooting? 


A. Yes, on the night of the tenth of March there had been shots 
fired at a policeman. We had a night of terror in the city. The 
police shot people, shot people of the city. They went looking for 
men on the run, who would have been shot like Mr. MacCurtain if 
they had been found. They ran amuck, as we say. And then they 
went back to their barracks. Of course, the rules of the barracks 
are that every time that ammunition is taken or a gun is taken off 
the racks in the barracks, it must be put clown in the books. No 
account whatever was put down for the taking of guns and ammu- 
nition on the tenth of March. It was acknowledged that the police 
did go out that night and did shootings, and it is acknowledged that 
no record whatever was kept. 

Q. This was the week before the shooting of the Lord Mayor? 

A. Yes, it was the tenth, a week before. The night of the tenth 
of March the police went amuck through the streets looking for 
Volunteers to shoot, and breaking windows and shooting several 

Q. Commissioner Addams: That was after an attempt to shoot 
a policeman. Was any of them killed? 

A. No, one was wounded, but no one killed. 

Q. Was the shooting of the Lord Mayor a reprisal for the shoot- 
ing of that policeman? 

A. I think the police were anxious to make it appear so, but of 
course they never acknowledged that it was done by them; they tried 
to pretend that it was not done by the police, but the evidence was 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Miss MacSwiney, you were at the 


Q. Senator Norris: This idea has come to me, not only in the 
case of the murder of Lord Mayor MacCurtain, but in other cases 
where Black-and-Tans had broken into houses in the night. Why 
is it that these people whom they come to kill do not defend them- 
selves? They certainly would have a good opportunity to shoot 
people coming into their homes. For instance, why did not the Lord 
Mayor, coming out of his room as he did, shoot them? 

A. Because they do not have any arms in the house. 

Q. Why do not they have? The Lord Mayor could have, could 
he not? 


A. I suppose that he could. But a married man like that who 
ventures to sleep at home with his family would not have arms. If 
he slept at home with his family he would take the risk of escaping 
arrest that night. If they found a revolver in the house, of course 
he would be imprisoned for two years. You are simply placing 
yourself in their hands if you are found with a revolver, because 
that is a charge that they punish with two years' imprisonment at 
least. 1 

Q. No, but the Lord Mayor knew he was going to be killed, and 
the idea occurs to me that he might have had a revolver there and 
sold his life as clearly as possible. He might have killed three or 
four of those people before they got him. 

A. No, but at that time they had not begun to shoot clown un- 
armed men. It was the first time. To be exact, the shooting of two 
unarmed men the week before on the tenth of March was the first 
event of that kind. From that time on no man ventured to sleep in 
his house without arms, as I have told you that when my brother did 
sleep at home with his guard, both were armed, and on the two occa- 
sions when we had an alarm at the door, they were prepared to sell 
their lives dearly. But that was after the murder of Lord Mayor 


Q. Senator Walsh: Excuse me a moment. You said at the time 
of Lord Mayor MacCurtain's death you had reached the stage of 
armed warfare. Do you mean that up to that time the campaign 
was one of passive resistance and not of open warfare? 

A. No, we do not make the claim of passive resistance after 1916. 
Up to 1916 it was passive resistance. After that time it was not. 
What I mean is that while the Volunteers carried arms and were 
compelled to defend themselves against open force, we had not 
reached the stage where the British Government was ordering shoot- 
ings and raids and the killing of unarmed men at sight. Therefore, 
the men staying at home did not carry arms. 

Q. My impression of the Irish situation is that you had an open 
revolution in 1916, and then you later proceeded to hold elections 
and get an evidence of the unmistakable desire of the people of Ire- 
land to have applied to them the principle of self-determination; and 

1 Under martial law regulations recently imposed upon the principal 
counties of southern Ireland, the death penalty is inflicted on those found 
with firearms or ammunition in their possession. 


the evidence of the election proved that you wanted that principle 
applied to you as well as to any other country. And that you then 
proceeded to do all of the things necessary to set up a republican 
form of government without bloodshed, without any war, without 
murders, and without any policy of destruction of human life; and 
that that policv was rigidly carried out until such time as the Eng- 
lish Government began to send soldiers and Blaek-and-Tans into 
Ireland and began to interfere with the functioning of that govern- 
ment which you had previously established. Is my idea right or 

A. It is absolutely right. Senator, with our true policy; if you 
take it that we have never said that we would have nothing but pas- 
sive resistance. Up to the time that the campaign of the enemy be- 
gan, and became so hot against us, there never was any offensive, 
never any shooting, on our part. You are quite right that we wanted 
to get our government going. If our courts had been allowed to 
meet in peace, and we had been allowed to carry on the municipal 
government of the country, we would have been quite willing to do 
that and build our country up, and then have turned our attention 
to clearing the enemy out, peaceably if possible. We would always 
have done it pacifically if possible. 

Q. Up to that time you had what we in this country call a blood- 
less revolution. You had by the ballot box and by talk and discus- 
sion brought about the revolution about as effectively as if there had 
been bloodshed. You had established a form of government, and 
had done everything you could to drive off the old government with- 
out the shedding of blood. So that so far there was no force and 
no armed activity. Is that true? 

A. Now, I want to be exact. As I told you yesterday about the 
little incident of the submarine and the torpedo boat destroyer — 

Q. But did any Irish Volunteers or anybody else murder any 
policemen or anybody else up to the time of the murder of Mayor 
MacCurtain ? 

A. Oh, we destroyed police barracks and things like that. 

Q. When? 

A. In 1916. 

Q. I am asking you if there came a time when you had without 
bloodshed and without force and arms established a functioning 
government, and whether that was by peaceful methods. 

A. From the beginning of 1916 to 1919 the Irish Republican 
Army was in existence and strengthening itself wherever it could. 

Q. What was it doing? 


A. Drilling itself, largely in secret. Gathering arms whenever it 

Q. Anticipating what? 

A. Anticipating exactly what happened: that as soon as we 
showed that we could govern our country without them, the English 
would take very good care that we did not. But we never have been 
guilty of an act of aggression and never would have been if Eng- 
land had cleared out and let us alone. We do not want war if we 
can possibly get out of it. 

Q. What your American friends want to know, my opinion is, 
at least those who have extreme pacifist views, is how long you were 
patient, how long you were resisting the temptation to meet murder 
with murder and go into open warfare. 

Mr. D. F. Malone: Wait just a moment. 

Senator Walsh: Just a moment, please. Some of the best articles 
that have been written in America on the Irish question, and some 
of the things that interested the American people most, were about 
the new order that had been brought about as to the things accom- 
plished by a bloodless revolution and passive resistance. Now, if 
it was not passive resistance, if there was warfare and bloodshed, 
it is a different thing. Do you get my idea? 

A. Yes. There was no warfare at all until after 1916, when they 
began to interfere with our government. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: When did the open warfare begin, 
after the Easter revolution of 1916? 

A. Well, you see for a long time our men were in prison. There 
was a period of inactivity. 

Q. What provoked it again? What started it up? 

A. The absolute determination of England to prevent us doing 
anything. There was no more open warfare until after 1918. After 
that we started our government functioning. For twelve months I 
do not think she realized that we were building up an extraordi- 
narily stable government in the country, in spite of the fact that she 
had an army of occupation there. 

Q. That was the same election that elected Lloyd George in 
England? And for awhile after that there was comparative peace 
and quiet? 

A. Yes, as long as we were let alone to build up our own gov- 
ernment there was peace and quiet. 

Q. What overt act started things up? 

A. The extraordinary activity of the English secret service, 
when they started to get information about our people and running 
them down and gathering information about our courts. I cannot 


say the exact date. 1 want to be scrupulously exact, and do not 
want to make a mistake. With us the whole question was what was 
best for the movement. We had no scruples, and I would not in- 
fluence my pacifist friends for a moment. We had no scruples 
against open warfare if it was necessary to get independence for 
Ireland. But we did not want war. We put it off as long as pos- 
sible. It may have been 1919 before the warfare began. I am in- 
clined to think it was before the burning of police barracks. But if 
you understood how fast we are living in Ireland, you would realize 
that during the last four years we have lived through a generation. 
Before a Commission like this I want to be very exact on details, 
and I cannot tell you the exact date on which we began to burn 
police barracks. 

Commissioner Addams: I did not mean the exact date. I think 
you have answered what I want. 

The Witness: I would like to stress that we have been living 
through a whole generation recently, — what would have been a 
whole remarkable epoch in an ordinary nation's life; that we have 
forgotten one thing when the other comes on. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: May I ask you one statement, some- 
thing that has been made to me many times by friends. I have 
friends who have said (of course we are not pacifists in the extreme 
sense, but the history of the recent war shows that going to war is 
the last thing that you want to do), — some of them say, "The Irish 
were making good progress. They had a government and courts 
functioning. They had put the British in an extremely difficult posi- 
tion in the eyes of the world." They say, "We are not philosophical 
pacifists, but we think they made a blunder for their own cause when 
they gave Lloyd George a chance to say to the world that these hor- 
rible things were being done, not only when police barracks were 
burned, because that was only the loss of property, but police were 
shot and law and order broken." In other words — we are talking 
in a family way here — I think you will find not only the philosophi- 
cal argument but the practical argument that you had made such 
enormous strides, — you had not won everything but you had made 
enormous strides; that it was a mistake to give Lloyd George a 
chance to say there was open aggression which he had to suppress, 
and which the Irish brought about. What I want is to get actual 
instances where there was actual aggression by the British before 
Irish violence began. 

A. Yes, that is what I am trying to bring out. Before any trouble 
started — 



Commissioner Thomas: Yes, I know that argument, but I am 
trying to get you to state specific instances. 

The Witness: Well, first of all there was the arrest of the Sinn 
Fein members. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Of Parliament? 

A. Yes, of Parliament. They put all the Sinn Fein members in 
jail, but that did not matter, because the remainder were Republi- 
cans, and they were able to carry on. But in one case — take the 
Galway County Council — they arrested all the Sinn Feiners, and with 
the rest they could do what they liked, and called it the Galway 
County Council. And again, they hampered the courts. They know 
the courts gave a greater impression in England than anything else. 
You know the daily papers gave case after case where before you 
had the police courts, you now have the Sinn Fein courts giving 
judgments that the people eagerly accept. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Did they begin to obliterate these 
courts before the violence began? 

A. They did it not openly at first, but secretly. 

Q. Senator Norris: It is important to inquire about the time. 
Did the British Government begin its methods of obstruction by ar- 
rest or otherwise of the Sinn Fein leaders before there was anything 
done by the Irish against British officials? 

A. Oh, yes. I think I can say that it was, but I cannot give you 
exact dates. I think I must have said something about 1918, when 
it was in 1919. I honestly tell you, I would have to go to the papers 
and look it up. We are living at a great rate, and I would have to 
ask your consideration on that point of view. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Miss MacSwiney, I think perhaps, — 
if the Chairman and the others think this is a correct procedure, — 
it seems to me that this is so important that we should know the 
facts accurately. I am wondering if you would collaborate with 
Mr. Malone and other counsel so that there could be given to the 
Commission an exact statement of the course of events, of acts of 
violence by the British government before there was trouble. 

A. Yes, I would like to do that. But you see, if I make one mis- 
statement I would be put down in English papers as telling lies. 

Commissioner Thomas: Yes, I quite appreciate that. 

Q. Senator Walsh: You were enumerating the things, when you 
were interrupted, the things that you said provoked the Irish people 
to give up in part or surrender in part their policy of passive re- 


sistance. And you named the arrest of the leaders and the breaking 
up of the courts. Now, what other things? 

A. The system of espionage which made it impossible for our 
civic leaders to carry out any work for the good of the country with- 
out being spied on by the English police, and being arrested or shot 
in consequence. The system of spying that was carried on, and the 
fact that it was impossible for our people to carry on the govern- 
ment for the good of the country, brought the first trouble about. 
All that I would like to look up, — dates and facts, and give them in 
writing to the Commission. 

Commissioner Addams: That would be very kind of you, Miss 

Commissioner Thomas: Thank you very much. 

The Witness: I would be glad to do that. 1 

Q. Senator Norris: I hope in doing that you will not think that 
the American people consider that the Irish people have to wait 
until they are obliterated and put in prison before they are justified 
in putting up a resistance and fighting. Personally I am called a 
great pacifist, and I have suffered a great deal of abuse on the sub- 
ject. I asked you the question about Lord Mayor MacCurtain. It 
seems to me that if I had been him, I would have shot those men. 
I would have tried to see how many of the other fellows I could 
have laid out first, before they got me. 

A. Perhaps that is the best answer I can give to your question : 
up to the time that Lord Mayor MacCurtain was shot, there had 
been none of our unarmed leaders shot in their homes. 

Q. But there was a policeman shot nine days before? 

A. Yes, but he was not unarmed. \ou understand, please, Miss 
Addams, that all the policemen are fully armed. 

Mr. D. F. Malone: They were not all shot by Republican sym- 
pathizers, either. 

The Witness: No, indeed they were not. 

Senator Norris: It happens occasionally in America that a police- 
man is shot here. 

The Witness: Well, you see, you have criminals in America. 
But there are no criminals in Ireland who would be shooting police- 
men. I dare say we would have our share of them if we had not 
been so heart and soul devoted to the salvation of our country that 
we had no time. And I may as well tell you that the petty criminals 

1 The facts in question are contained in a memorandum, The Develop- 
ment of the English Military Campaign Against the Irish People, sub- 
mitted to the Commission pursuant to this request, and incorporated in 
the evidence as Exhibit T. See Index. 


we had, — the drunks and disorderlies and petty larcenies, they had 
all gone into the army,— all the rascals went into the English army 
to fight the war. 

May I just take that suggestion you made, Senator Norris, and 
say this about it. There is no question whatever that our people had 
never expected to be shot in their beds like that before the murder 
of Lord Mayor MacCurtain, and therefore they did not carry their 
arms to bed with them. From the time of the murder of Lord Mayor 
MacCurtain, no Volunteer went to bed unarmed, but was well pre- 
pared for what might .happen. 

Q. Senator Walsh: But what we want to know is this: how long 
and to what extent the Irish people resisted the attempts of the 
British Government to provoke them into answering back by force 
of arms. 

A. Yes, but you will let me get exact facts and dates. 

Senator Walsh: We all appreciate the provocation, and the pa- 
tience of the Irish people in meeting that provocation. But we want 
to know how long the Irish people held back. 


Commissioner Thomas: It has been repeatedly charged, — to give 
you one specific instance, the editorial in the New York Times this 
morning, — it has been often charged that within the leaders of the 
Republican Army there have been two minds on the right and ex- 
pediency of certain of these shootings. Have you any first-hand evi- 
dence, or can you put us in the way of any evidence, on this point? 

A. I cannot. May I ask you a question in return, Mr. Thomas? 
Have you ever had a cabinet that did not have divisions on ques- 
tions of policy? 

Commissioner Thomas: I would reply that it is often a pity that 
there is so little division in opinion among members of cabinets in 

The Witness: Then you agree that a certain division of opinion 

is wise 

Commissioner Thomas: Yes. 

The Witness: I think that a division of opinion in the Republi- 
can cabinet is sometimes quite possible. The men in our cabinet are 
all men of strong character. You never find men of strong charac- 
ter who are always of the same mind. 

Commissioner Thomas : I think that is a hopeful symptom. 

The Witness: It is so in our case. 


Mr. D. F. Mai one: But you see. Miss MacSwiney, the New York 
Times is only of one mind, and thinks that we will all be stupid 
enough to be of the same mind. 

The Witness: That sounds like Lloyd George. Every cabinet in 
which there are strong men of character will discuss things openly 
and frankly, and then come to a decision which holds. Lloyd George 
has tried to impress your people with the fact that we are all at 
sixes and sevens. I begged you yesterday not to believe Lloyd 
George when he says that the members of the Irish Republic are 
continuously fighting among themselves. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: What we want to know is how unani- 
mous the opinion of the cabinet is in matters like the killing of these 
fourteen policemen. 

A. I am not in the cabinet, and the cabinet keeps its mind to 
itself. But they had discussed that question and had come to a de- 

Q. But we meant, there was no great disagreement in the cabinet? 

A. There may have been one or two timid minds, — I do not 
know. But the majority certainly favored that policy. 


Chairman Howe: Now, we will go back to the inquest. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Will you discuss what the chief witnesses 
said at the inquest? 

Chairman Howe: We would like to get through in eight or ten 
minutes if we could. 

The Witness: I think the knowledge that the police were re- 
sponsible for the murder of Lord Mayor MacCurtain was pretty 
generally known among Republicans on the morning of his death, 
but it had not got to be generally accepted as the opinion of the 
whole city until the inquest began. The inquest took a very long 
time. The principal witnesses were those who testified to the hold- 
ing up of civilians from entering the zone that was formed by the 
police around the Lord Mayor's house. A lamplighter testified to 
the fact that he was held up on a road which leads from King Street 
to the Hill road, — that is the road on which we live. That particular 
band was supposed to be waiting for my brother. They did not 
know that he was home that night, and they were not searching the 
house. But it was thought that as soon as Mrs. MacCurtain knew 
that her husband was murdered, she would send instantly for my 
brother, and perhaps one or two others, and they would have the 


opportunity of shooting them too. However, this lamplighter was 
stopped on York Hill and they sent him back another road. An- 
other man named Desmond, a lamplighter also, had parted from the 
first lamplighter named Thompson. He had a brother who was also 
a lamplighter, and their general plan was to wait for each other on 
the corner of King Street (since then, I can tell you, called Mac- 
Curtain Street) , so that they could go home together to the south 
side of the city. He got there first that night, and stood on the porch 
of the Coliseum Theater, exactly opposite the police barracks. He 
had been standing there for a quarter of an hour when he saw this 
band of armed men coming down York Hill, — the foot of York 
Hill, to be precise, eight or ten yards from the door of the King 
Street police barracks. They came down York Hill in single file. 
They walked very quietly. They must have had rubber soles on their 
shoes. Each man was dressed as the murderers were dressed, with 
rain coats mostly, some dark and some drab. He could not say what 
they had on their heads. But they came down the hill in single file. 
They went up the steps of the police barracks. The carried re- 
volvers down by their sides. They walked with the steps of sol- 
diers, for policemen in Ireland are always drilled like, soldiers. 
They tapped lightly on the door of the police barracks, and the door 
was opened instantly, and they went inside immediately. No light 
was shown. 

He thought that something was up, and he went home without 
waiting for his brother, as fast as he could. He came forward very 
bravely and gave evidence at the inquest. And an attempt was made 
on his life during the inquest, but did not succeed. That was about 
twenty minutes to two. 

Another man, a postman, saw that same body of men file down 
from the police barracks about one o'clock. 

Q. Mr. Mai one: What time was Mayor MacCurtain killed? 

A. About quarter-past or half-past one; I cannot say exactly. 

Q. So that a file of men were seen to leave the police barracks 
about a quarter of an hour previously? 

A. Yes. But they did not come back all together at the same 
time. With the number who held up the roads and so forth, there 
must have been a large number of men engaged. 

Q. Was there evidence that roads were held up? 

A. Yes. 

Q. How many roads? 

A. On one road six men were held up and stood with their backs 
to the wall. And on another road another man was stood up by 
these same men with long coats and soft, dark hats. And the third 


road was held up by policemen in uniform. They prevented men 
from passing Lord Mayor MacCurtain's house. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What reason did they give for holding up 
these men? 

A. They asked them what business they had on the streets then. 

Q. Was this before or after the mayor was murdered? 

A. While he was being murdered. One man who was held up 
by the policemen in uniform was prevented from passing Lord 
Mayor MacCurtain's house, and was sent clown a road which led out 
by a church beyond Lord Mayor MacCurtain's house. He looked 
back, and the police shouted, "Go on and keep your eyes before 
you." The first time he looked back he saw four policemen stand- 
ing at Lord Mayor MacCurtain's house. His house was only a few 
doors beyond, and just as he got there he heard three shots ring out. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Was all this evidence at the inquest? 

A. Yes, every bit of it was sworn evidence at the inquest. I 
don't know whether you think it relevant, but at half-past two that 
morning officers and soldiers came to raid the Lord Mayor's house. 
There were policemen outside. But this night the policemen refused 
to enter the house. The rule was that the policemen searched the 
house while the military remained on guard. This night the officers 
searched the house and saw the dead man lying there and the women 
weeping. A question was asked in the House of Commons the clay 
after the murder. Mr. Ian MacPherson, who was Chief Secretary at 
that time, was asked why they so cruelly sent a military party to 
search a house where a man was lying dead. And the answer Mr. 
MacPherson gave was that the military party had been sent to Mayor 
MacCurtain's house to find out clews to the murder. General Strick- 
land, the military commander who had sent that military party, said 
the next day that when the officers had come to the house, they had 
no idea of the murder, and he did not know of it until the officers 
got back and reported. 

Q. Senator Walsh: So that the claim of the Irish Republic sym- 
pathizers is that the police sent this military party to show that they 
had no knowledge of the murder? 

A. Well, my theory is 

Q. Is that the general opinion? 

A. My personal opinion is that the military did not know it. 

Q. But the police? 

A. The police and the military at that time were separate bodies. 
They are together now, but they were not then. 

Q. Senator Norris: Your theory is that both the police and the 
military were after him the same night? 


A. Yes, and acted independently. 

Q. And that the going of the military in there afterwards was 
not for the purpose of deceiving the population as to who committed 
the murder? 

A. No, I do not believe it was. The police, who got the order 
from the military at five o'clock that afternoon to have three police- 
men ready to conduct the party on the raid, hoped to use it as a 
cover. But I do not really think that the military knew what was 
going on that night. 

Q. Who ordered his killing that night? 

A. 0, I suppose the orders came from Dublin Castle. 

Q. Why did they not use the military rather than the police? 

A. 0, the military were really decent up to that time. They 
were rather decent, and were not consciously out for murder up to 
that time. Now they are quite different. The military believed that 
they were there quite largely because Ireland was their country. 
Some of them think it still. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Did that practically conclude the testi- 
mony offered at the inquest about the connection of the police with 
the murder? 

A. No, there was another significant thing. A doctor who lives 
on the Hill saw a body of armed men stop at the corner, and three 
or four of them go further up the hill. A nurse who lives farther 
up that way saw them enter District Inspector Swanzy's house. 

Q. Saw who going i 

A. The men. 

Chairman Howe: Mr. Malone, this detailed evidence is interest- 
ing, but it is something that we will never pass upon. Can we not 
get at the other facts? 

Mr. D. F. Malone: Senator Norris wanted to hear about this data. 


Q. What was the verdict, Miss MacSwiney? 

Senator Walsh: Of course we want details as to just why he was 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone : I want to ask you first if the coroner who 
presided at the inquest was an officer of the British Government? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Is he appointed by the British Government? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Was there a jury? 


A. \es. the jury was impaneled by the police. 

Q. And this is the verdict of the jury? 

A. Yes, of course. The police gave evidence at the inquest, and 
tried to prove by their books that they were all in their beds. But 
the evidence proved that the books were unreliable. The books at 
the time were not properly kept. They were obliged to admit that 
under oath. 

Q. What was the verdict? 

A. The verdict is this: 

"We find that the late Alderman Thomas MacCurtain, Lord Mavor 
of Cork, died from shock and hemorrhage caused by bullet wounds; 
that he was- wilfully murdered under circumstances of the most cal- 
lous brutality: that the murder was organized and carried out by 
the Royal Irish Constabularv, officially directed by the British Gov- 
ernment; and we return a verdict of wilful murder against David 
Lloyd George, prime minister of England; Lord French, lord lieu- 
tenant of Ireland; Ian MacPherson, late chief secretary for Ireland; 
Acting Inspector General Smith of the Royal Irish Constabulary; 
Divisional Inspector Clayton of the Royal Irish Constabulary; Dis- 
trict Inspector Swanzy, and some unknown members of the Royal 
Irish Constabulary. We strongly condemn the system now in vogue 
of carrying out raids at unseasonable hours. We tender to Mrs. 
MacCurtain and her family our sympathy in their bereavement. 
This sympathy we extend to the city of Cork in the loss they have 
sustained of one so capable of carrying out their city administra- 

Q. Senator Norris: How many were on the jury? 

A. Fourteen. 

Q. The coroner is a crown officer? 

A. Yes. 


Q. Who selected the men who sat on the jury? 

A. The police always impanel the jury. There are certain 
names, the names of the list of burgesses, you see, and they take 
these names at haphazard. Coroners' juries are not like criminal 
juries. People do not object to going and serving. 

Q. Who puts these names on the jury? 

A. The coroner directs the police officer to summon the jury. 
The police, I believe, summon sixteen or eighteen. The coroner's 
jury is not like an ordinary jury. You may have twelve men, or 
you may have more. 


Q. The police were charged with the crime. Then why did they 
select the jury? 

A. There was no one else to select the jury at this time. When 
the first men were summoned, only seven of them showed up. Then 
the coroner called upon several citizens who offered themselves as 
willing to act. One or two were members of the corporation, and 
one of them suggested that as a member of the corporation he might 
not be considered eligible. The coroner at first said, "I don't see 
what difference that would make." And finally he thought better 
not to ask them to serve. The solicitor for the King asked what 
each man's occupation was, because, he said, that on account of the 
evidence he was about to submit, no policeman could sit on that 
jury. So on that ground several of them withdrew. 

Q. Senator Walsh: I would like to know if the British Crown 
was represented at that inquest? 

A. yes. 

Q. And that all the formalities had been complied with that had 
been complied with in the days of peace? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And that they, by the presence of their authorities, recognized 
it as an official procedure? 

A. 0, yes, it was an absolutely official court in that case. 


I would like to say, in addition, that at first they had only the 
Crown solicitor to represent them; they later brought in the most 
eminent K. C. — King's Counsel — in the country to represent them. 
I would like to say of that man, Mr. Wiley, a very eminent man : it 
was easy for us to see that all through the inquest he was acting 
honorably, and that he got a complete shock when the evidence 
showed so conclusively that the police had committed this murder. 
Before the evidence was half-way through, he withdrew on the plea 
of business elsewhere. He had to go somewhere else. Before he 
went away he said that, perhaps, from his position he might not be 
believed, but that he spoke from his heart in sympathizing with Mrs. 
MacCurtain and the family. And it was quite easy to see that he 
spoke from his heart. A short time after that Mr. Wiley, who was 
a very young man, and who could have risen very high in his pro- 
fession, resigned from his position and cut off all connection with 
his party, the Unionist Party, which could have helped him to reach 
as high a position as Sir Edward Carson, 


Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Was there any evidence that the bullets 
found in the body of Lord Mayor MacCurtain were police bullets? 

A. Yes, there was. But I would not like to make a point of it, 
because their counsel said that many police revolvers and bullets 
had been captured by Sinn Feiners. And that was true. So al- 
though there were police bullets found there, that would not be abso- 
lute identification because the Sinn Feiners have about as many 
police revolvers as the police themselves. But there was a police 
button found. 

Q. Where? 

A. At the door, where Mrs. MacSwiney was. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Had there been a struggle there? 

A. I don't think so. He did not stress that as a matter of very- 
great importance. But the button was found. I am perfectly honest 
in telling you that I would not myself consider the fact that the 
bullets found were police bullets was conclusive evidence, because 
we have captured a good many of their rifles and revolvers, and we 
are capturing more. 


Q. But there was no reason why Lord Mayor MacCurtain would 
be killed by Republicans? 

A. I would like to say that Lord French gave an interview to a 
newspaper man, I think it was the Dublin Express; and in that in- 
terview he said that there was conclusive evidence that Lord Mayor 
MacCurtain had been murdered by extremists in the Sinn Fein ranks, 
who were not satisfied with Lord Mayor MacCurtain because he was 
a moderate man. The jury heard of that and sent a summons to 
Sir John Taylor, under secretary of Dublin Castle, requesting Lord 
French to bring in this evidence. They sent that summons to Dublin 
Castle, and it was never answered — for, of course, Lord French did 
not have such evidence, and he knew he could not manufacture 
enough evidence to bolster up his statement in that way. 

Chairman Howe: Are there any other questions? 

Mr. D. F. Malone: No other questions. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 


Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: What is your full name, Mr. Guilfoil? 

A. P. J. Guilfoil. 

Q. Are you an American citizen? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where do you reside? 

A. In Pittsburgh. 

Q. What is the date of your last visit to Ireland? 

A. I landed on the twenty-fifth of May last. 

Q. Whom did you visit there? 

A. Just relatives. 

Q. Where did you live there? 

A. With my sister-in-law in Feakle in County Clare. She is 
a dressmaker and has a little cottage there. I was there for five 

Q. Was your family there? 

A. Yes, sir; my wife and two children. 

Q. How old are the children? 

A. One nine, the other seven. 

Q. And you were living in the house of your sister? 

A. Yes. 

Q. How long? 

A. From the twenty-fifth of May to the fifteenth of October. 
I wasn't there all of the time, for I was in Cork for a few days 
before I sailed. 


Q. I understand that the home in which you were living was 

A. Right. 

Q. Were you there at the time? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Just relate briefly for the commission the circumstances of 
that burning. What date was that? 

A. On the morning of October seventh. The postoffice is about 
a quarter of a mile out from this little town, and there were six 
of the Royal Irish Constabulary went out to this post office, and 
two of them got shot just as they reached the postoffice at ten- 
thirty in the morning. 

Q. The Commission; Did you see this or just hear about it? 


A. I saw the whole thing. I went out there about eleven or 
eleven-thirty to send a wire to Thomas Cook & Sons of Dublin 
about my return to the States. I knew about the happening be- 
fore I left the town to go out there, and being an American citi- 
zen and having my passport there, and being of good courage, 
I went out there after this happened. 

Q. The Commission: After what happened? 

A. After the two policemen were shot. 

Q. But you saw them shot? 

A. No, I saw them lying there. I was in the town then. When 
I got there there was a young priest, Father O'Reilly, the only 
priest in the parish, with the dead men. I viewed the remains 
by the roadside. Word had been sent to the military at Ennis, a 
town about eighteen miles from there. I questioned the priest 
about the matter, and he said that all he knew about it was that 
he was called there about a half hour before by a young girl 
who told him there were two men at the postoffice in a dying con- 
dition. The town physician had been there also, Dr. O'Halloran, 
but he had left before I arrived. I asked the priest if he did not 
run great danger of reprisals for remaining there. But he said, 
what could he do? He could not leave two dead bodies by the 
road, because there were pigs and dogs around there, and what 
could he do? I told him that if he felt that way about it, I 
would remain with him, which I did. 

About two o'clock the military arrived. There were about fifty 
of them arrived on horseback. They got the priest to provide a 
horse and cart to carry the remains into the town. 

Q. They asked the priest to do that? 

A. Yes, they did. They carried the bodies into the town, and 
some of the military remained there with the horses, and the 
others went on with the bodies. 


I remained there where the police were shot for about half an 
hour, and then I walked into the town. As I got into the town 
there was a man named Considine, — he has got a public house, 
which is what they call a saloon here, — and he is a carpenter by 
trade. He has three young sons who, it seems, are connected with 
the Sinn Fein movement. The military had taken possession of his 
house when I arrived. They were standing out in front with their 
bayonets fixed, standing on guard. They were plainly partaking 
of the liquids in the house. I saw that as I passed by. 


I walked on up the street. About fifty or sixty yards up is 
where my sister-in-law lives, on the other side of the street. I 
had no more than entered when an officer comes in and asks, 
"Where is the civilian who just entered?" I was the only man 
living in the cottage. He wanted to know where I belonged. I 
explained who I was, showed him my passport, and told him I was 
an American tourist. He examined the passport very closely, and 
asked me if I had a pencil, and I told him no, I had a fountain 
pen. And he said he was going to put me on the black list, and 
he took the number of my passport and also my name. I said that 
was very nice. He left there, but soon returned and had six sol- 
diers come back with him. They stood on guard outside the house 
and remained there until five that evening. Some of the men 
were visibly under the influence of liquor coming on towards 


At six-thirty that evening there was a military officer and a dis- 
trict inspector come down from Tulla, about eight miles away. 
They came down with six soldiers directly across from where I 
was living to where this priest was living, this Father O'Reilly. 
There is a stone coping about three feet high around the house, 
where there is a garden and flowers inside. The six soldiers re- 
mained outside and the officer went in and knocked at the door. 
And I stood directly across the street taking it all in. The of- 
ficer said to the priest when he answered the door, "Are you 
O'Reilly?" The priest answered, "Yes." Then he grabbed him 
by the collar and said, "Come here, you. You saw this horrible 
murder committed this morning. I will give you just five min- 
utes to confess. Who committed this horrible murder?" The priest 
said, "I am innocent. I had nothing to do with it." The officer 
said, "Attention, men." The six soldiers were standing outside 
the wall on the road. The six soldiers then went in and grabbed 
hold of the priest. Three of them had him by the head and three 
by the feet. They carried him out, the three in the lead carrying 
him out of the gate, and the three on the inside laid him down on 
the wall, face down. The two officers remained inside in the gar- 
den, and one of them said he would give him just one minute 
to confess to the horrible murder. The priest said he was inno- 
cent. One of the officers said, "Let him have it." And the sight 
of it was too horrible for me to witness, and I pulled my cap 


down so I would not see the flash. Instead of that, one of the 
soldiers stepped forward and with the butt of his rifle hit him 
three horrible blows across the hips. The officer said, "Now will 
you confess to this horrible crime?" He said, "I am innocent." 
The one officer spoke and said, "We will show you we are more 
humane than you are. And now get up and get into the house." 
The priest got up and started to go into the house, and as he did 
so, the officer gave him a kick and called him some terrible names 
as he went into the house. The six soldiers went on up to the 

Mr. D. F. Malone: If the Commission wants to know what sort 
of terrible language these soldiers used, I suppose we can ask 
for it. 

The Commission: No, it is not necessary. 

The Witness: The officer and soldiers went up to the barracks 
and got into a big motor lorry and went away. I went across the 
street and knocked at the door of the priest's house, and he let 
me into the house, and I said, "My God, are you able to stand 
up?" And he said, "I got some awful wallops and am suffering 
some great pain, but what am I going to do?" And I said, "I 
don't suppose your feet can carry you very far, but as far as they 
can carry you, I would advise you to get out of the town. There 
will be reprisals tonight." He said, "Well, if there are reprisals 
there will be people dying, and they will need a priest." I said, 
"You would not abandon that place out there this morning, and 
I will not urge you to leave. Use your own judgment, Father 


As I went across the street — it was getting dark — and as I 
crossed the street Dr. O'Halloran, the town physician, came down, 
and I said, "Where have you been?" And he said, "Up to the 
barracks. The conditions up there are terrible. They are all 
wild drunk." He said Finnery, a sergeant up there, got a ter- 
rible cut in his wrist. He stuck his first through a plate glass 
window down at Considine's. He said, "P. J., I would advise you 
to get in and stay in off the streets tonight, for there is going 
to be trouble," I told my wife and sister-in-law about the con- 


I had not been in three minutes when the shooting began. 
The police and the military came on down the street banging and 
shooting and throwing hand grenades in all directions. We had 
just been drinking some tea that was standing there, and I said, 
"We had better get out of the way. Here they come." I got the 
two little children, and we went upstairs. And I said to the 
children, "You had better lie next to the walls." I do not need 
to tell you how nervous those children were. They were shaking 
so that I got to shaking myself. After they got on down the 
street I went downstairs and got some souvenirs. (Takes object 
from pocket.) 

Q. Senator Walsh: What is it, for the sake of the record? 

A. A steel bullet. (Exhibits bullet to Commission.) 

After they passed down the street — this Considine place, as 1 
have stated, is about fifty or sixty yards from us on the left-hand 
side of the street, a thatched house, — they took a big long candle 
and they lit it. I got up and looked out of the window as they 
passed. They just took this candle and held it under the roof 
of the house until it was all afire. They went on down the street, 
firing and shooting and shouting, until about twelve-thirty or one. 

Q. Senator Walsh: From when? 

A. From seven o'clock until about one. 


At one o'clock — in the other half of the cottage there is a 
family named O'Briens. They vacated at some part of the even- 
ing, the time I do not know. The military went in and searched 
the house. I understand that one of the young O'Briens was in 
sympathy with the Sinn Fein movement. The cottages are only 
divided by partitions. I was in the part of the upstairs near 
the O'Briens' cottage. My Missus told me that the soldiers were 
on the roof. I said, "They are on the roof taking observations, 
the same as ourselves." She said she smelled rags burning. I 
said it was the Considine house, because the wind was westerly and 
we were getting the smell of their burning. The Missus said it 
was not. At one or one-twenty the Missus got up and pulled the 
blinds back, and the flames were coming up to the window. She 
said, "My God, I told you the house was on fire!" I got out of 
bed and told her to get the children out, and ran down with an 
armful of clothes for the children, and threw them over the wall 


that divides the field from the house, and told her to bring the 
children down there. I looked up at the cottage, and there was a 
hole just about as big as that skylight (indicating skylight in room) 
burning in the roof. I ran back and said, "We have no time to 
fool around here. Take what you have and get out of here. I 
prefer to be shot than to be burned to death." They were still 
shooting down the street. So they got out of there and went 
back in the field. The Missus got dressed and dressed the children. 

After that a bit they ceased shooting for a time. Some kind 
neighbors came to our assistance, and we said that if we had a 
ladder and some buckets we could save part of the cottage. Mr. 
Maloney, who lives across the street, got a ladder, and some of the 
men got some buckets, and we succeeded in saving the biggest part 
of the cottage. At six o'clock that morning I got hold of a car 
to convey my baggage and the children out of town, and about 
ten o'clock I left myself. Then I went to a place where my wife's 
people live. 

Q. Senator Walsh: In another town? 

A. It is in the country. 

Q. How many houses were burned? 

A. Two that night, Senator. 

Q. Anybody shot? 

A. Nobody shot, Senator. The only thing was the beating that 
that priest got that evening. 


Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Did they injure his property? 

A. 'Well, that happened next day. They came down the next 
day and asked Mrs. MacDonald, the woman who owns the property, 
if any of the furniture belonged to her. She said no. They took 
the entire furniture, with the exception of a wardrobe that was 
too heavy to pack downstairs, and packed it out to the middle 
of the street and set fire to it. And they said they were only sorry 
that they did not have that bloody bastard, as they called the priest, 
to put him on top of it. 

The following night — that would be October eighth — they went 
out to the postoffice, and the postoffice and the house next to it, 
they set fire to both of those, and burned a lot of hay that was 
in the field back of it. And about two hundred yards in the field 
there was a man named MacCullough (?), and they burned his 
house and all the outhouses and two big stacks of oats. They 


burned everything he had but a little house covered with galvan- 
ized iron, which I dare say they could not burn. 

Q. How large a town is this, Mr. Guilfoil? 

A. Two or three hundred. 

Q. When did you leave Ireland? 

A. I left Ireland the twenty-first of October on the steamer 

Q. What is your home town, Mr. Guilfoil? 

A. Pittsburgh. 


Q. Commissioner Addams: I would like to ask you about the 
killing of the policemen at the postoffice. There were two killed? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you get any information about why they had been 

A. The only information I received as to that was that it must 
have been done by the Irish Republican Army. There were six 
of those policemen. The two that they killed they took all their 
arms and ammunition from them. The papers there brought it 
out about the unscrupulous way in which they robbed the bodies. 
I was there when they put the bodies into carts, and the officer 
took the men's watches and pocketbooks, and gave Stanley's to his 
wife, who was there. The other one was a sergeant, Sergeant 
Dougherty. They did not rob them of these. 

Q. Chairman Howe: What statement did they give as to why 
they were killed? 

A. The statement was made that they were shot and robbed. 

Q. Senator Walsh: But he asked you what made these men 
marked men, — why were they killed? 

A. There was one of them, Stanley, he came up to Mrs. Mc- 
Donough's public house and pulled out a forty-four revolver, and 
he said, "If I only had a few more like these I would damn soon 
finish the Republican Army." His wife said after he was dead 
that life was miserable anyway with him, for all he talked about 
was murder for the last four or five months. 

Q. Senator Walsh: I would like to have you develop any 
facts or evidence that you have as to what these men had done 
to interfere with the happiness and peace and good order of these 
people before they were shot. 

The Witness: These policemen? 


Senator Walsh: Yes. 

A. Nothing that I know of further. 

Q. Did you hear anything as to why the members of the Re- 
publican Army were going to shoot them, or did shoot them? 

A. The only thing I heard around there was that the Sinn 
Fein, the Republican Army, was trying to take those barracks just 
a week before I arrived in that town. That was one of their moves, 
as Miss MacSwiney said. They had tried to take those barracks 
a w r eek before I came, but did not succeed in doing so. There 
is a little town about six miles from there, Scariff; they started 
on that barracks on Saturday, the eighteenth of September, I think. 
There was about three hundred of the Irish Republican Army 
came there that night, but they did not succeed in taking that 
barracks. The second or third day after that the military or 
police evacuated and went to a town named Killaloe, about eight 
miles away. And the day after that the Irish Republican Army 
came there and tore the barracks down. 


There were some young fellows, Rogers, a cousin of mine, Mac- 
Mahan, Eagan, and Gildan (?), these four young fellows were 
on the run. They were down at a town named Whitegate about 
eight miles from Scariff. The town of Killaloe is about eight 
or nine miles below Scariff. The River Shannon comes in be- 
tween and divides those towns. They make an angle like this 
I indicating an acute angle). The miltary went across the river in 
a boat and arrested all four of these young fellows, and two others 
who owned the house in which they were living. They took them 
across the river, and not through their own town, and the four 
of them were shot on the Killaloe Bridge. There is quite a depth 
of water there, and right in the middle of the bridge is where they 
were shot. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What date? 

A. I have the papers here. 

Q. Did this happen before you left Ireland? 

A. No, these men were shot since. 

Q. Were these men shot before or after the shooting of the 

A. After. This happened about the fifteenth or sixteenth. The 
paper is dated the nineteenth. The military tried to make it out 
that these men were shot trying to escape, but the paper brings it 


out that these men could not have tried to escape in the middle 
of the bridge, because the channel is too deep there, and they 
were handcuffed. 

Q. Were the bodies found? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Handcuffed when they were found? 

A. No, the military took their bodies to their barracks and 
would not let the people of the village see them after they had 
them in there. 

Q. How long had they been pursuing them? 

A. These young fellows who were arrested had been on the 
run since September, 1918. 

Q. Mr. Malone: Mr. Guilfoil, with a Republican Army of 
three hundred around there, there must be a state of war. 

A. 0, yes. 

Q. Were these young men armed? 

A. Yes. 


Q. Were the civilians in the village armed? 

A. 0, no. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: But no one was killed in the town? 

A. Five were later injured, I understand since leaving there. 
I got some literature from there since I left, and practically the 
entire section of the country has been wiped out, their homes and 
corn stacks and hay burned. Any persons who proclaim any 
sympathy with the Irish Republic have their homes and property 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Where did this bullet (indicating ex- 
hibit) enter your home? 

A. Right by the window down the hallway. 

Q. So that if you had been down there, you might have been 

A. Yes, if I happened to be sitting at the table, it would have 
been the perfect range, the perfect range for hitting me. 


There's one thing more. I was in Cork on the seventeenth, the 
eighteenth, and nineteenth of October. I went from there to 
Queenstown to sail on the Celtic on the twenty-first. There was 
one of the hunger strikers there named Fitzgerald, and he died 


there in prison. And at his funeral my little boys were walking 
up the streets, and they wanted two little American flags to pin 
on their coats. And I went into a store there and got them some. 
At the funeral there was the coffin coming up the street, and the 
military on both sides of the coffin, which was covered with 
wreaths of green, white, and gold, the Sinn Fein colors, and the 
Sinn Fein flag. And as they passed the Windsor Hotel, where I 
was staying at — (It is on what street, Miss MacSwiney? ) 

Miss MacSwiney: On MacCurtain Street. 

The Witness: As they passed the hotel the military took their 
bayonets and threw these wreaths off the hearse. Anything more 
horrible I never want to see than an armed military body fol- 
lowing a coffin. The friends wanted to have a hundred march 
after the coffin, but the authorities said that any formation would 
not be tolerated by the British officials. They followed that cof- 
fin with rifles and machine guns all the way out to the cemetery. 
* Q. Senator Walsh: Did they interfere with the boys with the 
American flags? 

A. No. There was a piece in one of the Cork papers about 
American flags being displayed at the funeral. The distance that 
the boys walked along there was about fifty or sixty yards. As 
soon as I saw the military coming along, I took the boys and 
got away from there, for I thought there might be trouble. 

Q. But they did not interfere with the funeral? 

A. No. They followed the coffin out to the cemetery and 
stood around there until it was over. 


Q. Commissioner Addams: I would like to go back to this 
village. There were barracks there attacked by three hundred of 
the Republican Army? 

A. Yes, that was on September eighteenth. 

Q. A week later — a few weeks later, these reprisals were made 
and these young men were taken out and shot? 

A. Yes, ma'am. 

Q. What was the attitude of the countryside? Were they hos- 
tile to the Irish Army coming in and stirring up the British to 
make trouble, or did they sympathize with them? 

A. The attitude of the people was that since the British had 
placed the military there — they are bringing them in by the thou- 
sands — the people had a right to rise against him. 


Q. But the people of the countryside, did they feel that the 
Irish Army was right in taking the barracks when it brought re- 
prisals on civilians? 

A. yes, indeed. The whole countryside was with them. 

Q. Senator Walsh: That is, that they are with the Republican 
form of government, and they are standing behind what they do 
in the way of warfare? 

A. Yes, 0, yes. 

The Commission: That is all. Thank you very much. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 


Chairman Howe: Proceed, Mr. Malone, please. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: What is your full name please? 

A. Daniel Francis Crowley. 


Q. Where were you b< 

A. I was born at Bohocoglin, County Kerry, Ireland. 

Q. How old are you? A. Twenty -three years. 

Q. When did you enlist in the Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A. I enlisted in March, 1916. I presented my name for ap- 
pointment in March, 1916, and I was called out on the third of 
July, 1917.' 


Q. And after you were called out, where did you go for train- 

A. To the Phoenix Park Barracks in Dublin. 

Q. How long did you remain there? 

A. I remained there until the eighteenth of January, 1918. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Why not bring out how long he has 
been connected with the Royal Irish Constabulary? When did 
he resign? 

Mr. D. F. Malone: yes. How long were you connected with 
the R. I.C.? 

A. I tendered my resignation on the first day of June last. 

Senator Walsh: Very good. Now go back to the training. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: While at this Phoenix Park Training 
Camp, what training did you receive? 


A. Training in infantry drill, gymnastics, and ordinary police 

Q. Did you have bayonet practice? A. Just a little. 

Q. How much? 

A. Something about five or six days' practice altogether. 

Q. Were you trained in the use of hand grenades and bombs? 

A. That was in March, 1919. It was in March of this year 
that I was trained in the use of bombs. 

Q. So that training vou got at a later period? 

A. Yes. 

Q. The trading you got at the Phoenix Park Camp was train- 
ing for a policeman? Is that correct? 

A. Yes, training for a policeman. 

Q. What were the instructions given you, very generally and 
very briefly, with regard to the use of firearms? 

A. The instructions I was given when I was trained in Dublin 
was that a policeman should never resort to the use of firearms 
at all, except in case he was attacked. 

Q. Except in self-defense? A. Yes. 

Q. What firearms were you equipped with? 

A. A carbine, like what is called a revolver. 

Q. A carbine or revolver, and what else? A. A sword. 

Q. A sword? A. Yes. 


Q. Was that equipment added to later on? 

A. I beg your pardon. 

Q. Were you given any additional equipment later, during 
those three years? 

A. Well, later on we were supplied with bombs and hand 
grenades and rockets. 

Q. And you said you were trained in the use of these bombs and 
hand grenades in March, 1919? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And you had been in the service then for three years? 

A. Two years. 

Q. What was your home? A. County Clare. 

Q. When you were assigned to police duty, you were assigned 
to police duties there? 

A. No, I was sent to County Tipperary. 

Q. Is there a rule in the Royal Irish Constabulary with re- 
gard to the assignment of men for service in their own counties? 


A. No, you cannot serve in your native county. 

Q. Can you serve in counties neighboring your own county? 

A. Well, on some occasions you can. 

Q. It depends upon the circumstances? A. Yes. 

Q. What was your first post? 

A. My first post was Clogheen, County Tipperary. 

Q. Did you serve there throughout your three years? 

A. Yes, I served in this district while I was there. 

Q. When you say that district, what do you mean? 

A. I mean that I was stationed about three miles from there 

in a place called Ballylooby. 

Q. And you were stationed in this town? 

A. Yes, and in Clogheen. 

Q. So that you were always within a short radius? 

A. Yes, a short radius. 

Q. Was Clogheen a peaceful city? A. Yes, sir, very. 


Q. Throughout your service as a member of the Royal Irish 
Constabulary, did you ever have to make an arrest or serve a 
warrant there? 

A. No, I never arrested a person there during my time, and 
I never issued a summons against any person. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Develop that a little, will you, Mr. 

Mr. D. F. Malone: Did you ever know of any serious crimes 
committed by any member of the population while you were there? 

A. No, there was no serious crime committed by any member 
of the population. 

Q. Do you remember that incident of petty theft which you 
told me? 

A. yes. Mr. Talbot, the Protestant minister in Clogheen — 
his fishing rod was stolen, and he reported the matter to the police 
sergeant, and the police sergeant could not find his fishing rod 
for him. And then he reported it to the Irish Volunteers, and the 
Irish Volunteers got his fishing rod back for him. And the con- 
sequence was that he said that the police service in Ireland was 
useless, and that the Volunteers were far better. 



Q. What was the religious feeling between the people there? 

A. The religious peace was very great. 

Q. So that you never knew of any disputes between the people 
on matters of religion? A. 0, no. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Did they trade with one another freely? 

A. 0. yes. 

Q. Did they go to each other's houses freely? 

A. 0, yes, sir. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: How many Protestants there? 

A. About thirty Protestants. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did they hold any public offices? 

A. Clogheen being a small place, sir, there was no public office 
there for them. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: How many constables were there in 
the barracks? 

A. Five. Four constables and a sergeant. 

Q. About how many square miles? 

A. About fourteen thousand, covering the district around 

Q. Not fourteen thousand square miles? 

A. Oh, no. Fourteen thousand acres, I mean. 

Q. During the period of three years there were no serious 
crimes committed? A. No. sir; no serious crimes. 

Q. Nothing more serious than the theft of a fishing rod? 

A. Nothing more serious. That is all, sir. 

Q. Mr. Crowley, you said there were about thirty Protestants, 
and there was a Protestant clergyman. And was there a Catholic 
priest for the entire diocese there? 

A. Yes, Father O'Donnelly and two curates. 

Q. What was the relation between the Protestant minister and 
the Catholic priest? 

A. They lived on very friendly terms. 

Q. The population of Clogheen is about six hundred? 

A. Yes, the population is about six hundred. 

Q. And the general area, inclusive of Clogheen? 

A. Including the district of Clogheen, which Clogheen took m, 
I think about two thousand — that is, the surrounding lands which 
went with the village in the police district. 



Q. Do you remember the period of time when Lord Mayor 
MacCurtain of Cork was shot? 

A. Yes, I do. 

Q. Do you know what the orders issued to police immediately 
before and continuing for a time after that murder were? 

A. Yes. The orders issued where I was stationed in Clogheen 
by General Lucas, who commanded the military forces of Cork and 
Tipperary, were that if two police could be spared to go with the 
military, they were to go on an armored car with a machine gun, 
and they were to patrol the country night and day, and every man 
who took a prominent part in the Sinn Fein movement they were 
to stand up in front of his house and turn the machine gun on it. 
In this armored car there were put one hundred twenty cans of 
petrol and also one hundred twenty Mills bombs, and the reason 
for this was that they were for burning houses. That was the orders 
which General Lucas, who was afterwards kidnapped at Fermoy, 
gave in the barracks. If they found a Sinn Feiner, they were to turn 
the machine gun on him. 

Q. Chairman Howe: On him or on his house? 

A. On anything that belonged to him. 

Q. Did you hear these instructions issued yourself? 

A. Yes, I was in the barracks when he issued them. 

Q. Were those general orders carried out? 

A. The military carried them out. I did not, as did also two 
other men who protested against it. I remember that on the night 
of May 21st myself and Constables Kirwan and Galvin — Mr. Galvin 
will also speak here — we were sent out on a night patrol, and two 
Black-and-Tans named Richards and Gillett were with us. And 
about nine o'clock Richards said he wanted us to show him where 
Maurice Walsh and William loseph Condon lived; that he was 
going to shoot them. Condon was chairman of the Clogheen Dis- 
trict Council. The only reason for shooting them was that the 
Sunday before these men had said at a meeting of the Council that 
Clogheen was such a peaceful district that they could well get on 
without the military stationed there. There were one hundred of 
the military stationed there then. It was a peaceful district, and 
so Walsh and Condon protested against such a lot of military 
stationed there. The acts of the military were something dis- 



Q. Describe what you mean by "the acts of the military were 
something disgraceful." 

A. Well, I have seen them stop two girls of the town coming 
to the Rosary at half-past six in the evening, and they said to the 
girls, "Hands up," and knocked them down. And I came to their 
rescue and said, "Stop; they are innocent girls." And I surely 
believe that if I had not been there, they would have been brutally 

Q. What other acts did you witness that make you believe that 
the acts of the military were something disgraceful? 

A. They were so disgraceful that Mr. Talbot, the Protestant 
minister at Clogheen, wrote to Dublin Castle saying that their acts 
and deeds in Clogheen were something shameful, this Devonshire 
regiment, and he got them sent out of the district. 

Q. You said that these Black-and-Tans went out to kill this man 
Walsh and the other man. What did you have to do with it? 

A. They did not know where these two men lived. They only 
wanted me and this man Galvin to show them where these two men 
lived. They would go and shoot them, they said, and bring back 
their ears as evidence to the barracks. We would not show them, 
and turned back to the barracks, and begged Richards to come back 
to the barracks. Richards got behind a blackthorn fence. We 
begged him to come on back with us. He said that if we came 
one step nearer, he would blow our brains out. We went on down 
the road, and when we were only about two hundred yards away, 
he fired several shots at us — when we were only two hundred yards 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Were those men killed afterwards? 

A. No. The next day I went into the village and told Walsh 
and Condon what Richards had done; that he wanted me and Galvin 
to show them where these men lived so that they could shoot them. 
It went out publicly then, what these Black-and-Tans, who were the 
only ones in the barracks, wanted to do. And they heard of it, and 
Gillett pointed his loaded revolver at me three times and wanted 
to shoot me. And I guess they would have shot me, but there was 
an Irish sergeant there, and they were afraid to do it. 

Q. How many Black-and-Tans were there in your barracks? 

A. Just three of them. 

Q. Chairman Howe: And how many of the Royal Irish Con- 

A. There were five, sir. 


Q. Senator Walsh: And one hundred military? 

A. Yes, one hundred military. 

Q. Who controls the Blaek-and-Tans there? 

A. Since March last the Black-and-Tans are under military 

Q. So since March last the Black-and-Tans and the military are 
the same thing? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: You said that Mr. Walsh and Mr. Condon 
were not killed? 

A. No, they are still there. 

Q. Did they not go on the run? 

A. No, they are still in Clogheen. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: I would like to ask about the two 
girls whom the Black-and-Tans commanded to throw up their hands. 
What happened to them? 

A. Well, on this evening, an English soldier and six Black-and- 
Tans shouted at the girls, "Hands up!" and they began to search 
them. And I came on them and said,, "Stop, stop. They are inno- 
cent girls!" 

Q. But you had no proof that they had evil motives. One man 
like yourself could not stop them if they had. 

The Witness: But what right did they have to assault the girls? 

Q. Senator Walsh: But there was no attempt to rape? Their 
clothes were not disheveled? 

A. No, there was no rape. But they were searching them, and 
their clothes were disheveled. 

Commissioner Addams: We have had no testimony of that kind, 
and we want to be positive. 

Mr. D. F. Malone: But the girls were knocked down. 

Commissioner Addams: He did not say they were knocked down, 
but that they were told to throw up their hands. 

The Witness: No; one of them, a Miss Barrett, had fallen down 
in the road. 

Q. Chairman Howe: You were in uniform? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And you knew these men? 

A. Yes, I knew all of them. 

Q. They were stationed in the barracks with you? 

A. Yes, in the same barracks. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: What was the reason for stationing so 
many of the military in a peaceful district like Clogheen? 


A. Well, they were trying to stir the people up, it seems to me. 
Q. So that as far as your business goes, the military there in this 
peaceful district only stirred the people up? 
A. Yes, sir. 


Q. Did you know of any police murders after police had re- 

A. Yes, I know of a Constable Fahey stationed at Adare, in 
County Limerick. The rule of the Government is that a man must 
give from three to six weeks' notice before he can resign. This 
man Fahey was out on duty one day after he had sent in his resig- 
nation. Three Black-and-Tans were with him, and when they came 
back they said that they were attacked by Sinn Feiners and Fahey 
was killed. None of them had been injured, and they had not 
arrested anybody. 

Q. Senator Walsh: By whom was he killed? 

A. They said he was attacked by Sinn Feiners. 

Q. They were safe themselves? 

A. Yes, they were all right. 

Q. Did you see this? 

A. No, sir. 


Q. Commissioner Thomas: You said that this general gave 
orders for the homes and property of Republican sympathizers to 
be destroyed. How many houses and hay ricks were destroyed 
where you were? 

A. Well, none were destroyed around Clogheen. 

Q. None in Clogheen? 

A. No, sir. But there were in other parts of Ireland. 

Q. Why were none destroyed in Clogheen? 

A. Because the people were so quiet there. The people there 
were in favor of the military and police going out of Ireland. They 
were not wanted there. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: This General Lucas, who was kidnapped, 
was treated very well when he was kidnapped, was he not? 

A. I do not know. 

The Commission: That is beyond his knowledge. 

Mr. D. F. Malone: Mr. Chairman, may we get this cleared up to 
answer Mr. Thomas' question? 


Chairman Howe: Yes. 

Mr. D. F. Malone (to Commissioner Thomas) : Did you under- 
stand that the people were not attacked because they were so quiet? 

Commissioner Thomas: Yes; that is, because the people were so 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Do you remember the incident of the raid 
on Mrs. Walsh's home? 

A. Yes, I do. 

Q. Who was Mrs. Walsh? 

A. Mrs. Walsh lived about two and a half miles from Clogheen. 
Her husband died in May last. 

Q. Wait a minute, Mr. Crowley. Had Mrs. Walsh any family? 

A. Yes, she had three little children, the eldest being about ten 

Q. Where did she live? 

A. At Castlegrace. 

Q. What happened? 

A. On different occasions the military would raid her house, 
sometimes at twelve o'clock and sometimes at two. It got so bad 
that she complained to County Inspector Langhorne, the county 
police inspector for the South of Ireland, and he said it was too 
bad, but he could do nothing for her, because the military were not 
under the control of the police inspector. 

Q. The Commissioner: Who carried this on? 

A. The military and the Black-and-Tans. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Why did they raid this house? 

A. Because they suspected that the Volunteers were training 
around there. But they never found anything in the house on any 
of the raids — not anything. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Were you there? 

A. I was there on one occasion, and refused to go into the Walsh 

Q. Did you hear reports about it? 

A. Yes, I heard reports in the barracks when they got back, and 
also heard of it from the Walshs themselves. 


Q. Mr. Malone: Do the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Black- 
and-Tans get along very well together? 

A. No, they do not. Inspector General Smith, Deputy Inspector 
Geddis, Mr. Pierce, and several others, and five hundred men of 
the ranks, tendered their resignations from the force during April 


and May because of the present conditions that are disgracing the 

Q. Out of how many? 

A. Out of nine thousand men. 

Q. The Royal Irish Constabulary arc not used any more alone 

A. The R. I. C. are not used to carry out these military orders. 
The Black-and-Tans do that. 

Q. Mr. Crowley, after you resigned, were any attempts made 
against your life? 

A. Yes, after I tendered my resignation, the Black-and-Tans put 
loaded revolvers up and backed me up there against the walls and 
threatened to shoot me. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: For what reason? 

A. Because I had told Mr. Walsh and Condon that they were 
going to shoot them. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Where were these Black-and-Tans from, 
from England? 

A. Yes, from England; most all ex-army men. 

Q. Were they officers from the ranks, or of the office class? 

A. Most of them were from the ranks, or petty officers. 

Q. Mr. Malone: Why did you tender your resignation from the 
Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A. I tendered my resignation from the Constabulary because of 
the misgovernment of the English in Ireland. 


Q. Do you remember the incident at Listowel Barracks, in 
County Kerry, when Colonel Smyth made an address to the mem- 
bers of the R. I. C? 

A. Yes, a friend of mine was one of the Constabulary there. 
Colonel Smyth was there. He had just come over from Germany, 
from the Army of Occupation. There were eighteen or twenty of 
the Constabulary there, and Colonel Smyth told them that they 
were going to get plenty of soldiers from England to crush out 
Sinn Fein, and that three of them were to remain in the Listowel 
barracks as guides for the soldiers, and the rest were to go to the 
outlying barracks and point out Sinn Feiners to the military, and 
every man who took part in the Sinn Fein movement was to be shot 
at sight. 


Q. Senator Walsh: When was that? 

A. That was in April, I think. 1 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: In April, 1920? 

A. April, 1920. 

Q. Just repeat what he said. 

A. Colonel Smyth told the police that they were all going to 
get every assistance from the Government — soldiers and machine 
guns and armored cars and everything they needed — and they were 
to patrol the roads five nights a week; and they were not to confine 
themselves to the roads, but to go across country, and search homes 
wherever they thought arms and munitions were hid. 

Q. You stated what Colonel Smyth said to do to any man who 
was suspected of being of Republican sympathies. 

A. Yes, any man who was suspected of having Sinn Fein sym- 
pathies was to be shot at sight; Colonel Smyth said the more the 
merrier, and that no man would get into any trouble for shooting 
them. He said any man who would not carry out these orders had 
better get off the force. Sergeant Sullivan spoke immediately and 
said that they could tell Colonel Smyth must be an Englishman 
by his talk, and that they would not obey such orders; and he took 
off his coat and cap and belt and laid them on the table. Colonel 
Smyth and the Inspector, O'Shea, ordered him to be arrested for 
causing disaffection in the force, but nineteen of them stood up and 
said if a man touched him, the room would run red with blood. 
The soldiers whom Colonel Smyth had with him came in, but the 
constables got their loaded rifles off the racks, and Colonel Smyth 
and the soldiers went back to Cork. The very next day they all put 
on civilian clothes and left the barracks. 

Q. They all resigned? 

A. Yes, they left the very next day. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Were you in the barracks? 

A. No, but my friend who was there told me about this. That 
Colonel Smyth went to Cork and was shot five days afterwards. 

Q. This Smyth was an officer in the British army? 

A. Yes, sir, he was a colonel. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Was he in the old army, or was he pro- 
moted during the war? 

A. He was promoted during the war. 

1 The actual date of the speech was June 19, 1920. See index, and 
Report of Commission, Appendix "E." 



Q. I would like to ask you what pay the constables received. 

A. The wages were advanced in March, 1919. When I resigned 
we were offered two shillings a day more if we would remain. The 
pay then was twenty pounds a month — in American money, at pres- 
ent rates of exchange, about eighty dollars. 

Q. And keep? 

A. No, no keep. You supply that. 

Q. What was the pay of the Black-and-Tans? 

A. The Black-and-Tans were getting one and seven a day, I 

Q. One pound seven shillings a day? 

A. Yes; that is twenty-seven shillings a day. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Why do you say you think that? 

A. The pay was not made known to the R. I. C. in the barracks. 

Q. Chairman Howe: So that the Black-and-Tans are getting 
about twice what you got? 

A. Well, they were getting seven shillings more a day than we 
would get after the raise. 


Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Mr. Crowley, what can you tell us about 
the destruction of creameries? 

A. Well, 1 remember passing by Kilcommon and Waycross, in 
Tipperary, the day after the creamery there had been destroyed. 
There were thirty-six soldiers and officers who had taken crowbars 
and knocked down the creamery, saying they were looking for arms 
and ammunition. They didn't find any, but they wrecked the 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: When was that? 

A. It was in the end of March or the first of April. 1 

Q. Were fairs and markets prohibited at this time? 
A. Fairs and markets in Tipperary were prohibited for about a 
year, from February, 1919, to the end of March, 1920 — for over 
a year, that is. 

1 The Kilcommon Central Creamery (cooperative) was destroyed April 
10, 1920. Direct personal evidence was given before the County Court 
that the damage was inflicted by military and police. 


Q. What was carried on at these fairs? 

A. The chief purpose of these fairs was that the Irish farmers 
could sell their cattle and butter and their foodstuffs in these mar- 
kets. The government issued a proclamation that fairs and markets 
were not to be held in County Tipperary. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Are they held there now? 

A. They are held there now, but they were not until March. 

Q. Is that general throughout Ireland? 

A. Well, in some counties. The proclamation is on in Cork 
and Dublin and Clare. 

Q. Senator Walsh: How long have the people been denied the 
right to assemble and to meet for public meetings and public dis- 

A. Especially since March, 1919, no meetings have been allowed 
to be held. 

Q. Is that still true? 

A. Yes. If a man wanted to sell his house or farm, he could 
not sell it without a permit— an auction would not be allowed to 
take place. And if he were a Sinn Fein sympathizer, he couldn't 
get the permit. If a hunting match or a football match took place 
without a permit, a party of soldiers would come and drive them 
off the field at the point of the bayonet. 

Q. Since what time? 

A. Since March, 1919. 


Q. Now, in the County of Clare were there any murders of police 
officers or any interference with police officers previous to March, 

A. In the County of Clare? 

Q. Yes. 

A. No, there was not, sir. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: You say, Mr. Crowley, that there 
had been orders to shoot on sight a Sinn Feiner or Republican. 
But that was never done in daylight? 

A. Most of the cases were at night, yes. 

Q. So that they did not carry out that order of shooting with 
machine guns on sight? 

A. Well, they did. The military carried out the order in differ- 
ent places of setting fire to houses. 


Q. Yes. but shooting people on sight was not done. 

A. Not in Clogheen. but it was done in other parts of Ireland. 

Commissioner Addams: We have never had any evidence <>r hear- 
say of that being done. 

Mr. Malone: We have not produced any testimony about that, but 
we can produce testimony ot many instances of that kind. 


Q. Senator Walsh: Did you belong to any Sinn Fein organiza- 
tion while you were a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A. While I was in the R. I. C. I was in favor and sympathy with 
the Irish movement. 

Q. But while you were in the R. I. C. did you belong to any such 
organization ? 

A. No, I didn't. But I belonged to one after I left. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Miss Addams 1 other remark prompts this 
question: Why did you or any Irishmen remain in the Royal Irish 

A. Well, I guess they remain just for their living. That is all. 

Q. Does the fact that they are nearing the time for getting a 
pension, in the ease of the older men long in the service — is that a 

A. Yes, there are men of long service who are waiting now to 
get a pension. If they do not wait they will be losing from the 
English Government about a hundred forty to a hundred fifty 
pounds a year. 


Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Air. Crowley, have you a family? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Why did you leave Ireland? 

A. I was afraid of the Blaek-and-Tans, that they would follow 

Q. You left on account of your health, then? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Mr. D. F. Malone: That is all. 

(The witness was thereupon excused. I 


Chairman Howe: Have you other witnesses from the Royal Irish 

Mr. Malone: Yes, sir; three others. 


Chairman Howe: Proceed, Mr. Malone. 

Q. Mr. Malone: What is your full name, Mr. Tangney? 

A. John Tangney. 

Q. And where were you born? 

A. I was born in Castleisland, County Kerry. 

Q. How old are you? 

A. I am about twenty-five. 

Q. What education have you had? 

A. I was educated in the national schools and at the Christian 

Q. Where are you living now? 

A. New York. 

Q. How long have you been out of Ireland? 

A. Since August. 


Q. When did you join the Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A. I was appointed in October, 1915. 

Q. How long did you remain in the service? 

A. From that date until most of July last. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: I did not get that date. 

A. From the first of October, 1915, to July, 1920. 

Q. Mr. Malone: During that time, where were you stationed? 

A. I was in the southern part of Tipperary. I was temporarily 
stationed at Clonmel, but my permanent station was at Ballylooby. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Is Ballylooby a Tipperary name? 

A. Yes, it is in Tipperary, the southern part of Tipperary. 

Q. Mr. Malone: So that your entire service with the Royal Irish 
Constabulary was in one part of one particular county? 

A. Well, I was in various places for a time, for two or three 
months. I was in Limerick City and Cork City for a time. 

Q. That is just what I wanted to know. Where did you serve 
in different places? 

A. I was in Midstone, County Cork, for a short time, and in 
Cork City for a short while, and in Limerick City; and on two or 
three occasions I was sent to the north of Ireland for duty; but 
that lasted only for about a week at a time. After the Ballylooby 
station was quit, I was at Clogheen. 



Did you hear Mr. Crowley's testimony just now? 

A. Yes, sir, I heard it. 

Q. Where were you trained? 

A. In Phoenix Park Depot, Dublin. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Is that the general training place? 

A. Yes, it was at that time. 

Q. Mr. Malone: How long were you there? 

A. I was six months at that training school. That was the plan. 
If you did not qualify for police duties and the other things you 
were supposed to qualify in at the end of six months — in police 
duties and physical drill, gymnastics — you would be disqualified. 
You might have to spend a short term longer, or they could dis- 
qualify and suspend you and dismiss you at that time. I qualified 
with several hundred others at the end of the six months, and I was 
sent down to Clonmel, in County Tipperary, at that time. 


Q. What were your instructions regarding the use of firearms? 

A. Except there was a personal attack made upon you — that is, 
in self-defense — you were never under any considerations to use 

Q. And what was the first time thereafter — after you had passed 
your training and were an accepted member of the R. I. C. — what 
was the first time or stage at which these orders were changed? 

A. There was no definite order for a change to be made. They 
were changed gradually. Like the members of the force, they were 
changed gradually in the same way. Of course, the police code 
that you had to learn in the training school said that you were 
never under any circumstances to use your firearms except in case 
of personal attack in self-defense. 

Q. What use did the R. I. C. have for firearms in other cases 
than personal attack and self-defense? 

A. For show purposes mainly, until the new orders came. 

Q. Were orders to use these arms for purposes of aggression 
ever issued? 

A. Yes, latterly. They were issued latterly. 

Q. When were the first orders of that kind issued? 

A. The first orders of that kind that came to us from Dublin 
Castle was in October of last year, October, 1919. 

Q. What were those orders? 

A. First, this circular came down from the Castle that political 


prisoners — a batch of political prisoners had escaped from Lincoln 
jail. Their names and descriptions were given in this official docu- 
ment, as it is termed, The Hue and Cry. Their descriptions and 
ages were given. The first order was that they were to be arrested 
if they came within view — within our notice anywhere. That was 
the wording of the first article. They were to be treated in the first 
article just the same as a criminal. Following that article there 
was the receipt of an order they called a confidential article by 
the sergeant of the station on November fourth, stating that if these 
political prisoners were seen and in case they came within the police 
notice and they offered the slightest resistance, they were to be 
shot dead. 

Q. Chairman Howe: These were political prisoners? 

A. Yes. They named one in particular. I did not know what 
position he held. His name was Mr. Stack. 

Q. His name was specifically mentioned? 

A. Yes. Since I left the force, I found that he was an Irish 
M. P. (Member of Parliament) in the Sinn Fein movement. Of 
course I did not know from The Hue and Cry what position he held. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Now, let me see. Stack was one of the men 
elected in the elections of 1918 to the British Parliament? 

A. Yes, that is right, sir. 

Q. And instead of going to the British Parliament, he went to 
the Irish Parliament? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And he was in prison and escaped? 

A. Yes, he was an escaped prisoner. 


Q. Chairman Howe: Why is it that s-o many men known to be 
on the run in Ireland — with apparently thousands of men on the run 
— why are they not easily apprehended? 

A. Well, I could not answer that question as regards political 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is not the reason that the British soldiers do 
not know them by name, and they would be shooting the first man 
they met, because they are all on the run? 

A. Yes, sir; that is so. 

Q. Mr. Malone: Is it not true that the population is largely on 
the run with them? 


A. Yes, certainly. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Then it would be right to say that the 
population of Ireland protects these men on the run? 

A. Oh, yes, absolutely. Since the inception of the Sinn Fein 
movement — as the Irish Government officially puts it, since 1918 — 
never have I heard anyone, even unconnected with the Sinn Fein 
movement, uttering a word about them in the Sinn Fein movement 
who are wanted. 

Q. Then the people do not give information about them, or give 
them up? 

A. No, no. There was thousands of pounds offered for informa- 
tion for their arrest, but it was all fruitless. None were ever given 
up, or information forwarded. 

Q. It was fruitless? 

A. It was fruitless. There was one case in the King's Bench 
court in Dublin City where a man gave information about the kill- 
ing of a policeman; and the judge from the bench called the in- 
former a liar in the same breath. 

Q. That is the only case you ever heard of? 

A. It is the only case I ever heard of. In our own barracks I 
had to post up notices offering a reward of five to six hundred 
pounds for anyone who would go into the barracks and give secret 
information about the location of certain prisoners. But that was 

Q. Chairman Howe: Is it not true that there are people still in 
Ireland who will come forward and give information leading to 
the arrest of these men who are wanted? 

A. Well, that is the information I have to offer. Even with 
these large sums, the people will not give the information. 

Q. And that explains the comparative immunity of these men 
who are on the run — why they can go from house to house with 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How about the R. I. C? Do they help the British Govern- 
ment in apprehending these men? 

A. Certainly, they did. They did. 

Q. Are their sympathies with their jobs or with Ireland? 

A. They haven't very much of their old jobs left to them. The 
only thing that you had to do as a policeman since 1918 was to lead 
the military around and point out the men they wanted to get, or 
to follow up the Sinn Fein prisoners. 

Q. But the constables did perform their duties? 

A. That is the only duty left for them to do. I said since 1918, 


because that was when the orders changing the police code were 
given me. 

Q. But the R. I. C. still do their work? 

A. Yes, that is all they can do. 

Q. Senator Walsh: The reason that these men avoid arrest is 
that they can go from one village to another and no one will betray 

A. There is not one single case where the Irish people have 
betrayed men on the run. 

Q. Chairman Howe: May I ask Miss MacSwiney if that is her 
experience too? 

A. Miss MacSwiney: Oh, yes, certainly; the Irish people will 
not inform. 

Q. No informers? A. No informers. 

Q. Mr. Malone: Do you remember the orders issued by General 
Deasey? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. For instance, when did the military first come to police this 
section in Tipperary when you were a member of the force? When 
did they begin to come? 

A. Not actively until the beginning of this year. 

Q. When did they come in large numbers, before or after the 
murder of the Lord Mayor of Cork? 

A. It might coincide that they came exactly then, but they came 
some time before and about the same date. Of course they were 
spread throughout the whole southern part of Ireland at that time. 

Q. Who was General Deasey? 

A. He was a divisional commissioner appointed for the southern 
province of Munster. He had control of the military and police. 

Q. He was a British general? 

A. Yes, he was a brigadier general. He held one of the highest 
ranks in the army, that of a brigadier general. 

Q. When did he come to Ireland? 

A. In March of last year he was appointed. 

Q. In March, 1919? 

A. Yes, March, 1919. His business was making occasional tours 
of the barracks and the instruction and inspection of the men, par- 
ticularly those of this new force known as the Black-and-Tans. He 
was on a special conference with them. 


Q. Mr. Malone: Before we get to the orders, when did this new 
force, the Black-and-Tans, come to Ireland? 

A. The first that I saw was in March, and the first that came 
to the barracks where I was stationed was in April. 


Q. Chairman Howe: 1920? 

A. 1920, yes. Of course I saw them going through the county, 
but the first that came to our barracks was in April. 

Q. How did they differ from the police? Were they trained? 

A. Yes, as regards military work, they were; but as regards 
police duties, they had nothing like that. They trained them in a 
special training school in County Kildare, while our training was 
in Phoenix Park in Dublin. It took us six months, and most of them 
got through their training in six days. 

Q. Were they efficient in their duties? 

A. They absolutely knew nothing about police duties. On one 
occasion there was a county inspector whose duty it was to visit the 
barracks. He was trying to instruct these fellows, and we were all 
in the barracks, for we had to go to school to him. And he asked 
this fellow what was his power of arrest, and he said he didn't 
know. He tried to make it simpler to him. He said, "If you see 
a man on the street, and you ask him to give you his name and 
address, and he refuses, what would you do?" And this Black-and- 
Tan said, "If I met a man on the street and asked him his name 
and address, and he refused, I would lift him right under the jaw, 
and the next thing I would use my bayonet. That is what I would 
do to the man." 


Q. Now tell us about General Deasey. What were his orders? 

A. The original orders were issued in May. 

Q. 1920? A. 1920. 

Q. Just tell us what these orders were. 

A. These orders were that all policemen should go to mass — it 
mentioned Roman Catholics particularly — that they were to go to 
mass in formation. The two in front were to take revolvers and 
the last two were to take rifles. The revolvers were to be worn 
with lanyards. The two with rifles were to keep their rifles at the 
ready with bullets in the breech until mass was over. And when 
mass was over they were to march through the crowds the same way. 
And if there was any hostility shown, they were to shoot. That 
was the general tenor of the orders. It might not be the exact 

Q. Senator Walsh: Do I understand that these military officers 
were up in front of the church standing with drawn rifles? 

A. Yes, sir, ready to fire. 

Q. Was it for self-protection during the service, or was it to 
preserve order in the church during divine services? 


A. It did not state- that it was for self-preservation. 

Q. What did it state it was for? 

A. Anybody who read the order could see that it was to try and 
goad the people on. And more than that, it related particularly 
to the R. C.'s— that is, the Roman Catholics. 

Q. Was that for every religious service? 

A. Just for the Roman Catholic services. 

Q. I know, but was this order for these men to go to every 
service that way, or was it for them to go only when they went 
themselves to a service? 

A. I do not understand you, sir. 

Q. We are trying to find out if this order was framed so that 
when Catholic members of the Royal Irish Constabulary went to 
divine services they should go in a certain way as a protection to 
themselves, or whether it was an order for them to go to divine 
services whenever they were held, so that the people should see them 
and know that they were there. 

A. That was the order, and anybody reading it would think that 
that would be what they meant by attending services with drawn 
rifles. It was to terrify people, it seemed to me. 

Q. But if there were two services in the same day, were they 
to go to both services? 

A. Four of them were to go to one service and four to the other. 
They were, if possible, to attend every service. 

Senator Walsh : That is what I was trying to get at. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Did they attend Protestant services also? 

A. Oh, no, sir. 

Q. Did they stand in front of the church with drawn guns 
for self -protection? 

A. Oh, no, sir. They would have been safer behind. If any- 
body had wanted to shoot them, they only made targets out of 
themselves by standing in the front of the church. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Whose orders were these? 

A. General Deasey's orders. 


Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Was there another order? 

A. Yes, that was in the barracks. There were six Black-and- 
Tans present when General Deasey came to the barracks, and he 
was questioning them about what they knew about Sinn Feiners 
and the movement that was going on in the southern part of the 


country. And he said that in case they were able to identify a 
person with Sinn Fein sympathies passing the barracks or going 
near the barracks, to bayonet him and not to waste good powder 
on him, but to just bayonet him. 

Q. Senator Walsh : Was that before the raids were made on the 

A. That was in May or June of this year. 

Q. But there were many raids made on barracks. 

A. They were not raided there then. 

Q. In that locality? 

A. No, there were no raids in that locality- It was uncalled for 
in that locality. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: There were no raids on the barrack 
in which you were stationed? 

A. No, there were none whatever. It was a most peaceful 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Now tell us about the feis incident. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: I would like to ask you whether, at 
the time when this order was given about the squads of police going 
to church under arms, there had been any disturbances in any of 
the parish churches? 

A. No, there had never been. There had never been in any of 
the churches with which I am acquainted. 

Q. There had been no disturbances? 

A. None whatever. 

Q. Senator Walsh: It was to terrify the people? 

A. Yes, anybody who read the order would see that. It was to 
terrify the people. Redman and Foley were the first Black-and- 
Tans that came to the Ballyporeen barracks, and they had special 
instructions given to them in the office apart from the rest of us. 
None of those fellows used to go to any service, although they were 
supposed to be Protestants. In fact, on one occasion the sergeant 
told them that it was in the code — in the police regulations — that 
they should attend whatever service they belonged to, and one of 
them said that if he mentioned service again he would send him 
to a place where he could not go to any service. When the inspec- 
tor came, he used to take them upstairs to the sergeant's office, apart 
from us, and have a special conference with them. After this order 
was issued by General Deasey, I noticed from my own observations 
that during service, while the four men were at service in the Cath- 
olic church, none of them left the barracks or stirred from the inside 
of it. That was the first Sunday that the order came into effect, 
and the Roman Catholics had to so to service or else resign. Then 


the inspector had the conference with them, and on the next Sunday 
one of them would go by the Catholic church occasionally to see 
if there was any trouble. And then they had these bombs — a couple 
of hundred bombs in the barracks. 

Q. So that they held these men at the barracks in reserve? 

A. Yes, they held these six men in reserve in the barracks during 
the service. My idea was that if anything turned up at service, they 
could pounce upon them with the bombs and rifles loaded. 

Q. Tell me this: this order that was issued about attending mass 
was a secret order? Was it not the order that the sergeant showed 

A. Yes, yes; this was the one that the sergeant showed me. It 
was a confidential order, always kept locked up. But the sergeant, 
who was a Catholic, showed it to me. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Were there any orders about interfering with 
the preacher? 

A. No, none at all. 


Q. Mr. Malone: Mr. Tangney, will you go on and tell about 
this feis incident? 

A. That happened in June, 1918. I was stationed at Ballylooby 
at the time. On Saturday night an order came that two men would 
proceed fully armed and equipped to Tipperary town. We pro- 
ceeded there, and when we collected there, there were about fifty 
police. We were put in the military barracks and billeted there for 
the night. The morning after, we proceeded to the regular police 
barracks in the town. We were marched. We got no definite orders 
of what our duties would be after we left the barracks until Sunday 
morning. Then we were lined up in the barrack square, and there 
was an inspector there named Lowndes. He was what was known 
as a special county inspector, sent to Tipperary County to investi- 
gate what they call crimes. 

Q. A plain-clothes man? 

A. Yes, in civilian clothes. This morning he addressed us in the 
back yard of the barrack square, and said that we had come for 
duty. We thought it was a declaration of war of some kind. He 
said there was going to be a feis — that is, a country gathering where 
there is Irish dancing and Irish music and the like — there was going 
to be a feis in Lisvarrinane, some three miles from there. He said, 
"The military authorities have forbidden this feis to take place, 
and it is not going to be held; but from information that we have 


received, the people are going to hold it anyway. But we are going 
to put it down. And any man who is not willing to do his duty 
this day had better drop out of the ranks." No man said anything, 
so we lined up in military ranks and proceeded out on the streets, 
and there were five military lorries out there, and we got into the 
lorries. There were two armored cars — not tanks, but armored cars, 
with machine guns, that went along too. 

We proceeded to Lisvarrinane, this village where the feis was to 
be held; and the people coming along from mass, at the sight of 
these lorries and the military and the police and all the other war 
material, fled in terror like bees. Horses went away from their 
owners' hands and jumped into side ditches, taking carts, passen- 
gers, and all. When finally we arrived in the village there were 
certain police tolled off to assist the military. Their orders were 
if they saw anybody going toward the village, they were to turn 
them back, and fire on them if it was necessary to turn them back. 

Q. Mr. Tangney, I think it will hasten matters if you will just 
tell what you saw happen after you got there — what you had to do. 


A. That was one thing. The military were divided up. Well, 
then, this County Inspector Lowndes had the orders, and he ad- 
journed to an adjoining saloon and had a drink, and two young 
military officers, who were in charge of the military party, adjourned 
to the place with him and got stupidly drunk. 

Q. So that the three officers in charge of this party were drunk? 

A. Yes, sir; all three were drunk. There were some Irish ter- 
riers outside the saloon door, and the officers took these dogs and 
threw them at each other, and tried to get them to fight. "Yes," 
they said, "we will have to put the dogs to fight, for the Irish dogs 
will not come out and fight us." 

Q. What's that? Will you repeat that whole statement? 

A. They said, "We will have to put the dogs to fight, for the 
Irish dogs will not come out and fight us." Well, we went home, 
and the military were flashing revolvers and yelling all the way 

Q. Senator Walsh: What is that, flashing? 

A. Firing, firing their revolvers. I myself had to come to a 
soldier who was stupidly drunk and take a revolver out of his hand. 
He was stupidly drunk. 

Q. Mr. Malone: Was that all there was to that particular inci- 

A. Yes, that is all. 


Q. Senator Walsh : Now, wait a moment, Mr. Malone. What 
had taken place in that village previous to that night which could 
he in any way advanced as a reason or excuse for this military 

Q. Mr. Malone: What was the reason given lor this raid'.'' 

A. Nothing, except that this feis was advertised to he held. 

Q. Was it held? 

A. Oh, no, it was not. 

Q. Senator Walsh: And this military expedition broke it up? 

A. Oh, yes; they would have broken it up if it had been held. 
But the people did not hold it after the military said they couldn't. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Do you know of any other feis or celebra- 
tions broken up? 

A. Yes, they were broken up. Previous to that it was the com- 
mon practice all over the country to hold them, and they have been 
broken up. 

Q. This was in 1918? 

A. Yes, in 1918. 

Q. Was it more or less a general custom to break them up? 

A. Yes, in 1918 it was quite general. 

Q. Are they being held now? 

A. Well, I don't know whether they are being held this summer 
or not. 


Q. Mr. Malone: Mr. Witness, did you ever see any fights be- 
tween the Black-and-Tans? 

A. Yes, sir, I did on several occasions. In the barracks where 
I was stationed there were six of them. On two occasions the whole 
six of them turned out of the barracks and went up town and — of 
course they always had plenty of money — and they came back 
stupidly drunk. They were the lowest type of humanity. The first 
order they gave when they got back was to "clear the room." That 
was the day room. They told the sergeant l^o get out, and he did 
get out. I was supposed to be in charge of the barracks that time, 
and I could not go out. I and another man, Mr. Galvin — 

Q. Who is that? 

A. Mr. Galvin, who is here. After that they got the shotguns 
that were in the racks and loaded them. They did not actually fire 
any shots because I took one of the shotguns away from them and 
Galvin took the other. And they then got the butts of rifles — they 
did not have time to load them. And when they got through I had 


to mop up the blood from the floor of the room. They were fighting 
one another like idiots. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Like what? 

A. Like idiots. They were fighting like wild men, they were 
that drunk. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Do you know of any fights between Black- 
and-Tans. or between the Black-and-Tans and the Royal Irish Con- 
stabulary, which have resulted in the deaths either of Black-and- 
Tans or of R. I. C? 

A. Well, I was not a witness to any of them, but I do know of 
one that was actually true — an occurrence in the city of Dublin, 
where one of them, on the pretext of cleaning his rifle, shot the 
sergeant in charge of the station. 

Q. The point I wish to make is that there were fights between 
the R. I. C. and the Black-and-Tans, and fights between the Black- 
and-Tans themselves. 

A. Oh, certainly. The time when the Black-and-Tans came to 
the barracks, the R. I. C. hardly spoke to them. Of course they 
wanted to get information from some of the men. They wanted 
them to point out people and houses and the like. 


Q. Will you state when you resigned, and your reasons for 

A. I resigned the first of July. 

Q. When? 

A. 1920, the present year. I sent in my resignation on that date, 
and I was to be discharged on the first of August. I was discharged 
a few days before, on the twenty-fourth of July. 

Q. Why did you resign? 

A. I resigned for many reasons. The main reason was that there 
was nothing left for me to do except to leave the military to butcher. 

Q. When you resigned, how long had you been in the service? 

A. About five years, from October, 1915, to July, 1920. 

Q. When you resigned, that meant that you had to sacrifice 
your pension? 

A. Yes, I had to sacrifice that. 

Q. Is there a pension? 

A. Yes, certainly; you get three-fourths of the annual pay as a 

Mr. D. F. Malone: That is all. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was there a rule or an order in Ireland in 


June, 1918, against people assembling together for fairs or public 

A. In 1918? 

Q. Yes. 

A. In certain parts there was. 

Q. Was there in this place where you and the military authori- 
ties went out to break up the meeting? 

A. Oh, no; there was no order at that time. 

Q. So that there was no apparent violation of law by the people 
advertising that they were to have this meeting? 

A. None whatever. 


Q. Chairman Howe: The R. I. C. were almost wholly Irishmen? 

A. Yes, they were, almost all of them. 

Q. Wholly recruited from Ireland? A. Yes. 

Q. The Black-and-Tans were wholly recruited from England? 

A. Yes, every one of them. 

Q. Did the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Black-and-Tans 
fraternize together? Did they associate together in a friendly sort 
of way? 

A. Oh, no; they were roughnecks. 

Q. That was generally true — the R. I. C. had nothing to do with 
the Black-and-Tans? 

A. Oh, I would not say that they had nothing to do with them, 
but that they had no friendship for them, and they had nothing 
more to do with them than necessary. 

Mr. D. F. Malone: That is all. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 


Mr. D. F. Malone: Mrs. Murphy, please. 

Q. Mrs. Murphy, where were you born? 

A. In New Ross, County Wexford, Ireland. 

Q. What was your education? 

A. In the national schools, sir. 

Q. Did you attend any other than the national schools? 

A. Yes, sir; I went to a boarding school in County Sligo for two 

Q. Is your husband alive? 

A. Yes, sir. 


Q. Is he an American citizen? 

A. No, sir, he is not, sir. 

Q. When did he first come to this country? 

A. Seven years ago. 

Q. Did you come at that same time? 

A. Four years next February, sir. 

Q. How many children have you? 

A. Just the one, sir. 

Q. Michael? 

A. Yes, Michael. 

Q. Did you visit Ireland during the past year? 

A. Yes, sir, I was a year and three months in Ireland. 

Q. Why did you go to Ireland? 

A. To benefit my health, sir. 

Q. And when you were in Ireland, where did you stay? 

A. At my home in New Ross. 

Q. Are your parents alive? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And did you stay with them? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What kind of a town is New Ross? 

A. A small town. 

Q. An industrial town? 

A. No, sir, a market town. 

Q. A very peaceful and quiet town? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How large is the population? 

A. I don't know. 

Q. When were the troops, the Black-and-Tans, sent to New Ross? 

A. Last Easter, sir. 

Q. That would be 1920? 

A. 1920. 


Q. And when was the curfew law put into effect? 

A. Last August in New Ross, sir. 

Q. And you were there at the time? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you know whether or not any persons were shot for 
violations of the curfew order? 

A. No, sir; not that I know of. 

Q. Do you remember about the killing of the little girl? 


A. She was not killed; she was shot, sir. 

Q. Now, tell the Commission about that. 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Senator Walsh: When did this happen? 

A. That happened about the eighth of September. 

Q. Did you witness it? 

A. I did, sir. The little girl was sent out by her mother on — 

Q. What was her name? 

A. Lillie Furlong. 

Q. How old was she? 

A. About eight. The little girl did not know about the curfew- 
law, and the mother sent her out on an errand, and the Black-and- 
Tans called to her to stop. She was so scared that she began to 
run, and they fired, and she was shot in the back. She has been in 
the infirmary since. 

Q. Senator Walsh: She has been where? 

A. In the infirmary. 

Q. Did you know the mother of the child? 

A. I did, sir. 

Q. How did it happen that the mother did not know that there 
was a curfew law? 

A. They were after some boys on the run, but she did not know 
about that. 

Q. But why did she not know about the curfew law? Could she 
not read? 

A. She could, sir. But the curfew law was usually ten o'clock, 
but on this particular night it was nine o'clock, and the mother did 
not know it. They had put it on an hour early because they were 
after these boys on the run. 


Q. Mr. Malone: What other experiences have you had with the 

A. About three nights before I left Ireland, I was saying good- 
bye to some friends, and it was about half ten; and I met an officer 
and some Back-and-Tans as I was going home, and they told me to 
put up my hands, and I said I could not, because I could not lay 
the baby down, and they said I must; and I told them I could not 
on account of the baby, but that they could search me, and they did. 
They tore open my clothes and searched me while I held the baby 
in my arms. And they got through and did not find anything. It 


was about an hour afterwards when 1 got home. 1 really don't 
know how I got home. And 1 was all wet. 

Q. It was raining? A. Yes, it was raining very much. 

Q. I suppose that they searched the baby for firearms? 

A. Oh, ves, they did. They opened his clothes and searched him. 

Q. Were they gentle and considerate about it? 

A. No, sir, they were not. They were very rough, sir, and when 
they got through they pushed me into the door. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Were you on the street? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And they pushed you into what door? 

A. They pushed me into the door of the hardware store. 

Q. Chairman Howe: On the street of the village? A. Yes. sir. 

Q. Senator Walsh: About that little girl who was shot, that 
child of eight years: how badly was she injured? 

A. The mother said that she w r as shot in the spine. 

Q. It was very serious, then? 

A. Yes, sir. The mother said she might be injured for life. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Will you please state your full name, Mrs. 
Murphy? A. Mrs. Anna Murphy. 

Q. And your address? A. 348 West 18th Street, New York. 


Q. Mr. Malone: Mrs. Murphy, can you describe what the condi- 
tions are in Ireland today, as you observed them and know them 
to be. due to the work of the Black-and-Tans and other conditions? 

A. Very hard, sir. The people pay very high prices for food, 
and when they get it they can hardly use it. They can hardly eat 
the bread because it is so hard and black. 

Q. Could you get milk? 

A. No, I could not get milk for the baby. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Could you when you first went there? 

A. No, sir, I could not. At best I could get less than a half a 
pint of milk at night for the baby, sir. 

Q. Is this condition general? 

A. Yes, sir; many of the babies cannot get milk, sir. 

Q. Are any of them sick on account of it? 

A. Yes, many of them are, sir. 

Q. Are there not plenty of cattle in Ireland? 

A. Yes, lots of them, but the people cannot get milk in the 



Q. Do you know anything about the burning of creameries in 

A. Yes, sir, I do, sir. There were two burned near us, sir. 

Q. Where? Near your town? 

A. Yes, sir. There was one burned about two and a half miles 
from our town. It was a very fine creamery, built in 1914. 

Q. Senator Walsh: When was it burned? 

A. In Easter of this year. 

Q. Do you know why that creamery was burned? 

A. No, sir; except that they said there was barracks burned 
down near there, and they burned the creamery down. 

Q. As a reprisal? A. Yes, sir, as a reprisal. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Of course, even if the creamery is 
gone, the milk would still be there. 

A. But the milk cannot be got. 

Q. Of course, I can understand why there should be no butter 
and cheese, but there should be milk. 

Q. Mr. Malone: How was the milk delivered there? 

A. It was delivered from the creamery into the town. 

Q. The creamery would be the distributing point? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Commissioner Addams: But the creamery takes the milk and 
makes it into butter and cheese. 

Mr. D. F. Malone: But the creamery does more than that in Ire- 
land. It is a milk distributing center as well. 

Q. There is no doubt that you and the people in the town could 
not get the milk? A. No, sir, we could not get any, sir. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 



Q. Mr. Malone: Mr. Caddan, what is your full name? 
John Joseph Caddan. 


Nineteen now? 

I was nineteen on the seventeenth of June. 

Where were you born? 

Adare, County Limerick. 

Where are you living now? 

I am living in New York at present. 


At 63 West Seventh Avenue. 

Mr. Malone: Are you working in New York now? 



Q. What was the date of your enlistment in the R. I. C? 

A. On the third of February, 1920. 

Q. And where did you go to take your training? 

A. In Phoenix Park Depot, Dublin. 

Q. And what did your training consist of? 

A. Bomb practice, rifle practice, revolver firing — all the latest 
patents in revolvers, automatic and regular. 

Q. Bomb practice? 

A. Bomb practice. 

Q. Rifle practice? 

A. Yes, sir, rifle practice. 

Q. Were you given any police training? 

A. Yes, but the police training was not much. You were not 
compelled to study very much. I was only three months in the 

Q. Where were you assigned first? 

A. To Galway. 

Q. What part of Galway? 

A. Galway City. 

Q. When were you assigned to Galway City? 

A. On the twentieth of May, 1920. 



Q. What were the conditions in Gal way? 

A. Galway City was very quiet until the end of August. The 
first affair that started things was the sacking of Tuam. Galway 
City being the headquarters of the County of Galway, troops had 
to be sent from Galway to the country outside. And then this Tuam 
affair — 

Q. What affair? 

A. The Tuam affair, sir. The men had to go out in motor lorries 
for sacking the town. Two policemen had been shot out there. 1 
was not with them. 

Q. Why were you not with them? 

A. I was on light duty at the time. I had a severe cold, and 
stayed in the barracks. But when they came back, they told all 
about what they had burned. They said they burned public houses, 
and burned the town hall, and made a general wreck of the place. 

Q. Senator Walsh: How large is the town of Tuam? 

A. It is a fairly large size town. There is a cathedral there, 
and the Archbishop of Galway — about three thousand population, 
I think. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did you see it afterwards — the day after- 

A. Not the next day, but a few days afterwards. 

Q. Describe what you first saw when you visited it afterwards. 

A. When I entered Tuam I saw three frame buildings — big 
buildings — public houses, I think they were — nothing standing but 
*the walls. The town hall, — the clock was broken out of its place, 
and the town hall was wrecked in general. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was there glass broken in the shops? 

A. Oh, yes, indeed. 

Q. About how many houses were destroyed? 

A. About a dozen on the whole street. 

Q. Chairman Howe: The main street? 

A. The main street, yes. That is what I saw there. 

Q. Were any people killed at this sacking of Tuam? 

A. No, but there was a man dragged out of bed and threatened 
to be shot, and only for the intervention of the head constable in 
Tuam he would have been shot. 

Q. Mr. Malone: The head constable is a member of the R. I. C? 

A. .Yes, he is a member of the R. I. C. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Why did he stop them? 

A. Well, he didn't want to see the man murdered. 


Q. He was still a policeman to preserve law and order? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did he announce that the man had done no wrong? 

A. He did. 

Q. Mr. Malone: Do you remember the case of the man Krumm? 

A. Yes, Krumm was in Galway. 


Q. Senator Walsh: Wait a moment. You say that this was due 
to two policemen being shot? 

A. Yes, ambushed. 

Q. Now, how long before this night were these policemen am- 

A. They were ambushed about eleven o'clock at night. 

Q. Eleven o'clock the same night? 

A. Yes. And at about three o'clock the next morning the sack- 
ing began. 

Q. Now. where were these men ambushed? 

A. About ten miles outside of Tnam. I could not say definitely. 

Q. Were these men members of the Roval Irish Constabulary or 

A. Members of the R. I. C. 

Q. Did you know them? 

A. No. 

Q. Were they connected with your station? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Were they in Tuam? 

A. Yes, in Tuam? 

Q. Why were these men murdered, and by whom? 

A. I could not say. 

Q. Did you learn since? 

A. No. 

Q. Had they been offensive to the inhabitants of the town? 

A. I was not stationed in that town and could not say. 

Q. You do not know? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Except the fact that there were two killed? 

A. Yes, sir; only that there were two killed. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Was there a coroner's inquest? 

A. No. 

Q. Senator Walsh: They had been done away with at that time? 

A. Yes, they had. 



Q. Mr. Malone: Tell us about this man Krumm, the Black- 

A. Krumm was a Black-and-Tan. The Black-and-Tans are some- 
thing like soldiers. They wear a soldier's uniform with a black 
cap and belt, and that is why they are called Black-and-Tans. This 
man Krumm was one of the Black-and-Tans. He was a motor driver 
stationed in Dunmore, about ten miles outside of Galway. He was 
in town about two weeks getting his motor repaired. 

Q. About two weeks getting a motor repaired? 

A. Yes, sir, about two weeks. He took his time to it. He was a 
generally reckless fellow and drank a lot. I know of one case that 
he shot a sheep and brought him in to the barracks to be cooked. 

Q. You mean that when he got drunk he ran amuck? 

A. Yes, sir; he was very reckless then. This night I saw him 
with a bottle of poteen — 

Q. Mr. Witness, tell us to the best of your ability what that is. 

A. It is what you call mountain dew. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Irish whiskey? 

A. It is made in the mountains out of barley, I think. It is 
pretty strong stuff. Well, I saw him with this bottle of poteen, and 
he was passing it around, and he said that when that bottle was gone 
he would get another. About twelve o'clock he went up to the 

Q. Was he in police clothes? 

A. No, he was in civilian clothes. He went up to the station 
for one of the papers, the Dublin papers. They usually came in 
on the midnight train. I could not say exactly what happened at 
the station, because I was in bed. 1 

Q. Senator Walsh: Do you know the date of this? 

A. It was about September seventh. 

Q. He was stationed at your barracks? 

A. Yes, sir; he was staying there while he was in town getting 
his motor repaired. The next thing I knew one of the constables 
came up and gave the alarm, and said one of the constables was 
shot. And we all had to get up and dress and get our carbines. 
There were about fifty men in the barracks, and they ran amuck 

1 Krumm went to the station, and without provocation whipped out his 
revolver and began firing madly, shooting several persons before he was 
himself shot by a bystander. See evidence of three witnesses, pp. 83-84, 
130-131, 161-162. 

411 : 

Q. Tell us what they did. 

A. The whole fifty came out in the streets. 

Q. Under their officers? 

A. No officers; they all came out together. There was a D. 1. 

there, and he came out with them. 

Q. Who is a D. I.? 

A. The district inspector, District Inspector Crewe. 

Q. Mr. Malone: Was he in uniform? 

A. No, he was in plain clothes. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Were there any Black-and-Tans there? 

A. No, all R. I. C. 

Q. Mr. Malone: You say he was in civilian clothes? 

A. Yes, he was. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did they have motor lorries? 

A. No, they were walking. 

Q. What time of night was this? 

A. That was about one o'clock. 


They went from the barracks up to the house of a man named 
Broderick and knocked at the door, and he opened the door, and 
they demanded his son. A couple of them rushed in and grabbed 
the candle he had in his hand, and went upstairs to get his son. 
The son asked time to dress, and they brought him down. While 
they were upstairs, some other men sprinkled some petrol in the 
parlor and the hall. They marched the son down in front of them, 
and Broderick was told to stand where he was. The mother was 
told to stay in the back room where she was, and Broderick, the 
father, was ordered to stand in the hall. Then they touched a match 
to the house and it flashed up. The women began to scream, and 
they marched the son down to the railroad station to shoot him 
where Krumm had been shot. 

Q. Mr. Malone: Did they leave Broderick and his wife in the 
burning house? 

A. Well, they could not get out through the flames very easily. 

Q. They had put petrol about the house? 

A. Yes, they had. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did they get out? 

A. I was just coming to that. They took the son up toward ihe 
station, but he got away, and they fired after him, and I think 
wounded him in the leg, but I am not sure of that. He got away. 


And then they turned around and saw a crowd of neighbors trying 
to put out the flames, and they fired into the crowd. After that, 
what they did I did not witness, for I went back to the barracks, 
but I heard the next day — the men were telling about it themselves. 
After that they came to a place where there were two young men 
in a house, and went up and demanded them. I do not know their 

Q. Two young men in the Broderick house? 
A. No, in another house. They brought these young men down 
to the same place where Krumm was shot and stood them up against 
the wall there. One of the men was named Conway, I think. The 
order was given to fire, and just as the order was given, Conway 
fell forward on his face, and he saved his life miraculously. 

Q. The man fell on his face just as they fired and escaped death? 
A. Yes. Some of them said, "Let them have another volley," 
and the leader said, "No, we have wasted enough ammunition on 

Q. To come back to this Broderick case. Was the son a member 
of the Irish Republican Army, or was Broderick or his son impli- 
cated in the killing of that man Krumm? 

A. No, I do not think so. They probably knew nothing about 
him, for he was a new man in the town — he was just in there 


Q. Did your police force make any investigation of the killing 
of this man Krumm? 

A. They did, afterwards. 

Q. But not before the killing of this man and the firing of 
Broderick's house? 

A. No, none whatever. 

Q. What happened after this man Krumm left the barracks? 
You said he had been drinking before he left. 

A. Yes. I heard afterwards that he left the barracks and stopped 
for another drink before he went up to the station. He got up to 
the station platform and while waiting for a paper fired on the 
crowd, killing a man and wounding another. 

Senator Walsh: Yes, we have heard of that incident from other 



Q. Mr. Malone: Was District Inspector Crewe promoted after 

A. Yes. he was promoted about a week after this. 

Q. Senator Walsh: You were an eye witness to this? 

A. Yes. I was an eye witness to the setting fire of Broderick's 

house and the firing into the crowd. 

Q. Did you participate in any of it? 

A. No. I did not. 

Q. Was there any officer to lead the military in all this? 

A. No, there was not. 

Q. It was just mob action? 

A. It was just mob action. 


Afterwards they came down to this man's house — Quirk I believe 
was his name — and they went in and told him to come out of bed, 
and did not give him time to dress, and dragged him out and 
brought him clown to the quays. 

Q. What are the quays? 

A. The quays, the Galway quays. Galway is a seaside place, 
and the quays run down to the water. They took this man down and 
they stood him up against a lamp post and put twenty-seven shots 
into him. 

Q. Who was this man Quirk? 

A. I believe he was a Sinn Feiner. 

Q. He had nothing to do with the shooting of that Black-and- 
Tan at the station? 

A. Oh. no. of course not. He was home in bed. 


Q. Mr. Malone: Now, I believe there was a general, a British 
general, who came down there. 

A. Yes, the next day there was a British general came down and 
spoke to us in the day room. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Why do you think he was a general? 

A. Because he was so well guarded. He had two motor lorries 
of soldiers there to guard him. He had two other officers with him. 
The county inspector was there and two district inspectors, and all 


the men in the barracks were there. And he started to talk about 
this business. He said, "This country is ruled by gunmen, and they 
must be put down." He talked about giving home rule to Ireland, 
and he said home rule could not be given until all of these gunmen 
were put down, and he called on the R. I. C. to put them down. 
He asked them what they required in the barracks, and that what- 
ever they wanted he would give them, and that they were also going 
to get a raise in pay. And they said they needed machine guns, and 
he said that they would get them, and also tanks and more men — 
men who had been in the army during the war and who knew how 
to shoot to kill; and he said they would be the right men in the 
right place. 

Q. Who spoke for the Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A. There was a sergeant, I think, who did most of the talking. 
But the men all spoke up and said they needed this and that. 

Q. They needed additional protection? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did they get it? 

A. Yes, there was about two hundred Black-and-Tans sent down 
to that barracks. They got more money than we did, but he prom- 
ised us that we would get a rise in pay. 

Q. Senator Walsh: How much? 

A. Seven shillings a day. 

Q. In addition? 

A. Yes, in addition. 

Q. Chairman Howe: In addition to what they were getting? 

A. Yes, sir; that would be forty-nine shillings a week more — 
about two pound ten. 


Q. Mr. Malone: What was the general character of the Black- 

A. Well, they were generally very careless fellows, and did not 
give a hang about what they did. They were mostly over there to 
enjoy themselves. 

Q. The Commissioner: Were they mostly young men? 

A. They were most all young men. 

Q. What was their general character? 

A. Some of them were got up for robbery at the depot — at 
Phoenix Park. And some of them were sent to the lunatic asylum. 
I believe some of them were ex-convicts. 


Q. Senator Walsh: How do you know that, — from what they 
said about each other? 

A. Yes, what they said between themselves. They had sev- 
eral conflicts in the Depot between the Black-and-Tans and the 
Irish troops that were there, but it did not come out. 

Q. Chairman Howe: The Constabulary did not have very 
much respect for the Black-and-Tans? 

A. No, no. 

Q. Did they fraternize with them? 

A. They had a couple of fights there. 

Q. But did they go out together and associate together? 

A. no, they did not associate together. They were not 
friendly by any means. Only, of course, they had to go together 
on duty. 


Q. Commissioner Addams: How old must you be before you 
can become a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A. At least eighteen. 

Q. Eighteen ? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Were many of your men as young as that? 

A. No, I don't believe they were. If your father had served 
on the force you could join at eighteen. If he did not, nineteen 
is the limit. 

Q. How old were most of the men on the force? 

A. They varied greatly. Twenty-five is about the average, I 

Q. Senator Walsh: How old are the Black-and-Tans? 

A. Oh, various ages. Some of the Black-and-Tans were up to 

Q. How many Black-and-Tans were in the barracks before 
you resigned? 

A. There was only one, Krumm, and he was only there for 
two weeks. 

Q. Senator Walsh: But you say they were promised? 

A. Yes, but they came afterwards. 

Q. So that you have no knowledge of them while you were in 
that barracks? 

A. No, sir. But while I was there they stocked up the can- 
teen in the barracks for their coming:. 



Q. Was there a canteen in your barracks'.'' A. Yes. 

Q. When you were on the force? 

A. Yes, when I was on the force. 

Q. Did they always have that in the Irish Constabulary bar- 
racks? A. Oh, no. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was that one of the new munitions of war? 

A. Yes. it was that. 

Q. When did they open up canteens in the Royal Irish Con- 
stabulary barracks? 

A. About a year ago. 

Q. So for about a year they have served liquor in the bar- 
racks of the R. I. C? 

A. Yes. 

Q. What kind of liquor? 

A. Lots of liquors. Bass' ale, Guinness' stout, and lots more. 

Q. Were there any restrictions on the amount of it an officer 
could get? 

A. No, no restrictions. They were up there, some of them, 
most of the night drinking. 

Q. Did they drink before going on duty? A. Yes. 

Q. To what extent does that exist throughout Ireland? 

A. I couldn't say, sir, but it was common where I was. 

Q. Who runs this canteen? 

A. It is run by the R. I. C. 

Q. By the permission of the Government? 

A. Yes, by the permission of the Government. 

Q. And I suppose there is some clerk in charge? 

A. There is a constable in charge. He is sitting there at all 

Q. And there is no limit to what you can buy in quantity or 

A. No limit, — no limit at all. Now, the next night after Krumm 
was shot, curfew was enforced in Galway. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Very good, but this is very important. 
You were there in that barracks how long? 

A. About three months. 

Q. You say there were fifty men there? 


A. Yes. fifty men. 

Q. How many of them were drinking men? 

A. 0. the whole lot of ihem except myself. 

Q. It was a fine atmosphere for a nineteen-year-old hoy to go 

A. Yes, charming. 

Q. And all these men were constantly in touch with a saloon 
in the barracks? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Mr. Malone: Senator, would you ask the witness if they 
sold what is known as hard liquor in the barracks? 

A. The Witness: Hard liquor? They sold all kinds of liquor 
that are sold in Ireland. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is there anything else besides liquor served? 

A. yes. there is bread and crackers and things like that also. 

Q. Now. to just what extent and how continuously were these 
men under the influence of liquor? 

A. Well, during their idle time. Some of them had only four 
hours" duty during the day. The rest of the time they usually had 
liquor in them. 

Q. So that their life consisted of doing their duty on the 
streets of the city and spending their spare time in the liquor 
store in the barracks and in bed? 

A. Yes, and in bed. 


Q. Mr. Malone: After the Tuam affair, do you remember the 
affair of the constable who resigned? 

A. Well, yes, that was out in Tuam. I was not a witness to it. 
This man, his name was Roddy, had resigned in Tuam after the 
town was wrecked, and took a position with the city council. A 
short time after the Black-and-Tans went to his home and got him 
and brought him out to the lime pits near the town, and they 
flogged him. And then some time after they did that, they flogged 
him again, and told him to clear out of the town with his wife and 
family, which he had to do. 

Q. You say he got a job on the city council? 

A. Yes, after he resigned, he got a job on the city council, — 
that is, the Sinn Fein county council. 



What were the reasons for his resigning from the R.